My Hypothesis About Sudden Unexplained Weight Gain in Cancer

leftduetostupidmods

Question:

If increased metabolism decreases risk of cancer, then what about hyperthyroid that increases tremendously metabolism but decreases vit D levels thus increasing risk of cancer?

sas-schatzi

Bump

sas-schatzi

Kayb, please, go back and read the earlier studies before I got to your study. SummerAngel and I were talking about Leaky Gut. The study associated with the reading in that area talks about how the gut microbiota can alter the gut wall which allows endotoxins to cross into the circulatory system. Those little buggers travel all through the body. Yup, the healthy microbiome is the key to health. Not that they're isn't a chain of a thousand things. But it's a big thing. Kayb, I know you are busier than a farmer in haying season, but would so love to have you read from the first post. Each study lead to the next study. Nice continuity. Then if just asking doesn't work, I can pull the schoolyard response, I looked at your studies, now your turn to look at mine nanananannnhhhh" ( LOL).

Seachain I know you will pop in and say it's the immune system. The dysbiosis the start of the chain of events that negatively impacts the immune system. As the immune system is stressed and challenged by changes caused by other things, it then is weakened. Once weakened, what it's supposed to protect, can't be adequately protected.

mel147

Hi, all -

Stumbled upon this thread tonight and have been fascinated reading through it and looking up some of the studies. I have a question - now what can we do with all this info? What's the best plan to get the gut in good shape? Is there a different, individualized plan for each person and if there is, who is the best doctor/resource to help with that? And what about blood sugar issues? I've haven't crossed over to Type 2 diabetic yet, but it seems like I've been on the edge for years. Blood sugar issues run in my family - we've got the overweight Type 2 and the exercising, lean Type 2, to name two. I'm not overweight, although I have gained some weight since the summer time. That trip to Disney in June did it! I ate all sorts of delicious foods and too many of them and now it's 6 months later and we just had the holidays so the scale keeps creeping up. Seems like if I just "look" at a muffin I gain a pound. I'm Celiac, so I'm gluten free and have trouble with dairy, so I'm also dairy free. I'm not menopausal yet. Had PCOS and always have had bad PMS - when that hits, the carb/sweet cravings take over and I am ravenous. It feels like I've been battling my hormones forever. Somehow I feel like all this is connected. Would like to see how many with PCOS end up with breast cancer. It's scary since my youngest has now been diagnosed with PCOS and she has gluten and dairy intolerance. She seems to be on a similar path as me, except from a much younger age. I had loads of antibiotics when I was little due to asthmatic bronchitis, she had them due to ear and sinus infections and strep. Wish we had the answers! Thanks for a great thread with lots of great studies. I've printed some to bring to my doctor.

sas-schatzi

Hi mel, it's been awhile. Are you drowning in the studies?

Well, what I learned is----

avoid firepits, smoking, and charred food---That basically covers the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. But petroleum products are in soooo many things.

challenged use of antibiotics----decimates the biome.

Take a quality probiotic.

Limit alcohol as it messes with the biome.

I'm asking my doc on the next visit for Glucophage.

Fallleaves

Hi, I'm down a rabbit hole with melatonin (seems like the wonder hormone!), but thought I'd pop up for air and chime in. I'm with Mel147 in thinking a lot of this is connected. I think exercise plays a role, too. This study showed that exercise reduced circulating sex hormones and increased sex hormone binding globulin (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26541144). The effect was modest, but I have a feeling with these illnesses, it's a lot of different things at work that add up. Surprisingly there doesn't seem to be an increased risk of breast cancer with PCOS, but there is an increased risk of endometrial cancer. Interestingly they are looking at metformin as a treatment. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26674650)

There also seems to be increased insulin resistance in women with PCOS (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23315061) and advanced glycation end products (AGEs) have been implicated in causing PCOS. "AGEs have been proposed to be among the main intermediaries involved in several diseases, such as metabolic syndrome, type 2 diabetes mellitus, cardiovascular disease, ovarian aging, inflammation, neurodegenerative disorders and PCOS." (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24173721) They are produced when food is cooked at high, dry heat and "Animal-derived foods that are high in fat and protein are generally AGE-rich and prone to new AGE formation during cooking. In contrast, carbohydrate-rich foods such as vegetables, fruits, whole grains, and milk contain relatively few AGEs, even after cooking."(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC370456...) Also, Meat is linked to an increased risk of diabetes ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21831992) . Which may be due to what this study showed: "Processed meat was associated with higher fasting glucose, and unprocessed red meat was associated with both higher fasting glucose and fasting insulin concentrations after adjustment for potential confounders" (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26354543) And red meat may increase the risk for metabolic syndrome and inflammation. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19074209)

sas-schatzi

KayB page 3, most of the posts. I agree.

sas-schatzi

kayB please, post that study . Hmmmm if they're is one exception, then they're may be others. What's the mechanism?

Fallleaves

I think this might be the study Kayb is referring to:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/15123...

"In the new study, the Penn team, including first author Jashodeep Datta, MD, a general surgery resident and a member of the Czerniecki laboratory, isolated immune cells from 95 women with invasive HER2-positive breast cancer, and analyzed the cells' ability to mount a Th1 response against the HER2 growth factor receptor protein. HER2-positive breast cancer cells overexpress the HER2 receptor to help drive their rapid proliferation.

The team found that, by a standard measure, the cells from women with recently recurrent cancer that had not yet been re-treated had only about a tenth of the anti-HER2 responsivity compared to that seen in women whose HER2+ breast cancer had not recurred for at least two years following treatment.

The low anti-HER2 responsivity seen in the women with recurrent cancer was not part of a broader immune suppression. "We detected no other immune deficit -- just the deficit in the anti-HER2 response," Czerniecki said.

The findings complement those from two other studies published earlier this year by Czerniecki and his colleagues. In one, the scientists found that the Th1 responsivity against HER2 tends to vary strikingly from high responsivity in cancer-free and early-stage HER2-positive breast cancer patients, to low responsivity in advanced HER2-positive breast cancer patients. In the other study, patients whose tumors shrank during standard pre-surgery drug treatment had much stronger anti-HER2 responsivity, compared to patients whose tumors responded less completely to that drug treatment.

How patients lose their anti-HER2 responsivity during the formation and growth of a HER2-positive tumor isn't yet clear. "The thinking is that the patient's anti-HER2 T cells somehow become exhausted and die or otherwise stop responding," Czerniecki said. "We're trying to determine the mechanism, but we already know that we can 'fill the tank' with vaccines to restore that specific responsivity to HER2."

sas-schatzi

Thanks Falls

mel147

Hi Sas! Good tips. Good luck with the glucophage - hope that helps!

Thanks for the studies Fall. Just read them all. Fascinating about the different cooking methods creating different amounts of AGEs. I've never been one to grill much at all so I thought I was in the clear with that. Looks like that's not the only thing to avoid.

Kayb - please let me know if you have any threads on blood sugar I can check out.

Happy New Year

sas-schatzi

Mel Page three re: glucose. Page one re: PAH's

sas-schatzi

TwoHobbies

As Mel says , what do we do with all this. Having had a local recurrence, I researched and researched trying to figure out what I could do to prevent metastasis in addition to medication and medical treatment. For ER BC, I concluded not gaining weight, exercising and keeping blood glucose low was seen in the literature time and again. Here's a study that talks about blood sugar needing to be below 87. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC366421... I decided those would be my essential focus. For me , although I've never had "high" blood sugar(over100) it was routinely in the 90s and I found I have to reduce carbs quite significantly to stay below 87. By that I mean almost no added sugar, no pasta, no bread no rice or very occasionally.

The micro biome is in such infancy stages I don't know what to do with that I have followed it a lot because my son has Crohn's and they see that Crohns patients have altered gut flora. I have spent loads of money on probiotics for him and sadly, I can't see that it helps. I think I would focus more on supporting the gut flora by avoiding unnecessary probiotics and eating whole vegetables and fruits and fermented foods. It's fiber that feeds the good guys.

If anyone is having gut issues it may help to avoid gluten. A recent study showed that those genetically prone to celiac but without celiac have higher levels of zonulin which is what "opens the gates" in the intestine if anyone is interested I'll look for the study.

TwoHobbies

Here's another topic I'm interested in, fasting and cancer. See if this link works. If not, Google Longo and fasting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LGafhm1cuSI&feature=youtu.be

mel147

TwoHobbies - Yikes - I'm in trouble if blood sugar needs to be below 87. My fasting one is usually in the 90's and up to 106. I feel like I need to get serious about this but it's so hard. Could you clarify - is it since your recurrence that you have been focusing on not gaining weight, exercise and keeping your blood sugars lower or did you start that after your initial diagnosis?

It is a bummer that the probiotics don't seem to have helped your son with the Crohn's. Is he gluten free? I'm glad you mentioned fermented foods - I had forgotten about those. I keep thinking I can eat treats here and there, but I think it is not a good idea for me. I made some gluten free cookies tonight and had a few and I just feel yucky now. It's just not worth it.

I'm off to bed now, but I will check out the topic of fasting and cancer tomorrow. Good night, all.

ChiSandy

I just started an AI (letrozole) yesterday. Even if I am vigilant with my diet and exercise and manage not to gain weight, I am almost certain to get elevated LDL (52% incidence of that side effect). If that happens and I must go on a statin, then my blood glucose would be elevated. But if I take metformin for that, it would ratchet up my LDL. (I also have osteopenia, and if I don't treat that, the AIs would make it progress to osteoporosis. But I have GERD and if I take bone-strengthening drugs, it would become erosive esophagitis, which could be a precursor to esophageal cancer--a fast and awful way to go).

Sigh. When we were younger, we could fix one condition without screwing up or inducing another. I realize that old age begins when one must sort out one’s various ailments and decide which ones to reluctantly accept without treatment in order to treat the most life-threatening ones.

leftduetostupidmods

ChiSandy, I hear you. I already had osteopenia due to severe hyperthyroidism prior to taking AIs. I managed to not have it advance too much though by taking 5,000 UI Vit D3 daily and 1,200 mg calcium (you must divide it in two doses as the body cannot process more than 600 mg at a time and the rest gets to the kidneys). The lower spine T stayed the same, the hip T had a minor deterioration but not even bringing it to dangerous high so it would cross over into osteoporosis. My LDL was mildly elevated, HDL slightly low and my LDL/HDL ratio slightly out of whack for the entire time I was on AIs even if I was on mostly vegan low fat lifestyle diet. After I went off AIs I went on Atkins - hiiiigh amounts of fat, about 70-75% of my intake with very low carb (about 10%). Fast forward 3 weeks after starting Atkins - 5 weeks of being off AIs - LDL normal, HDL high, LDL/HDL ratio excellent. And the surprise 5 months after that? Dexascan shows hip has NO MORE osteopenia, there is still some in the lower spine but very very mild.

About blood glucose - I am not sure if I mentioned this, but my decision of going on Atkins didn't have only to do with losing weight, but also because my thought process was: PET scan is based on cancer cells being sugar avid, that is why they gorge themselves with that glucose solution and can be seen on the scan. If I reduce glucose in the blood to an absolute minimum, then I will starve whatever cancer cells might be still floating around, no matter of their Er/Pr/HerNeu status or type of cancer. I even managed to manipulate my own thinking process into seeing poison whenever I look at cake, lol

TwoHobbies

Mel I was exercising at the time of my recurrence and my doctor was adamant about not gaining weight. I was within my BMI but right at the top when I was diagnosed. I actually lost 13 lbs right before my second occurence. I was ticked off for sure because I did everything they said and I took my tamoxifen every day. I think tamoxifen was doing nothing for me because I didn't have any hot flashes or side effects. So, after that the doctor said exercise more, and I've gotten more serious about the sugar and carbs.

Chisandy it does seem like you fix one thing and another occurs, but I can concur with Seachain that these are not inevitable. I had osteopenia before I started the AI and I just had my two year follow up scan and I was stable. I take 4000 IUs Vitamin D3 and I exercise a lot, mostly walking, but some running and some weights. My cholesterol has gone up but just barely over 200 and I finally got my HDL up to good levels for the first time in my life. I'm not sure if that is the exercise or the diet or both.

Seachain that's how I motivate myself - wondering if everything I put in my mouth is going to kill me! T

Dee2010

Seachain - have you looked into the ketogenic diet for starving cancer cells? It is based on a diet that was initially developed in the 1920s for children who couldn't take medication for epilepsy, and is now being considered for cancer starvation. For example, my naturopath has suggested it for me at 25 g net carbs, 70-80 g protein, and 120 g fat. There's a group under the "Fitness and Getting Back Into Shape" forum, but it isn't very active.

ChiSandy

I switched from two 1000mg. Tums (calcium carbonate) per day to 400 mg. calcium citrate/500 IU D3 three times a day (TID), and added both a 2000 IU D3 cap in the morning and 400 mg. magnesium at bedtime (also helps prevent foot cramps). Reason I switched forms of calcium was because I must take Dexilant (a PPI) for GERD, which suppresses production of stomach acid--and calcium carbonate requires stomach acid for absorption, while calcium citrate does not. Unfortunately, the Tums were pleasantly chewable whereas even the “petites” version of cal citrate are like horse pills and tricky to swallow because of their size and sharp edges.

Week after next (this week I have an out-of-town houseguest) I will start going to an OsteoStrong center for evaluation and an exercise plan. And as soon as I can figure out how to extract my Fitbit Surge from the box I will start using the treadmill and upright bike. I already do at least five stair-climbs per day. Holding off on weight training till I see what the LE doc says this Tuesday. Meanwhile, on Jan. 1 I resumed my low-carb (“dead animals & leaves”) diet--the only kind on which I’ve ever been able to lose weight and keep it off >2yrs. It’d be nice if I could lose more than the 2 lbs. I gained on the cruise (lost that already), but I’d be satisfied to simply keep from gaining weight on letrozole.

TwoHobbies

Speaking of sugar...in the news today. Sugars seem to lead to breast cancer and metastasis. And remember that sugar is not only in sweets. It's in pretty much everything packaged from bread to sauces to yogurt.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160104080034.htm

sas-schatzi

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160104080034.htm

TH''s now it's hot

mel147

TwoHobbies - I sure would have been ticked off, too, having done all that and still getting a recurrence. Very frustrating! Article on sugar was quite interesting - thanks for the link. I started out strong with my cutback on sugar, but then got lazy with it. I've been doing better lately, but now after reading the article, I'm feeling like I should cut out everything with it instead of just cutting back. Argh!

bcincolorado

I was 117 lbs when diagnosed.  After surgeries and being on hormonal meds now for 6 years I have gained 50 pounds.  My oncologist basically laughed when I told him I have been trying to lose it.  I live on probably 1000 calories or less a day and just can't drop it.  According to him the meds affect if we can lose weight and it makes it about improssisble to get rid of it no matter what you do.

marijen

I wouldn't like it if a doctor laughed at me because I was trying to help myself..... what is funny about an extra 50 pounds. Well it's just a first impression, you know him, I don't.

leftduetostupidmods

bcincolorado - same story here. I was 120 lbs and put on 70 lbs. I was eating between 800 and 1000 calories a day while taking AIs just to keep my weight and not put on more. Once I stopped taking it, went on LCHF diet and lost 50 lbs in one year. Still have 20 more to lose and as soon as I recover from this surgery I'll get on it.

sas-schatzi

Those on the science forum, they're two threads that have significant following. The Toradol threadand this thread. Why? Because we create dialogue. And we diverge.. Just wanted to let you know..............

sas-schatzi

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/02/03/vaginal-bacteria-c-section-natural-birth/

How C-Section Babies Could Benefit From (Yes) Vaginal Bacteria

________________________________________________________________

http://www.nature.com/articles/nm.4039.epdf?referrer_access_token=q12zqdaVo_Wnj3wBULxhVdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0N52P-sU0SaylioNKJaxyGdBjwIdD_rbzx5nhtex-QKrHAO2un_jL6-UpeN7Qo0QDNxFa_t1l2-A2mH6Q87ASAkyxKGss-Jh6rh75XTAypd4WFa5rZhjpbRdbG1btRwJZRe1g2ulmrAgSSAu4M_-xnY1sKMdEk3nXxa0figQ-KnokjzxlHc5SQC6hvDlyuAv88%3D&tracking_referrer=www.nature.com

__________________________________________________________

Using a Mother's Microbes to Protect Cesarean Babies

By

Sandra Blakeslee

February 1, 2016 11:00 am

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/02/01/post-cesarean-bacteria-transfer-could-change-health-for-life-study-shows/?_r=1

___________________________________________________________________-

Reciprocal interactions of the intestinal microbiota and immune system.

Maynard CL¹, Elson CO, Hatton RD, Weaver CT.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22972296

________________________________________________

PLoS One. 2012;7(6):e36466. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0036466. Epub 2012 Jun 13.

A metagenomic approach to characterization of the vaginal microbiome signature in pregnancy.

Aagaard K¹, Riehle K, Ma J, Segata N, Mistretta TA, Coarfa C, Raza S, Rosenbaum S, Van den Veyver I, Milosavljevic A, Gevers D, Huttenhower C, Petrosino J, Versalovic J.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22719832

sas-schatzi

The docs figuring out that the microbiome of the donor and recipient affect whether the transplant will survive or fail.

http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2016/06/21/Microorganisms-affect-transplant-acceptence-rejection/8741466523032/

Microorganisms affect transplant acceptence, rejection

Although treating donor and recipient mice with antibiotics before transplants helped survival, researchers are unsure what types of bacteria speed organ rejection.

By Stephen Feller | June 21, 2016 at 2:57 PM