Alternative Treatment

Maud, I had advanced cancer, ILC. The tumor was large and there was node involvement. I had neo-adjuvant chemo and adjuvant chemo. Neo to shrink the tumor and to start killing the cancer ASAP, adjuvant to mop the stray cells that were sure to be still circulating after the surgery.

The studies posted here were quite interesting. It is not that neo-adjuvant doesn't work on ILC. It is that you are less likely than in IDC to get complete pathologic response. However, the survival is slightly better in ILC with neo-adjuvant than in IDC with neo-adjuvant, according to one of the studies cited.

Some of the studies look at the wisdom of doing neo-adjuvant with a view to saving the breast and conclude that this is not a great approach. In my case this was not the objective. 

When the cancer has moved to the lymph nodes, you want to make sure you kill as many cells as possible. A BMX is not sufficient. I do not expect to live to be 95 and never have to deal with breast cancer again. Most likely breast cancer will be what kills me. My aim is to push that day as far into the future as possible. I see aggressive treatment as that "push." 

Maud, how do you mean that you don't look at it that way? What I posted is not opinion and is not really a matter of point of view. Some people may choose to skip chemo, for example, because it is too toxic for them. But that does not change the fact that chemo will most likely shrink the tumor if given before surgery and will most likely kill remaining cancer cells if given after.

Momine, I just noticed your last sentence, that chemo "will most likely kill remaining cancer cells if given after" (surgery).

That's where I find little if any evidence.  I've searched and searched and can find none other than the statistics of the research scientists showing small benefits from one type of chemo to another. There are no studies comparing chemo with no chemo as that would be considered unethical for the women who "miss out" on chemo. The main improvement in disease free survival came after Tamoxifen was introduced. Also chemo doesn't work on cancer stem cells so I fail to see how it can help once those stem cells have been released into the blood stream.  Please let me know of any studies or statistics that might convince me?

Of course chemo allows people to live longer with their stage IV cancer, sometimes dramatically so, and that means lives are thankfully extended.  So for me the hormonals are the most essential part of treatment and so far they've been very doable.  And like you, due to my stage and awful statistical odds, I believe I will succumb to the cancer unless something else takes me early or a new treatment comes on to the market.

This thread has taken on a kinder, more respectful tone lately and I hope we're able to maintain that as there is no problem in disagreeing providing it's done in a loving, caring manner.  Some of us have more than a 50% to 70% chance of having a recurrence and we have to do whatever we can to beat the odds.  We came to the alt threads because we are looking for gentler, alternative treatments without meeting disapproval and don't want to get beat up because we see the benefit of chemo or tamox etc in some circumstances. Peace and love to you all.

Dunesleeper, I've been looking into the possibility of STARVING cancer rather than POISONING it for some time now and have worked out my own experimental protocol.  My big stumbling block is that the biochemistry of Glycolysis and cell energy make my head spin.  I could never understand chemistry in any form. 

I loved the information you posted and I'll put up links and detail my protocol when I get the time and my brain starts working again.  Meanwhile I googled sentences from your posts and got these links with similar quotes.

Cell Biology - Cancer - Step Outside the Box 

Kaiser Family BP Info - Blog 

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=YXmg1al5olsC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq 

One thing that drives me crazy is that although there is some evidence that high sugar and starch feed cancer and cause worse outcomes, at the same time it's not known how that works.  Blood sugar remains the same unless a person is diabetic.  Our bodies work hard to maintain levels of glucose and insulin in our blood.  On the other hand, higher weight means more triglycerides in the blood.  There may be many different means by which cancer makes use of our high sugar and starch diets, maybe hundreds due to the complex nature of body proteins, enzymes, hormones etc.

See my member's Bio page for a brief description of my protocol.

Kathy, I have updated my Bio page, including filling in more detail about my protocol and my reasons for dropping chemo. 

I just love you guys.  Was so glad !!! to get here.

Read every word from my laast post down.  Let's see what I can remember to comment on.

Abigail - yup, another shut down, what a shame, there are so many geniuses who could and would help.

Chemo - if I decide to do chemo it will be IPT Therapy which tricks the cancer cells by makinng them think they will get glucose and instead the timing is just right so that when they open their little crowns they get chemo, but low lose is all needed because it is so much more effective since the cancer cells are ready to eat it up.

Chemo - if I need to and get the chance, I am going to the Bruzinsky Institute in TX and get my IN onc to work with his protocol for me.  But I am hoping I never need to, of course.

Chemo - Kira - I read last week in Bill Henderson's book, Cure for All Cancers, that he was told by medical pros that the first dose kills all the cells, the rest is for good measure, but I don't know, just saying, worth the read.

Maud - I found the other book I lost and could not recall name - Patrick Quillin, Beating Cancer With Nutrition.  It was under all my bc books and notebook from the Breast Care Center, right in front of laptop.

Kathy - complain away, we love to hear you feel safe with us, but know sometimes it gets hairy around here, just not now, loving it. 

Joy - I don't remember posting in Stage III will look it up, but I do remember that when I first joined bco, I had been told I was Stage IIIB w aggressive cancer Grade 3 and I was quite upset, like how the hell did that happen. 

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN - Dunesleeper said it all, thanks Dunes... that was a wonderful orientation to what causes our system to break, for many it is completely how it works, never for all, but for me, I KNOW IT.  The outside wood boiler next door and the six gas leaks in our basement stole my oxygen.  I was also consuming sugar stuff, love sugar stuff but that I am getting over more and more.  The low O2 has caused a high CO2 which is scary and the cancer is having a flippy happy day of it. Tomorrow I am requesting my int md to order n rx for me to get oxygen so I can ewo, exercise with oxygen, a well-known alternative treatment that can only help.  Up to now, the GP would not write one, but now w CO2 tests high all 3 times, I will get one.  I breathe these fumes all day when at home.

KILLING CANCER CELLS  - I used the Rife machine for four months off and on before surgery.  Mass was small then large then tiny then larger, and do not know if it was my inconsistency but do know I was eating from emotions and breathing the smoke and fumes while deep breathing while swimming laps in ppool.  

SO THE PATH REPORT said there were only 60 cancer cells in the 1-inch mass and there was much neucrosis and inflammation.  

QUESTION ABOUT TUMOR DISSECTION - How do I find out if this was the entire mass w 60 c cells or if there was a sliver dissected from mass and checked and 60 in that?  

JOY - thanks for sharing your protocol.  Good idea.  I will update my profile and share soon.

MY DAY - signed the lease, gave him the cassh, then went  omg what have I done.  Not to be confused with my same reaction when I buy a new computer or dress or vehicle.  Hubby sprayed me w Rescue Remedy hahaha.

Mainly I am upset bcz the house is not my style, but I know I am to be there and I will infiltrate it with creativity and loveliness.  Birdfeeders, turkey and deer feeders, flowers, my hemlocks and pines moved over, some new lights and my faucets and hogher toilets.  Yes we are leasing.  But I have to look at this - if this is the last year of my life, I want to be surrounded with loveliness and peace.  True, this could be the beginning of 40 more years, could be.  But what if, then no regrets and no stress from living w what I cannot handle.

So now we own 2 houses with smoke all around that we gave back to banks.  Cannot live in them, will die, I am proving it so moving beds this week.  And we are leasing one place on 80 acres within probly 4000 acres, the new landlord said, and we can breathe.  Universe sent this house and I know we needed it and are going to be able to pull this off.  It is part of my treatment.

PERFECTIONISM - in homeopathy, the cancer miasm is said to include the perfectionist, the one who needs controll, fear of losing control, and more challenges.  I am all of the above.  In our new home I must practice imperfection.  And that is why I was freaking out today, where will the furniture go, it will not fit, it will not  look like a magazine page, everything is tan, hate the lights, the views are flawed with the LP gas tank there and the ..........  I have to give it up.  Will be working on that and sugarand eating better and getting more supplements down me ea day, am being bad about it. 

Love you guys!  Later.

Kathy, here's a study dated June/Dec 2011 in case the MO tries to tell you the others are outdated.  They keep making the same findings.

Breast. 2011 Dec;20(6):505-9. Epub 2011 Jun 12.
Influence of histology on the effectiveness of adjuvant chemotherapy in patients with hormone receptor positive invasive breast cancer. 

RESULTS: Overall survival was not statistically different in patients with ILC treated with adjuvant hormonal and chemotherapy compared to hormonal treatment alone (5-year survival 85.2% vs 82.8%, P = .68).

Momine, I can't comment on ovarian cancer, but with BC it's the Cancer Stem Cells that are the unknown factor. Unfortunately the stage IV people can't be cured due to the cancer stem cells. So why wouldn't adjuvant chemo also be limited?  If stem cells have already set up home somewhere then no chemo will help, and how does anyone know there are circulating cancer cells that are dividing so they will be killed by the chemo?  If they are circulating, surely they aren't dividing, and if they've settled somewhere and are dividing, won't they have those pesky Cancer Stem Cells controlling the division?

That's all theory and biochemistry though.  For me the bottom line is the Overall Survival after 10 or more years and so far it looks like adjuvant hormonal therapies are better for ILC than hormonal with chemo as per my earlier links.  Yours would be the exception as the tumour needed shrinking, and chemo may well be right for all of us, who knows?  I'm always open to advances in research as the facts are always changing with new studies. Hopefully women will have better and more informed choices before too long.

Meanwhile if you stick with your belief that it's killed all remaining cells, that will serve you well.  I wish I could find something to believe in so I'm working on the starvation studies and my diet. Here's to hope.

60 minutes sounded good, shame I can never get USA TV to play on the internet. It seems shocking to me that I can never take my diabetic mother anywhere and find reasonable food, it's always high sugar and low nutrient. Meetings and events always seem to supply lots of cakes.  We need tasty alternatives that are healthy but also tempting. 

I wish we could get the CTC test here too, though I'd be terrified of the results.  Australia has an excellent health benefit system, but we're behind with treatment and testing protocols.

Edited to say, 60 minutes is playing.  http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7403942n&tag=pop;videos

Thanks Heidi, Great stuff.

Joy - What another great link re: ILC/ER+ not having significant results w/chemo, particularly as concerns L-T survival, which is my chief interest at this time!  I have always thought that if studies can't show me a more than 12-15% increase in survival rates for my type of cancer, that I would skip chemo and work harder on nutrition and exercise.

And, regardless of whether or not I finally decide to choose chemo or not, I would STILL work heavily on nutrition, proper supplementation, water, air, exercise, research, etc.

Momine - I can appreciate all the things you are trying to say to us.  I really do.  I think you are just trying to tell us how chemo has worked for you...and I think all of us are extremely happy for you.  And I love the way in which you and Joy converse as I see it is motivated by real love and concern for all of us out here.

I think long before we got on this thread we all realized we don't have all the answers, much less for each individual, which is why we are here sharing our finds with each other, thus trying to save some valuable time for each other in our individual searches.

If I had not found this thread, I would have easily been coaxed into immediate chemo; but now, I see another side.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Another side to help me to think things through for myself; and perhaps to help offer some of my own discoveries that might help. 

I also have read the other threads, more pro-chemo; and have even started my own thread on Stage III, "Chemo vs. No Chemo".  Unfortunately, it stopped because I guess everyone had said their say regarding my particular case and with the exception of one person who was kind enough to direct me here, I had nowhere else to go.

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all that Maud was trying to say was, please let us have our own intimate site where we are all on the same page and can help each other re: alternatives.  

I think the debate for chemo v. no chemo will never be settled here.  We know it has had some success with others.  What we are looking for here is a free and open dialogue for alternatives.

I sincerely hope I haven't said anything to offend anyone.  That is certainly never my intention. I, like some of the others, are trying to keep this one thread open to this one topic of alternatives.

Tell me if I'm wrong...

Love to all of you!

Kathy 

Maud - I hope you are working on your Bio. I can't wait to read your story.  

JoyLiesWithin - What a wonderful idea about posting your protocol for us all!  I will have to do that once I get one!  

Hopefully, we will all gain enough ideas to really help; and eliminate the ones that don't seem to have much effect.

Big trip tomorrow...and preparing questions...so may not be adding much for a while.

Last chance for any questions I can ask for you for the Top Onc...???

Love,  

Kathy, can't wait to hear your onc's take on chemo and its non effect on ER pos.  Don't accept a dismissive answer, and let him now you have educated yourself about this subject 

Goodluck to you tomorrow !

Of course I agree Kaara, but the stats are astounding, too late for sooo many people !!  I need to tip my hat to that doc on the video, he is radical and adamant about this, no 2 ways about it.  Make sugar illegal on par with alcohol and drugs.  Youhou !!  Way to go !! or was that in the movie 'Hungry for change' which Althea told us about on the Nat Girls thread ? good movie too!  Info overflow Lol

Also want to watch what he did on U-Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM&ob=av3e

Maud:  You are right...it was said by the doc on Sixty Minutes!  He said alcohol and smoking...heavy regulation.  They should start with the kids cereals and fruit drinks.  I can't believe what my grandchildren consume and I try to tell my DD and DS, but to no avail.  It's whatever the kid wants, the kid gets.  My GS is constantly sick with stomach aches and allergies...I wonder why??  Finally after my dx, DD is getting the message that sugar might be bad for us and is trying to limit it in her household.  This is further prompted by my DGD her child who has become a vegetarian and one day threw out everything in the house that contained sugar.  DD came home to an empty pantry.  I could hear the screams from where I live:)  She sees what a difference eliminating sugar has made in our lives...I'm looking and feeling a lot better...so she is slowly coming around.  It's a huge learning curve and sugar is very addicting.

I know this is the Alternative thread but I must ask what about everything in moderation?  I do not feel that Sugar is a big, bad evil thing.  We have always limited our sugar in our house, including with our kids, but I feel that some in my coffee is not such a bad thing.  Thanks.