I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

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  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    What a fantastic article Carrots.  It is a pretty stunning article and sadly......I think most of it is spot on.  Painful to think we can't all wake up, at least not in time.  But I do hope that door will be solidly open for the person coming next.......and that they can continue to build and enlarge the legacy.

    Jackie

  • RetiredLibby
    RetiredLibby Member Posts: 1,992
    edited December 2013


    I agree with every word in the article, C4C. It IS all about a BLACK man in the WHITE House and always has been. I don't agree that the opposition has been just because he is a Democrat (in truthm he is a liberal Republican). I disagree with people who say weakly, "Well, it is just that the political polarization is so high in this country." And why is that, you might ask. Because there is a BLACK man in the WHITE House.


    Demographic reality works against the racists. In a few decades (30 years or so) this country will no longer have a white majority (cue exploding racist heads). Welcome to the future! And they cannot stand that. But that ship has sailed, that train has left the station - and it is going to run them over. And that is not a good thing or a bad thing, it just is. I hope it will be a good thing for this country.


    And in the meantime, so what if the website is slow. The rollout of Medicare Part D - an unfunded mandate brought to you by the same giggling fool who brought you two unfunded wars and hundreds of thousands of dead and maimed people, including thousands of American soldiers - was a disaster. But the white boys' club said soothingly that it would be all right, that such a massive undertaking would necessarily have some glitches. The hypocrisy is breathtaking and bald.


    People who call out the racists who are excoriating our president are called racists (yeah, wingnuts, that doesn't work). It isn't racist to call out the blatant racism clearly evident when people post pictures of the President of the United States as a witch doctor (no, I don't want to hear whines about pictures of Bush the Lesser as Hitler - does not even BEGIN to compare). It isn't racist to call out people for calling the Obama children ( CHILDREN, for God's sake) "gangstas" and "trash." Look in the mirror on that one, lady. It isn't racist to dislike the policies of the President, but it is racist to dislike them because he is black (Romneycare, anyone? Heritage Foundation health care plan, anyone?).


    *SIGH* It is a measure of Barack and Michelle Obama's integrity and patriotism and dedication to doing good in the world that they signed on for this - and a second term of it! How many of us would stand up and willingly take on the name calling, the real and credible threats to your life and the lives of your wife and children, the vile rhetoric spewed at you every single day from people who know better. Yeah, your constituents might have elected to you vomit hatred all over the President, but what about your self-touted love of country?


    I'm glad that some people are waking up.

  • alexandria58
    alexandria58 Member Posts: 1,588
    edited December 2013


    I do disagree a little with the article.


    I absolutely agree that the way the Republican and the tea party reacted to him is based on racism. Terrible terrible things have been said about him; he has been treated with disrespect in a way that makes my blood boil.


    I personally love Obama. I think he's a brilliant man who has done remarkable things for this country. However, the fact that I personally honor and respect him doesn't mean I can't disagree with some of his policies. The left does have some legitimate policy differences with him. He is a right of center moderate, and frankly, we need FDR type policies not Clinton type policies.


    I am supporting the ACA but reluctantly because I wanted what Vermont is putting into place: a single payer system. I agree more with Elizabeth Warren on what we should do with the banks and interest. Obama has given in to the "we have to lower the deficit" mantra at a time when what we should be doing is putting people back to work - cutting more and more government jobs when there is nothing to replace them is not how it happens. I do not agree with the drone policies, and I think the torturers under Bush should have been tried for what they did.


    Here's my final counter to that article: if I support Obama's policies that I disagree with because he's our first black president, isn't that also, in some way,racist? If I would oppose something he's is doing if he were white, shouldn't I act the same even though he's black?

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited December 2013


    C4C - what a wonderful article. THANK YOU for linking to it, the "takeaway lines" for me are:


    And I’m still rooting for the best, smartest and most decent man who has been president in my lifetime. I pray for his health care reform to succeed. I pray for his immigration reform to succeed. I’m amazed he’s gotten anything done, but he has, even while the lynch mob gathers again and again to laugh, lie and spit and claim he’s “failed” while “liberal” commentators nod sagely and talk about his “mistakes” as if President Obama has been playing on a level playing field.


    I understand what alexandria is saying about single payer, but with Baucus leading the Senate fight, and the opposition considering he was considered on OUR side ( stop laughing), and the lobbying of the insurance & pharmaceutical industry, it was just short of a miracle we got the ACA. Obama put his Presidency on the line EARLY in his first administration for this one, and I still honor him for that.


    Maybe, when Warren has more power, and the rest of the country wakes up and realizes the opportunities to change our culture into a more CARING COMMUNITY, we will amend, grow into, Medicare for all.


    My favorite Leonard Cohen lines:


    Ring the bells that still can ring


    There is no perfect offering


    Everything has a crack in it


    It's how the light gets in.

  • alexandria58
    alexandria58 Member Posts: 1,588
    edited December 2013


    But liberals, generally, support what Obama does. I agree that he has been thwarted in much that he's wanted to do. We know we're not getting everything we want, but we also know that political realities may mean we have to take baby steps. I do agree that the ACA may have been the best we could get. He will go down as a great president - which doesn't mean I can't disagree with some of his policy choices.

  • RetiredLibby
    RetiredLibby Member Posts: 1,992
    edited December 2013

    Alexandria, I don't object to people opposing some of his policies.  I, for one, was a big fan of the bumper sticker that said, "Forward - and a little to the left."  People can oppose his policies because they oppose them and that doesn't make them racist.  But when they supported the very same policies when they were advanced by the right (Romneycare and the Heritage  Foundation plan a case in point) and now say, "OMG, it's the end of the world, OMG OMG OMB, SOSHULIZM!"  Then that is a pretty good indicator that they oppose them because of some other factor.  People rooting for the government to fail, rooting for this country to fail because there is a black president in the White House - that's racism.

    Supporting his policies just because he is black and not supporting them if a white person put them forward is racism.  I don't know anyone who supports his policies just because he is black. I support *some* of his policies that I am disappointed with because they are the best we have - they are better than the alternative.  For example, I too am disappointed in the ACA.  I too would have preferred single payer.  But I still support the ACA because it insures *some* people who weren't insured before.  I like Sunnyflowers' quote of Leonard Cohen - it isn't perfect, but it is what we have and we can strive for better.  And I oppose some others of his policies, like drone strikes.  But if we were attacked and he were to insist that we declare war on a country that had nothing to do with the attack and lying about it, you'd better believe I'd be right out there in the thick of the demonstrations.  If he wanted to end WIC, you'd better believe I'd be right out there with letters to my Congressional delegation and trumpeting my opposition from the rooftops.

    But the massive, overwhelming disrespect of the President, shocking in its rudeness ("you lie!," "I can't even look at you right now!" and all of the other thousands of disrespectful words and actions by public figures who should know better) - THAT is racism.  They LOATHED Clinton, but they weren't so disrespectful to his face as they are to The Black Man in the White House.  And the racially-charged pictures of the President and his family ... oh yeah, that is racism.  The hanging of the President in effigy as a Hallowe'en decoration in someone's yard - oh yeah, that is racism ... because hanging a George Bush dummy would be disgusting and wrong, but there isn't the racial history behind it like there is lynching a black man. 


  • crazy4carrots
    crazy4carrots Member Posts: 5,324
    edited December 2013


    We folks in the ROTW (Rest of the World) are well aware that Americans in general (yes, this is a generality) don't care to look outside their borders, nor care at all what the ROTW thinks of them. The ACA is a case in point: in overhauling a healthcare "system" that costs nearly twice as much as that in other first world countries and leaves more than 5% of the population without access, would the U.S. even consider looking at what works and putting together a unique "made in the USA" system to cover every person? Nope!


    The only times the U.S. cares about the ROTW is in cobbling together a "coalition of the willing" to wage an illegitimate war (of which my country said NO WAY!).


    The ROTW was thrilled in 2008 to see a black man in the White House. Maybe, at long last, the evils of racism would be laid to rest. Nope! Now it was A-OKAY to exhibit hatred of the black man, by cloaking it in policy and politics. But what gave the racists away was the abject disrespect paid to the First Lady and the girls, let alone the "you lie" etc.


    The ROTW is also seeing how a divided government, and one political party determined to say "No" at every turn, is not working for the betterment of the country. Those checks and balances we learned about in school sounded like a wise and effective safety net. Alas, your founding fathers had too much faith in the integrity and patriotism of those elected to Congress -- at least those in the 21st century.

  • RetiredLibby
    RetiredLibby Member Posts: 1,992
    edited December 2013

    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/president-obama-rodeo-clown-poll-101194.html

    More racism, all the more disgusting because people think this is funny.  The same people who would be clutching their pearls and gobbling in outrage if this had been done when Bush the Lesser was in office. Remember the shrieks of outrage whenever anyone made fun of him?  "You don't have to respect the man, but you have to respect the Commander-in-Chief!  You have to respect the office of the president!"  Yeah, until it is the Black Man in the White House, then it's OK to talk trash about him.  They make me sick to share a nationality with them.

    ETA - And I agree with you, C4C.  I have seen it throughout my life.  My favorite illustration of U.S. blindness to the rest of the world happened 28 years ago was when I was in Ohio after my first tour overseas with the State Department.  I was in a store purchasing something and the woman asked who my employer was.  I said, "The State Department" and she looked at me blankly and said, "State Department of what?"  "The United States State Department."  "The United States State Department of what?"  "I'm a U.S. diplomat."  "Oh, a diplomat.  What country are you from?"  "The United States."  "Really?"  *SIGH*



  • alexandria58
    alexandria58 Member Posts: 1,588
    edited December 2013


    RL - absolutely agree that the Repugs conduct is rooted in racism, that the disrespect shown to this President is unparallelled, that it disgusts me and horrifies me. I do not believe that the Repugs opposition to him is because of policy - since much, including the ACA, of what he has proposed has come from moderate Republicans. I agree that his treatment has been equivalent to a slow lynching.


    However - I was just taking a little issue with the writer of the article who was dumping on those of us on the left because we'd like to nudge Obama's policies a little more towards our side of the divide.

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    No disagreement from my interior.  It would be wonderful to see how things might have played out had there been at least a bit of cohesion in our two parties....actually and I'm sure it is most of us, there might have been a SLEW of things we wouldn't have liked.  I do think many of the lesser would pale a good deal for some of the bigger successes --- like NRA put in its place and not allowed to get away with their murder and maiming and distortion of the second admendment. and as well a better overall health system ( single payer - great ) but even a smoother, easier to get out ACA. 

    It is wonderful that so many people can say they are not racist -- of course, they are just trying it on for the fun of it and aren't serious at all.  You people make me puke.  You are going to be the disgusting dregs of humanity simply because of your in-humanity.  Of course, a lot of hard work is done so that one doesn't have to "see" themselves how they truly are.  Once you have this cognition/recognition, you are forever ( Oh-God, help me ) responsible and that would be and has been so troublesome, in this case with a President I certainly didn't elect.  Most of us are going along with things we don't like because we have to get along but even then, I think those who have chosen the derogatory path will find that the price  has been high.  Especially when you go looking for your self-respect.  Oh.....you have that now --- when I look around at how the President has been treated excuse my huge skepticism.  I say....good luck. 

    Jackie

  • RetiredLibby
    RetiredLibby Member Posts: 1,992
    edited December 2013

    I agree with you.  I'm not one for party orthodoxy myself.  It is not un-liberal or unsupportive of the President to criticize him for things about which we disagree.  But there are *some* liberal commentators who go into vaporlock if he makes a mistake or doesn't do what they think he should.  The ACA rollout is one.  Some liberal talking heads are all "oh woe is me" with the website failures.  Yeah, it looks bad.  Yeah, it shouldn't have happened.  But it's a WEBSITE, people, not a killer asteroid!  It can be FIXED!  No, it's NOT a fatal mistake, a death knell to Obamacare, the final stake in the heart of his presidency.  I would like to see *some* liberal commentators STFU and start reality-talking instead of doomsday-talking!

  • QuinnCat
    QuinnCat Member Posts: 3,456
    edited December 2013


    Obama is definitely the victim of dog whistle racism (as is America - ugh). Claims by those racists, towards those that point this out, as "playing the race card," well, that is just a weak defense, used by those embarrassed by the moniker - racist. "Oh, not me." Who do they think they're fooling?


    http://racecardpoliticswatch.wordpress.com/about/(Stop Dog Whistle Racism)


    The Right's Obsession with Obama the Flirt:


    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/12/conservative-obama-flirt-peyser-danish-pm


  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    Sigh.....I seldom hear a racist own up to being one.  In fact, they are falling all over the place to declare they are not.....yeah, sure...I'm convinced with all the protestations. 

    Jackie

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    AND NO RACISTS....WHEW !!! FOR A MINUTE THERE I WAS WORRIED!!!!!!

  • QuinnCat
    QuinnCat Member Posts: 3,456
    edited December 2013


    Yep, they still can't recognize it, in themselves or others-which works to their benefit, I suppose.


    It reminds me of the duplicity going on in the US Senate now. They'll vote "no" on the budget (some), but secretly hope it will pass. Image versus true beliefs.

  • bluedahlia
    bluedahlia Member Posts: 6,944
    edited December 2013


    I guess the gossip site isn't getting enough hits, or something, Just an observation....meh! And YES, I totally agree. I'd say 80% of the right are racist!

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited December 2013


    RL - "Bush the lesser" - I LOVE IT. I learn so much reading this thread.


    Saw a fabulous bumper sticker today - Michelle Obama 2016


    She'd get my vote. I think she is wise, elegant, funny, compassionate, and has done a darn good job raising two young women who seem to be very much like her - again, I keep noticing how PROUD I am to have that family representing the USA. Reminds me of what it felt like, watching the 4 of them walk out on stage at that HUGE public gathering in Chicago, the night they won in 2008.

  • RetiredLibby
    RetiredLibby Member Posts: 1,992
    edited December 2013


    Jackie, I think it is hilarious when people say snootily that they didn't elect Barack Obama. OK, so I'll give them the fact that they didn't vote for him, but a MAJORITY of the American electorate DID elect him with more than 50% of the vote - TWICE. He didn't need the Supreme Court to give the presidency. He didn't need to sabotage the vote to keep the presidency. In fact, Barack Obama was elected TWICE with MORE than 50% of the vote IN SPITE of the regressives' thuggish, unamerican, unconstitutional efforts to suppress the votes of minorities, women, and lower-income people.


    So yeah, he might not be *their* President, but he IS the president of all Americans. Guess that means they're not really Americans. Hmmmm. If the shoe fits. They are pretty unamerican to me.

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013
  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    DITTO:

    but I really like the clean house part.

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    To lighten it up a bit now:


  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    Lets save money big time now:

    you'll know who wants to be there and probably why......

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    Just read this   http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/12/16/3067951/seeing-rise-gentler-kinder-gop/ and then heard on t.v. that  ( I haven't checked it anywhere else for accuracy ) the Ins. Co. is going to spend a serous amt. of money to encourage people to get Ins. in 2014.  Sounds to me like attempts to muddy the ACA will be lost in the fog.  It is comes down that way......good chance the GOP betting on making ACA/Obamacare their central focus will boomerang like everything else they try.  They have a great record of shooting themselves in the foot.

    Jackie

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013
  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    This is a well written letter......that fell on deaf ears I'm sure, but I applaud the person for trying to straighten Dipsy Doodle out.  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/14/1262765/-A-scholar-tries-to-inform-Megyn-Kelly  --- a rather pathetic creature but fits right in on Fox News. 

    Jackie

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    Interesting things going on with Christie's bridge in New Jersey.  He threw a little hissy aimed at Dems tonight which was aired on MSNBC  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/13/1262485/-After-revelation-that-Christie-asked-Cuomo-to-back-off-bridge-lane-closure-inquiry-top-aide-resigns  he is blaming the Dems somehow for this, REALLY!!!!

    Rather than castigate Democrats ( who rushed to his aid during a recent major storm ) I think he would get a whole lot farther if he would just say something to the effect that he has no answer at the moment but will get to the bottom of it and all will know.  He seems determined to either hide his awareness in some way or maybe cover for someone.  A second person has just resigned over this.  Well, well, well.....did he just kiss 2016 arrivederci.  He has gotten quite testy after his big wind, excuse me, thats win.

    Jackie

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    This really is something that needs a very good read.....and then perhaps two or three more.  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/14/1262724/-I-am-going-to-ask-no-insist-that-you-read-something

    Jackie

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    Another one of interest.  Ann Coulter....little un-raggedy Ann who has so many answers where women are  concerned....  http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/12/16/ann-coulter-beef-single-women/ another strange enigma --- must have been separated from her planet somehow and can't get back.  Her mouth opens and pure gibberish falls out.

    Jackie  

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited December 2013

    Watched lots of my favorites last night....all news, of course.  At one time I was not so much for that but with the changes in the last few years ( beginning with both Sr. and Jr. Bush Presidencies ) it is a have too situation.  I can still cringe every time I think about Jr. Bush.  We are so fortunate we had a U.S. left for Pres. Obama.  We still 'hear' scant news from this person.  Just the statement Barbara Bush made about Jeb Bush running ( not sure in the end he would pay attention to what she says ) saying the White House had seen enough Bush's or something to that effect tells me there is a keen awareness of the huge distaste that characterized much of Jr's last four years. 

    I am proud of myself that I did not mock and show great disdain and hurl taunts at his family.  I respected the office -- though Jr. did not make it easy in any way.  I still consider him one of worst ever elected.  I'm sure much of the world 'tittered' behind closed doors  -- but it was those wars.  B. Bush is right.  Just the name Bush now stirs up things that are better left alone.

    Jackie

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited December 2013


    JACKIE - THANK YOU, THANK YOU ,THANK YOU - you get the general idea! For posting the DKos link, which took me to Bill Moyers original talk/speech -


    NOW THIS IS A MUST READ - for those who know the expression "A THREE LINE WHIP! Seriously:


    http://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/great-american-class-war


    And then, please thank Jackie for leading us to it. Seriously, would not be aware of it if she hadn't posted the DKos teacherken link. He is SO good. But, it's the Bill Moyers you REALLY REALLY REALLY want to read.


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