Early Stage Natural Girls!

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  • althea
    althea Member Posts: 1,595
    edited March 2012

    Hi Essa, thanks for the video link.  I've read in many different places reasons why core needle biopsies are problematic, and the explanations make sense to me.  I just have to wonder, though, where the truth really sits. 

    I had a core needle biopsy, and I imagine the vast majority of people in these forums did too.  It just seems to me we'd be seeing a much higher rate of recurrences if core needle biopsies are as bad as what some authors portend.  

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    Essa, thank you for the informative link. It really deserves its own thread.

    Althea, the radiation oncologist I consulted says they expect the radiation to clean up cancer cell spillage from the core biopsy. Since most women get radiation to "sterilize the area" that may be why you don't see an enormous amount of local recurrence. Still, radiation doesn't improve survival from all causes.

  • stage1
    stage1 Member Posts: 475
    edited March 2012
    Dianarose, your post is the first I heard that MRI does not show calcifications and DCIS.  Now I am worried as I insisted that I get MRI instead of mammo for my one year check.  My original diagnosis found in analog mammo was DCIS with invasive, grade 3...Now i am worried that if I have calcifications, they won't see it.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    If I had known about this, I don't think I would have agreed to have the biopsy.  Although this document is old, nothing appears to have changed since...

    "Needle aspiration biopsy continues to be viewed as the gold standard of diagnostic aids (Crabtree 2004). The whole notion that biopsies may themselves spread cancer may be too hot to handle for most of the media and the medical profession. It is one of those medical secrets that, it seems, is best left unexplored" 

    http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Lneedlebiopsy.htm 

    Great rant Essa and thanks again for that link, that lady is doing us all a huge favour 

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    I suppose the truth sits in why take the chance if there could be a better, safer way.  I wondered too when I had the  choice in front of me, core or lumpectomy and get it out without poking it so to speak.  I thought, what if this isn't.  But the issue was more, what if this is... then it needsto be a clean cut, to me.  I didn't choose rads or chemo after either, all the more intense a decision to just make a clean wide negative margin.

    From the video, her comments, the medical professionals are talking about the aftermath of core biopsies now.  I did read sometime ago that the women who have cores and are benign develop bc within a year at alarming rates too.  Don't have time to find the link now, but had it bkmk'd in my old computer before its demise.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    Essa, were you able to get a second opinion on your slides whether there was a dirty margin or not ? And how did your thyroid results turn out ?

    Just read this:

    "Positive lymph nodes do not metastasize

    Our understanding of the role of lymph nodes (LN) in the metastasization process (MET) is marginal. Positive LNs (pLN) are the most important prognostic factor and lymph node dissection (LND) is still standard practice in primary treatment. However, up to now, there is almost no evidence that elective LND has a survival benefit. Based on many clinical and experimental findings, we propose that tumor foci in regional LN are incapable of metastasization and can therefore not infiltrate further LN and organs. Available data demonstrate a very early infiltration of MET capable tumor cells from the primary tumor into regional LN, and thereafter an increased probability of subsequent LN infiltrations. Disparate growth rates of the first versus subsequent infiltrating tumors as well as the asymptotic growth and prognosis of large tumor foci in LN explain many clinical observations for solid tumors. The consequence of the hypothesis "pLN do not metastasize" would impact clinical treatment and research and contribute to understanding the mounting evidence against LND"

    I tell you, 10 years from now, when the sequel toThe Emperor of all Maladies comes out, the readers will say : oh those poor ladies back then - what they suffered and the hell they had to go through...  

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/n0v437000017207n/
     

  • Kaara
    Kaara Member Posts: 3,647
    edited March 2012

    Maud:  That is interesting...My BS felt this way as well, and he said he would only take the SN and if there was any spread to that, he would not take other nodes because of the damage it does going forward, and the survival outcome is no better.  He said he has seen too many cases where many nodes were taken out only to find that they were negative and the poor women had LE for their remaining years.

  • vivre
    vivre Member Posts: 2,167
    edited March 2012

    Kaara-Lucky you! You have a doc who is up on the latest research. It is becoming more of a standard practice in Europe to not take ANY lymph nodes. Cancer cells are found in lymph nodes is an indication the body is trying to filter them out. It does not mean the nodes are cancerous and need to be removed. It is barbaric that so many US docs keep taking so many nodes. It compromises a woman's future. The lymphatic system is the garbage filter system. If it backs up, we become toxic. That is what causes lymphedema.I think doctors just keep doing things the same old same old. That is why we need to educate ourselves and be willing to speak out on what we want for our own bodies.

    Good article from Dr. Brownstien on mammos. Make sure you check out his new one called Iodinephobia as well:

    http://drdavidbrownstein.blogspot.com/2011/08/mammograms-not-effect...
    Saturday, August 6, 2011

    Mammograms Not Effective In Lowering Breast Cancer Mortality

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    Given the function and importance of the sentinel node, I cannot explain why it must be excised; wouldn't chemo and radio, if chosen, take care of the cancerous node as opposed to removing it altogether ?

    "The sentinel lymph node (SLN) is thought to be an important lymphoid organ for protecting against metastasis and is thought to play a crucial part in provoking antitumour immunity"

    They no longer remove appendices or tonsils (unless it's absolutely necessary) given the crucial role those play in immunity 

    Thanks for the link Vivre - yesterday's news:

    This week, the FDA released a consumer update titled, "Mercury Poisoning Linked to Skin Products." 

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    Maud - My itegrative MD is concerned about the positive margin, and it definitely is one.  He has asked 3x now if the auxillary node (don't even know if it was the SN) that was fully involved cancer was closer to the breast mass or further from the mass. so seems crucial info but the answer lies w the BS.  There was only one cancer node in that place, and the other 10 removed were clear, but who is to say the nodes above breast or between breasts were not involved too.

    Kaara, now I want to come to FL for your BS,  love up to date, wise drs.  You are so fortunate.

    The point is interesting and gives me some rellief because I wonder if the one cancer node could have 'infected' the others but it not shown for surgery.  

    Seems the positive margin is my concern now, but would do nothing different than I am now, treating ALL OF ME : ) in a healing way.

    Maud - the thyroid tests came back low, and my basal temp has been 96.6 to 97.1 for a few weeks so upped the Synthroid for now, BUT I am now on iodine, adrenal support, thyroid support of four kinds and am soon to level off the Synthroid as my thyroid heals.  I was going to Armour or such but deciided too many changes, I  want to heal, belieeve it is a key to the cancer and am progressing that away.  If needed I can take thyroid of organic, natural grazed New Zealand sheep later, but prefer to 'fix' my thyroid to work on its own.  Thank you to Vivre for all the info that has my path turned for the better. Smile

  • Merritmalloy
    Merritmalloy Member Posts: 79
    edited March 2012

    My food sensitivities test results are back.  I was so curious to see what the results would be.  Boy was I surprised.  The two highest sensitivities - eggs and cranberries.  What do I eat every morning?  Eggs!  What do I drink all day?  Cran-water (a mix of pure cranberry juice and water and stevia).  The only other foods that were fairly high were bananas and sesame seeds.  Sesame seeds!!!  Who knew those little seeds could be malicious. :)

  • Kaara
    Kaara Member Posts: 3,647
    edited March 2012

    My boyfriend was allergic to eggs and bananas as well....also tomatoes.  Make cooking a bit of a challenge.

  • Merritmalloy
    Merritmalloy Member Posts: 79
    edited March 2012

    Kaara - did he see a noticable difference after eliminating eggs and bananas from his diet?

  • vivre
    vivre Member Posts: 2,167
    edited March 2012

    I have mixed feelings about those food allergy tests. I had one done too, and I was surprised that things that I have come to realize were not good for me, like diary, did not come up positive in my results. It made me wonder that if we are not eating certain foods, and these proteins are not in our system at the time, would these tests reflect that? So if you are eating a lot of eggs and cranberries, wouldn't it be logical that they might show up in a test?

    Maud-there are so many harmful chemicals in our skin care products and women are just slathering this stuff on. It is especially scary that we are being told to put so much of this stuff on babies. No wonder are kids have so many allergies these days. There bodies are full of toxins and they are not even getting any vit D from the sun. How did we ever survive without this stuff, back in the day? I don't remember any of my friends having allergies back then.

  • Merritmalloy
    Merritmalloy Member Posts: 79
    edited March 2012

    Vivre - I thought the same thing!  Here's something odd.  I have been having issues with periods lasting a long time.  Figured out that I am eating foods very high in salicylic acid (vinegar, cinnemon, honey, etc).  Through my own sleuthing, I determined that salicytes are present in ibuprofen and aspirin.  This in what thins your blood - why drs. tell you to stop taking them prior to surgery.  My recon surgery is this Wed and I just figured this out last week!  I stopped eating anything with salicystes and voila, my period ended pretty abruptly.  Coincidence? I had a gyno tell me I prob need hormones.  I had a naturopath tell me to take extracts to regulate my hormones.  Could it be that I figured it out on my own?  I had a cold coming on and made batch after batch of a lemon/honey/apple cider vinegar/cinnemon drink I swear by.  Kills the cold every time.  When I read about salicytes in these ingredients - I thought duh!!!

  • Kaara
    Kaara Member Posts: 3,647
    edited March 2012

    Merrittmalloy:  I don't think BF has noticed any difference in how he feels, its part of the detoxification process of cleaning up his gut, and apparently he is sensitive to those foods and his intestines don't work as well when he eats them.  He is now having more regular movements which he didn't before.   He always blamed that on his MS, which wasn't necessairly the case, according to the doctor.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    Vivre, I posted on the FDA thread re: Johnson & Johnson babies' products, they were found to contain carcinogens !!  Remember the baby powder ? I use to slather that stuff on as if there was no tomorrow Frown

    That potion sounds good Merritmalloy, and not just for cold, but for detox, blood sugar, etc. etc

    Allergies, that's a whole nother can of worms - according to the doctor I saw, I'm allergic to everything, a huge number of foods, chemicals, airborne - but allergies are far from benign.  Check this out:

    "I now believe there is a correlation between allergies in general and cancer. Food sensitivities and/or allergies are apparently strongly correlated with the development of lymphoma of the intestine and leukemia. The association is stronger in men than in women by a factor of 2:1.
    The central question raised is whether allergies may have a protective effect against development of cancer or predispose people to it. A 1988 report by William McWhorter of the NCI summarizes the research from a series of studies over the last three decades: "Thirteen [studies] reported allergy to be protective, three found no association, and two found allergy to be a risk factor. The hypothesis often given to explain a protective effect is that individuals with allergies may have hyperstimulated immune systems, which are better able to detect and eliminate incipient malignancies.

    The group with allergies--those who had been told by a physician that they had asthma, hay fever, hives, food allergy, or any other allergy--constituted 30.1% of the sample, or 26.3% if the category was restricted to those who had allergic histories of more than 5 years. He found that allergy sufferers--controlling for race, sex, age, and smoking history--had a "highly significant positive association between history of any allergy and development of any cancer." A family history of allergy was also a risk factor for subsequent cancer.

    Breaking down the allergies into specific subgroups, and the cancers into specific diagnoses, McWhorter found that the strongest cancer association was with hives and "lymphatic and hematopoietic malignancies, which included leukemias, lymphomas, and myelomas [emphasis added]. ... The adjusted risk factor of developing a lymphatic - hematopoietic malignancy for persons with hives was particularly strong.

    Borrowing from Hans Selye's stress studies, some allergists believe that allergies may stimulate the immune system for a considerable period of time, but that sustained stress over long periods (including allergic stress) may result ultimately in depleted resilience. Thus, the allergy might be protective in an earlier period of life, but if allergies and other stresses exhaust immunocompetence in later life, it might become a risk factor.

    One finding in the McWhorter study is intriguing in this regard: the one age period in which allergy appeared to have a protective effect was in the youngest adults surveyed--the 25- to 34-year-olds--where the risk odds ratio of having allergies and developing cancer was less than one

    That raises the question of whether or not there may be a benefit in reducing exposure to nutritional, chemical, or other allergic or hypersensitivity stresses in cancer. The hypothesis would be that relieving the significant immune stress of the allergy or hypersensitivity might support the recovery of immune potential to combat the cancer. I know of no research on this significant point"

    Check http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/tableofcontents.htm

  • Beccan1
    Beccan1 Member Posts: 1
    edited March 2012
    Sorry to be jumping into your conversation but after reading the first few posts, I had to share my experience.

    Friday, March 9, I had two U/S guided core needle biopsies on the same breast. Though I had never heard of cancer cell spillage, I was concerned and asked that if I indeed had any cancer cells that were contained, wouldn't this cause them to now be uncontained? I was told, "no - cancer cells don't spread like that". I will never be that trusting again!

    The 1st biopsy went quickly. But there were several failed attempts to do the second. She started from the same incision, gave up and made a new one on the other side of my nipple. It was like a tiny little ball that the needle only managed to push around. Not sure how many times the needle was inserted into me but it a few times before the 2nd biopsy was complete. Total time of procedure, about 60 minutes!                                                                

    That evening I began to feel some pain which became excruciating and within moments blood came gushing out of the first incision.  I immediately applied pressure but a lot of blood still escaped. By the time I reached the emergency room and got into a bed, the bleeding had finally stopped.

    After what I have read here, I am praying that this isn't the beginning of a horrible nightmare.

  • Kaara
    Kaara Member Posts: 3,647
    edited March 2012

    Beccan1:  Yes, It makes me wonder if the radiation that the docs want to do on these small cell cancers are just to cover up the mistakes of the biopsys.  I refused rads and am now hoping that no cells escaped during the biopsy.  Also I have heard that you must insist that your BS remove the needle track when surgery is done.  Mine did.

  • Merritmalloy
    Merritmalloy Member Posts: 79
    edited March 2012

    Hi Beccan1 - I hope everything is ok now.  When I had my stereotactic biopsy, they hit a blood vessel and couldnt control the bleeding.  I formed a hemotoma that was mind-boggling.  I looked like an eggplant.  Even the plastic surgeon was blown away.  I was told there are tons on blood vessels in the breast and if they hit a big one the bleeding will be intense.  Regarding the spread, I hope they are right when they say the cells dont spread.  That's what I was told.  Its moot now anyway for me since I had a mastectomy.  Were you dealing with a lump or calcifications?  I suppose if you just had this done on the 9th, you are still waiting for results on whether it is cancer.  Keep us posted.  I'll send all the good vibes I have that it is nothing too scary.

  • vivre
    vivre Member Posts: 2,167
    edited March 2012

    Becca-The bleeding might be a blessing in disguise. Bleeding is a good way for toxins to escape. Remember the leeches of the old days? They worked. Giving blood is actually helpful for those who donate regularly. It literally cleans the pipes. That said, I hope you blast your body with antixodants, try to do some heavy sweating (a far infrared sauna if possible) and eat a pure diet so your body can flush out any stray cells. We all have cancer cells floating around every day. Whether or not they become cancerous, depends on how big of an army we have to fight it. It will still concern me that the doc did your biopsy was such a hack. Mine was in and out in about 2 minutes. I would not remain silent if I was you about how poorly this procedure went.

    I went to a wonderful talk this week with an organic farmer. He explained how healthy plants do not get attacked by bugs and disease because they have the minerals that are essential to fighting them off. He said that bugs will not usually even stay on healthy plants because the plants own system will make it toxic for the bugs. People are the same! Feed you body well and it will fight the good fight.

  • vivre
    vivre Member Posts: 2,167
    edited March 2012

    One more thing Beccan. When you describe "a little tiny ball that moved around" that sounds like a cyst or duct more than a tumor. This is why I love thermography so much. If something is cancerous, it is fed by lots of blood vessels. This shows up on the therm. A benign cyst does not have any "feeders". How many senseless biopsies would be eliminated if more women started having yearly therms, which pose not threat of radiation or injury, if they became a standard of care. Join me ladies. Demand thermography as a standard of care!

    Maud-I agree that cancer is the result of underlying problems. Allergies, hypothyroid, etc are all autoimmune diseases that put a constant strain on our bodies. When are cells become weak and undernourished, they become subject to attack by cancer cells. We are just like plants!

  • Kaara
    Kaara Member Posts: 3,647
    edited March 2012

    vivre:  I'm having my first termography on Thursday and will be anxious to see what comes of it.

  • Merritmalloy
    Merritmalloy Member Posts: 79
    edited March 2012

    Kaara - is insurance covering the thermo?

  • Kaara
    Kaara Member Posts: 3,647
    edited March 2012

    Merritmalloy:  I am on medicare and thermography is not covered.  It's going to cost me about $250.  I think most insurance doesn't cover it because of all the mammography equipment bought and paid for in the hospitals and clinics.

  • MariannaLaFrance
    MariannaLaFrance Member Posts: 777
    edited March 2012

    Interesting discussion on allergies. I have often wondered about what correlation there is between allergies and immune system. I've had seasonal allergies since I was a child, but have strangely developed dairy and gluten problems at this point in my life. I honestly think that the environment or food supply might be the trigger for these "new" allergies. I met a coworker this week who is also gluten sensitive.... how is it that I know NO ONE growing up with gluten sensitivity??? I do think there is a genetic propensity for being celiac or gluten intolerant, but as we know, genes turn on and off based on how our genes are mutating at any given time...... 

    Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmm....... 

  • Kaara
    Kaara Member Posts: 3,647
    edited March 2012

    MariannaHB:  It may be that they didn't have tests for those kind of things back then, and people just suffered with stomach problems.  I'm sure my son and daughter are both gluten sensitive because they both have IBS, but heaven forbid they would change their diets!  DS has made an attempt to before and always feels better, but reverts back to old habits and has same problems.  DD just won't give up all the junk foods she loves, so she is miserable a lot of the time.

  • truebff
    truebff Member Posts: 642
    edited March 2012

    Marianna, Two things come to mind: one, a theory of mine anyway, is that exposure and exposure is cumulative and, over time, it just becomes too much for the system. I know many women who were originally not allergic to things, who are now.

    I myself was not until at age 19, when, in college, I had to have penicillin for two things back to back so I was on it for a month. At the end of that month, I came down with hives (allergic reaction to penicillin).

    After that, I developed food allergies that took forever for me to figure out because I would "crave" those foods and didn't know that "craving" a food (not one that you need  like spinach or  protein, but like wheat) could be a symptom of an allergic reaction. For me I figured it out when I tried to  eat brewers yeast for my skin. It tasted horrible! It made my skin have MORE breakouts, but I couldn't stop wanting it all the time and wanting spoonful after spoonful, like it was yummy even though it tasted so bad. I also think it was related to the penicillin allergy - that I could not tolerate molds.  I became allergic to yeast (in many breads, vitamins, cereals, prepared foods), wheat, gluten, too much cheese. (I can have them in occasional doses, but too much and I trigger that weird craving thing.)

    Later, when I had a baby and started just washing my clothes in baby detergent too, I stopped having hives on areas my elastic bands came into contact with and so discovered I was having an allergic reaction to my old detergent. Then I became allergic to perfumes, chemicals, etc.

    AND this is common I found out! We are bombarded with chemicals until we just can't take them any more!  I was so mad when one of my favorite face cream companies stopped making a scent-free product that I had loved.

    The other thing -there was recently an article about this posted somewhere here- is that scientists and food companies have moved from what once was whole food into a wheat that makes you crave it. They also manipulate food into "cost efficient" parts (soy is one of them). So you are not getting the nutrition you need and thus you never feel fed until you get the right stuff.The most obvious body reaction to "frankenfood" is overweight, craving wrong food, and getting sick (from wrong food). So if someone develops or recognizes an allergy first, their body is actually giving them excellent information: This is NOT food and I need REAL food!

    I really think my body gave me a big gift showing me the cancer early.  And, also, in my own case, I was eating pretty clean, but I was over-stressed and that is a whole other area that gets neglected in our society.

    I also have watched my sensitive body react badly to any pharmaceutical hormones - so I know I would not do well on AIs or tamoxifen. You have to listen to your own body. The BEST doctors I have ever been to have asked me and listened to me about my own body sensations and intuitions. There is information there.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    Truebff, my brother when he was little had an extreme reaction to penicillin, he spent weeks in the hospital, we almost lost him.  I scream at him to wear a bracelet in case of an emergency.  It can be really serious, don't mean to scare you.....but you should always always mention it to any physician you see, very important 

  • Windy5
    Windy5 Member Posts: 14
    edited March 2012

    Have any of you not taken the recommended al's and not had a reaccourance?

    I am taking maitake musharoom suppliment, vege green powder, calcuim salts, alcaline in my water and basic vitamin suppliments. Was diaginosed last august and did not take the recommended Arimidex. Six months mamo was ok, but constantly worry it will hit me again.

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