Naturopathic action plan for bones

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LtotheK
LtotheK Member Posts: 2,095
edited May 2016 in Bone Health and Bone Loss

Hi everyone,  this section has been such a wealth of information. Thank you.

I have been (admittedly, sporadically) taking Fosamax after being diagnosed with osteoporosis in the spine, and osteopenia in the hip and wrist.  Considering I'm in chemopause, I am not sure it's smart to go without a drug, so I agreed to Fosamax.  Though from all my research, it is clearer and clearer to me these drugs really don't do what they are supposed to.

I am on Tamoxifen, but you all may be aware the studies indicate in younger women, Tamoxifen may have bone loss implications. Additionally, the bone loss withdrawl in the years after Tamoxifen seem to counteract whatever "good" was done on the drug. 

All that said, I'm completely confused about the best vitamin and workout plan.  Some studies say yoga and swimming do nothing.  Others say you have to weightlift 4x a week to see a difference.  For how long?  What kinds of exercise?

I would love to share your game plans here.  Here is mine currently:

500 mg calcium (based on the new studies indicating more is not better)

400 magnesium

2000 - 5000 IU D

2000 fish oil

Weight lifting 2 - 3x a week (which sadly, even with good form, tends to make my back a mess--I think it's the Tamoxifen)

Yoga in the mornings

I bought a rebounder...sadly, it sits in the cormer Frown

Limiting coffee to 1 cup per day

What else, friends? 

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  • Lee7
    Lee7 Member Posts: 657
    edited August 2012

    Hi LtotheK,

    I really need to get a good game plan also. I am on Arimidex and my bone scan showed osteopenia. I think my hips were the worst.  My onc gave me a script for Boniva, but I didn't get it filled.  Im trying to do what I can for my bones without adding any drugs.

    I take 2000 mg Vit D3.  I also take a 500mg Calcium/Magnesium pill.

    I've been going to Yoga class 2x a week, and I try to get some walking/stair climbing in everyday.  No specific weight lifting but I do lug around stuff at work....does that count?

    I do eat lots of calcium rich foods, greek yogurt is my favorite.

    I'm curious about the coffee....I drink atleast 2 cups in the a.m. to wake up and another at work.  Does it deplete calcium?

    Hope others post too, I need to have a good bone scan next time!

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  • HLB
    HLB Member Posts: 1,760
    edited August 2012

    Hi Ladies, my mom took Fosamax and ended up having to have her esphagus dilated. She stopped after that because she was worried about the jaw necrosis. She has worked out for years and makes sure to do weight bearing exercise, takes calcium and vit d but I don't know the dose. Her bone density actually improved a little bit after stopping the Fosamax. I remember reading one time that the way the drugs work is they stop the process of your bones shedding the old brittle bone to allow for new healthy bone. So it keeps and builds up all the old bone so you have better density, but its brittle old bone that should have been shed to allow new bone. I don't know if that's true or not. The info came from a newsletter from a natural doctor.I think some people think they are quacks but a lot of the stuff they say ends up being true years later. My mom doesn't have BC and therefore is not on the bone sucking meds that we are on. If that is true about the way the drugs work, I wish there was a better way to protect the bones. I'm on XGEVA shots which is like Fosamax only lots stronger but that's because I have bone mets and I also read that it might be slowing or stopping the bone mets so if that's the case I feel a lot better about it! Anyway, I think to build your bones the exercise MUST be weight bearing.

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  • HLB
    HLB Member Posts: 1,760
    edited August 2012

    I hope coffee is ok because I am NOT QUITTING!

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  • LtotheK
    LtotheK Member Posts: 2,095
    edited August 2012

    HLB, I'm a big believer in QOL--I am not giving up my coffee, either.  However, some studies indicate indeed, it does deplete calcium.

    New studies also indicate calcium from dairy is not good calcium, and actually depletes bones.  Better to get it from green leafies and other sources.

    At 2,000 units, my D is only 33, down from 47 when I was on 5,000 units a day.  Anyone have thoughts on the best supplement?

    I've heard exactly that about the bios.  I don't really think they work, period.  I take them so they don't foist Prolia or something more serious in a couple of years.

    I have also heard in order to be effective, the weight exercise must be done 4x a week.  Sigh.  I get in 3 on a good week.  I just can't do better!

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  • Lee7
    Lee7 Member Posts: 657
    edited August 2012

    My Vit D supplement:

    I'm not sure what to attribute this to:  I just may not need much Vit D to keep my levels up or the actual Vit D I buy is a good one.  My first test had me below normal, 27.  I started with 4000 IU of Vit D and then got checked 3 months later. I was up in the 60's.  It rose so quickly, and my onc had said only take 1000 IU so I backed it down to 2000 IU.  Another test 3 months later, still in the 60s.  Next test 6months, I'm in the 60's range. It appears to be staying at a good level.  Anyways...The Vit D3 I buy is the brand "Nature Made" and it is a solid white tablet not a gel pill type. Its pretty inexpensive and I can find it at Walmart.    It worked for me so I'm sticking with that brand.  :) 

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  • Aruba
    Aruba Member Posts: 543
    edited September 2012

    I was checking out vit d3 and think it was naturemade over the weekend. But saw soy was an ingredient. Just starting to research as i have rads to do before hormones? Do i need to find a soy less brand?

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  • Lee7
    Lee7 Member Posts: 657
    edited September 2012

    I found that the gel type pills had the soybean oil in them. The solid tablet pill did not. That's why I went with the tablet. I don't know how significant avoiding soy is for ER+ but since I am ER+, I'm trying to avoid soy when I can.

    My onc let me start Arimidex the same time as rads. I felt better starting it then since I didn't have chemo.

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  • Omaz
    Omaz Member Posts: 5,497
    edited September 2012

    I am glad I found this thread!  I lost a lot of bone mass between the scan before treatment and the 2 year mark this summer.  Doc wants me on fosamax but I don't want to go on it.  I am just above the cutoff for osteoporosis in the spine so still labeled osteopenic.  Over the next couple years I want to do everything possible to build up the bones!!!  So I am joining the group!

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  • peggy_j
    peggy_j Member Posts: 1,700
    edited September 2012

    I hate to be Debbie Downer but I heard coffee isn't a friend to our bones. Neither are carbonated sodas. But leafy greens are. So let's all switch from our daily joe to kale smoothies. (ha!)  FWIW, I transitioned down to half-reg and half-decaf and it's not so bad.

    In terms of exercise, I heard that two hours of walking a week is a good goal for bone health. Is this the amount others have heard, too?

    Thanks for starting this thread, LtotheK! (BTW, what weight-lifting exercises are you doing? I've been going to the gym for years and many of the arm machines have back supports. Would something like that help?)

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  • Omaz
    Omaz Member Posts: 5,497
    edited September 2012
    Have you all seen this website and study about osteoporosis and yoga?  LINK
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  • Heidihill
    Heidihill Member Posts: 5,476
    edited September 2012

    Thanks for the link, Omaz! Yoga gave at least 8 times better results in bone density than doing nothing -- for only 10 minutes a day. Impressive. Some of the poses don't look that easy though. The modified poses in the DVD would be interesting to see.

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  • Omaz
    Omaz Member Posts: 5,497
    edited September 2012
    Heidi - I talked to the study coordinator last night.  She is sending me the DVD and I will check it out.  I think they have easier version of the poses as well as harder ones.  The book explains osteoporosis really well.  I think anyone can join the study.  I explained that I had good bone mass that I lost after cancer treatment and they were fine with that including me even with that history.
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  • peggy_j
    peggy_j Member Posts: 1,700
    edited September 2012

    Omaz, thanks for posting this.  Our local parks and rec department offers a class called "pilates for bone health." That was news to me, so thanks for this info. I'm curious to know how the different exercises compare. i.e. is yoga better than walking or free weights or... ? We talk about the importance of "weight-baring" exercise, but does anyone know what this means? i.e. anything with our body weight is enough (vs. swimming, for example)

    BTW, can we really reverse bone loss? I thought they best we could hope for was to stop the loss. 

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  • Momine
    Momine Member Posts: 7,859
    edited September 2012

    Peggy, as far as I know, it is possible to reverse bone loss with weight-bearing exercise. This is something I remember vaguely from a study years ago.



    How it works, or doesn't, once you add something like an AI to the mix, I don't know, but it would seem to me that even if you only manage to slow the bone loss, that is still better than doing nothing.



    I had a dexa when I started femara. It showed my femurs and hips in great shape, but osteopenia on my spine. I will have another dexa soon, after 6 months on femara and taking a low dose of calcium and D3 daily. I have also tried to work out more in the last 4 months or so. I am curious what the dexa will show. My exercise at this point is about 10 hours of walking a week and 1.5-2 hours of light weights.

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  • exbrnxgrl
    exbrnxgrl Member Posts: 12,424
    edited September 2012

    No coffee? Never! Two cups each morning and I'm good. I do eat lots of calcium rich foods and kale is a favorite ingredient in my juice. I am stage IV and although I will do many things to enhance my health I aim to enjoy all of life's pleasures, even a great cup of coffee.

    Caryn

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  • Momine
    Momine Member Posts: 7,859
    edited September 2012

    Omaz, thanks for the yoga link.

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  • LtotheK
    LtotheK Member Posts: 2,095
    edited October 2012

    Hey gang, I'm slow on the uptake--been super-busy.

    Updates: I do free weight exercises, and a plan my gym trainer put together for me.  I am ginger with the arms, but I do lift and squat and do weight bearing 3x a week.

    I am going to check out this yoga DVD, looks interesting.

    Regarding coffee, I've seen a lot of reports that a cup in the morning is not enough mgs of caffeine to be a problem.  Regardless, I won't cut that out.  I live for my morning coffee, and green tea gives me heartburn (turns out folks can be sensitive to anti-oxidants!)

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  • LtotheK
    LtotheK Member Posts: 2,095
    edited October 2012

    OMG! I just wrote the study leaders for that yoga link.  Super excited, thank you all so much for the info.  You always are so great.

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  • Momine
    Momine Member Posts: 7,859
    edited October 2012

    So, I had my dexa. My spine was 84% six months ago, now it is 83. My hip has gained a little bone mass, but was in good shape to begin with. So, I guess I have to up the exercise. 

    Ooops! Misread, the hip lost too. :( 

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  • kssunflower
    kssunflower Member Posts: 12
    edited November 2012

    Vitamin K2, strontium, and boron are supposed to be good additions to calcium, mag, and D.

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  • adagio
    adagio Member Posts: 982
    edited December 2012

    Which drugs are bad for the bones? I am taking AC/T for 8 rounds and I do have osteoporosis - my oncologist didn't seem too concerned. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

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  • Momine
    Momine Member Posts: 7,859
    edited December 2012

    Adagio, as far as I know, it is not the chemo you have to worry about. The main bone problem is with the aromatase inhibitors like femara/letrozole and aromasin. Since you are ER-, they are not going to put you on those drugs, so at least that is one less worry.

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  • adagio
    adagio Member Posts: 982
    edited December 2012

    Thanks for the reassurance Momine.

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  • Heidihill
    Heidihill Member Posts: 5,476
    edited December 2012

    http://www.newswise.com/articles/mount-sinai-school-of-medicine-study-shows-vitamin-c-prevents-bone-loss-in-animal-models

    Some Vitamin C might also help. It's nice that it potentially works on osteoblasts, and thus on bone quality (something mentioned in Omaz's link above).

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  • Omaz
    Omaz Member Posts: 5,497
    edited December 2012

    I got my 'yoga vs osteoporosis ' DVD and am doing my yoga now!  I sent them my DEXA scan info and filled out some forms to join up.  Then they sent me the disk.

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  • chatter99
    chatter99 Member Posts: 49
    edited December 2012

    Hi Omaz, is there a link for the yoga vs osteo?

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  • chatter99
    chatter99 Member Posts: 49
    edited December 2012

    What is the best Vitamin c formulation and how much should you take? Is this why some get vitamIn c injections? Are they worthwhile?

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  • Omaz
    Omaz Member Posts: 5,497
    edited December 2012

    Yoga vs. Osteoporosis

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  • suegr8
    suegr8 Member Posts: 163
    edited December 2012

    May I slide in here, please?  MO has result of my dexa & says I am osteopenic.  Have to go with Tamoxifen, not Arimidex now.

    Interesting to follow all the info.

    cheers

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  • Omaz
    Omaz Member Posts: 5,497
    edited December 2012

    Here is link to the yoga vs osteoporosis original publication rather than the website for the study LINK click on the .pdf on the right

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