Chemo and Breast Cancer
Comments
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cynsister,
I would think that makes sense. However, until careful accurate studies have been done there is no way to know what the comparison would be, since chemotherapy beats up the immune system and surgical ovarian ablation does not. Is there a reason why the studies have not been done?
A.A.
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AA i dont claim to be an expert but i have worked for the health service since 1989 so i do know a little sbout how they use studies. I may be wrong but it is my impression that here in the uk, that some women are offered ovarian ablation rather than the drugs which reduce estrogen but that it is considered to have more severe side effects. So perhaps this is why they havent compared that procedure with the use of polychemo?
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cynsister,
Ovarian ablation would produce more vaginal dryness than the drugs that reduce estrogen, but has fewer side effects and risks for SE's than chemotherapy does, and ovarian ablation doesn't cause the problems with the immune system that chemotherapy does, and does not require all the support drugs that are administered with chemotherapy and all the side effects that come with those drugs.
A.A.
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Sorry i perhaps misunderstood. I thought your question was about why there were not comparative studies which substitute something like ovarian ablation with one of the standard chemo regimens. I offered that one might reasonably request a comparison of ov ab with zoladex for instance (as the aims clinically are similar ie effect on estrogen) But to subsitute ov ab with chemo would not necessarily be accepted ethically for a clinical trial as the clinical aims are different(ie one to effect estrogen and one to kill cancer cell). Just my take on it. Steph
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Sorry to ask a dumb question, but is ovarian ablation the same as a complete hysterectomy? I had one of those, so technically, that would be a substitute for chemo? Forgive me, I'm new to this game and still trying to sort out options.
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Hi cynsister and Kaara,
It is hard to define the discussion because of the issue of killing the cancer cells, which is one function of chemotherapy that is not offered by estrogen reduction methods such as ovarian ablation (chemically with Zoladex, or alternatively by surgical removal of the ovaries), or things like tamoxifen, Arimidex, and Femara. For that reason, chemotherapy used alone or with hormonal therapy can't be compared to ovarian ablation plus hormonal therapy if one intends to have the effect of killing cancer cells (along with noncancerous rapidly-dividing cells).
The use of ovarian ablation plus any further estrogen management with drugs like tamoxifen or Arimidex or Femara but without any chemotherapy would mean that:
1) repeated cycles of cell kill would not be part of the treatment
2) the immune system would not be subjected to chemotherapy
3) one would NOT need to take support drugs such as blood boosters like Neupogen, steroids, antinausea medications, etc.
and IF the current study results from the study shown below continue to be accurate, cell kill by use of metformin could possibly turn out to be helpful for cell kill in place of chemotherapy:
http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/20111205_Check_Up__Treating_cancer_by_starving_cells.html
In addition, the results so far indicate that the metformin works for both HR+ and HR-.
A.A.
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Hadad s et al have done a study in scotland which suggests further trials of metformin for operable bc would be useful. Don't know if you've seen that one? There certainly seems to be hope that it may eventually be added to the available treatments. Here's hoping...
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Also:
I think the difference between cancer cell apoptosis by chemotherapy and the cancer cell starvation with metformin could turn out not to be THE key question, IF each methoid provides just about the same cancer cell elimination.
The key question that remains in my mind is this: There is a lot of doubt that chemotherapy kills stem cells. Would metformin starve the stem cells that chemotherapy likely does not kill?
A.A.
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Kaara, a hysterectomy is removal of the uterus only. The removal of the ovaries would be bilateral oopherectomy. What most think as a total hysterectomy would be TAH-BSO. (total abdominal hysterectomy with bilateral salpingo-oopherectomy). (can be done vaginally and sometimes laparoscopically)
The final end result of oopherectomy is you do not have ovaries, therefore although different from an ablation, result is no ovarian hormones are produce within the body.
Hope this helps. (check your operative report for the full description of what was done.) -
Current listings for metformin for breast cancer trials (14):
NCT01302002, Brazil
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01302002?term=metformin+breast&rank=1
NCT01266486, Oxford
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01266486?term=metformin+breast&rank=2
NCT00897884, Canada
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00897884?term=metformin+breast&rank=3
NCT01310231, Toronto (metastatic patients)
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01310231?term=metformin+breast&rank=4
NCT00984490, Vanderbilt-Ingram (Tennessee, USA)
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00984490?term=metformin+breast&rank=5
NCT01101438, Canada
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01101438?term=metformin+breast&rank=6
NCT01286233 (NSABP), Jonsson Comprehensive Cancer Center
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01286233?term=metformin+breast&rank=7
NCT01471106, MD Anderson/Susan Komen - Houston, Texas
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01471106?term=metformin+breast&rank=8
NCT01302379, San Diego
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01302379?term=metformin+breast&rank=9
NCT00909506, Seoul, Korea
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00909506?term=metformin+breast&rank=10
NCT00933309, MD Anderson/Susan Komen (continuing, no longer recruiting)
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00933309?term=metformin+breast&rank=11
NCT00930579, Columbia U, New York
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00930579?term=metformin+breast&rank=12
NCT01477060, Italy (metastatic)
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01477060?term=metformin+breast&rank=13
NCT00659568, London (study completed)
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00659568?term=metformin+breast&rank=14
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Digger, I just wondered what your breast cancer diagnois is. Was. Obviously your real name is not "digger. So how could I "perform a more thorough search on me."
As to your coment "Why do you need to know this about me?" I need to know this because it informs your posts. Where you are coming from. You had some diagnosis of breast cancer and have survived. I assume, because you are posting on this board. And now you are posting your thoughts about it all. I need to know how to interpret them. Like if your diagnosis was Stage 1 versus Stage 4. That is a big difference.
I was Stage 1, as posted in my signature. I just wondered what stage of breast cancer that you had.
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scuttlers: I don't have a uterus or ovaries...back in my day they called it a "complete hysterectomy"...guess they though we wouldn't be able to pronounce the other term:)
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AA, that's exciting to see so many metformin trials. Pre-clinical studies have shown that metformin does kill cancer stem cells. And now according to the latest study by Lisanti, metformin seems to starve cancer cells in general. There are theories saying regular cancer cells can take on stem-cell like properties, maybe can become stem cells. Metformin hopefully kills two birds with one stone. The trial results will tell us more.
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Heidihill: Is Metformin for all stages and types of breast cancer? It sounds promising.
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Heidihill, I don't want to interrupt so please answer Kaara, but do want to explain that one of the really exciting things about the possibility of metformin is that its action is on cancer cells, not just "breast cancer".
Thanks for your answer to my question, heidihill.
I could not be happier than to have those two stones with this drug.
AlaskaAngel
P.S. Kaara, my day was the same as yours. I had what was called a subtotal hyst prior to dx and I still have my ovaries, but not my uterus. Total hysterectomy was/is the term for removal of the uterus and the cervix and I still have my cervix as well. Confusing!
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Kaara, they believe it starves all kinds of bc cells and there is the possibility that it acts on all kinds of cancer as AA mentioned. The trial in Italy listed above is for metastatic breast cancer and the London one didn't specify stage.
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Thank you....I appreciate that information. It sounds a lot better and safer than chemo!
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Leia,
I guess I don't get how my diagnosis informs all my posts, and personally, I do find it more than a little creepy that you would actually research me if you knew my real name. That's all the more reason for me never to include any personal information, nor would I suggest anyone else on here do that. It's the Internet, after all, a totally public forum. So I'll keep my privacy, thanks. I will say, however, that I've had the same user name the entire time I've been on BCO, which I would hope would verify that I'm not a troll (but then again, there are always people who will cry "troll" or "attacker" if someone happens not to agree with their point of view).
To me, breast cancer is breast cancer, no one person's diagnosis trumps another. I'm on this forum, like you are, just interested in learning about and reading what's going on in the field of breast cancer in the hopes of never having to go through this beastly disease again.
I learn greatly from the information posted on here and elsewhere on BCO and am excited to see potentially new forms of treatment.
I do find the constant carping against the "Medical Industrial Complex" a bit wearying, particularly given that you seem perfectly content to support the "Tobacco Industrial Complex" at the same time. Just my two cents.
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In regards to the immune system and BC, I can say that my immune system was failing me for approximately 2-5 years prior to my diagnosis. Little did I know that I had a severe gluten allergy that suddenly appeared after a pregnancy termination.
Yes, it suddenly manifested itself after the pregnancy tx. You read that correctly.
I had one system after the next break down: digestive, allergies (skin, mouth), I had neuropathy due to malnourishment, bones desinigrating, hyperparathyroidism, panic/anxiety attacks, and the inability to sleep. My body was in a disease state well before my breast cancer diagnosis. One of the good things that came out of the diagnosis was that I was able to learn about the causes of all the other maladies.
I truly believe that our bodies are ecosystems.... if one thing goes awry, it is very possible for a gene change to be triggered and cause cancer. Did I have the genetic predisposal to getting cancer? Maybe, I've had other relatives die of cancer, but none of them reproductive cancers.
I think a traumatic event (for me) triggered a series of cellular changes, mental changes, and my system was rendered defenseless. I caught every cold, stomach virus, every single sickness my children brought home. I was never able to care for my children while they were sick, because I was usually sicker than they were.
So put me in the camp of believers that think that BC has everything to do with immune system status.
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MariannaHB: I agree with you because I had a similar problem that happened to me over a period of one year, and then the next year....bc dx. When I had my Vit D levels tested they were extremely low, indicating that my immune system was in distress.
I am seeing a holistic physician who will help me detox my body so that I can keep the bc from recurring after my surgery. The first thing he did was put me on a gluten free diet.
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My very mainstream GI doc told me that Celiac gene can be "turned on" by trauma (accidents, psychological distress). He is not a naturopath, and I would assume from my dialogue with him that the same could be said concerning cancer. Nobody, even in science based medicine, knows WTF triggers cancer, but we can make educated assumptions.
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Societies that have practiced alternative medicine for centuries have more awareness that those choices have some genuine basis through human experience than societies that don't have that history.
When it comes to health issues of just about any kind, there is a division in perspective that affects the outcome in making choices. There is difference of opinion based on the importance of free choice, and much of that isn't based on better science but on a persistent preference for a choice that is simple to understand and most "convenient".
The best example of that really is the person who will choose to go through treatment recommended by the experts, and doesn't want to spend time analyzing information so that they can verify whether there is certainty that it definitely will help them personally -- and also do not want to spend the time to do the extra work required for better diet and exercise even when it is more certain based on scientific evidence that likely they as individuals would get more benefit from diet and exercise than from the medical treatment. Better diet and exercise helps anyone; the other treatments still are not as definite in identifying which individuals will definitely be helped.
Free choice is important no matter which group one is in. Those who use every advantage that is definitely known to help them personally are more likely to survive.
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AlaskaAngel,
Couldn't agree with you more on your statement:
The best example of that really is the person who will choose to go through treatment recommended by the experts, and doesn't want to spend time analyzing information so that they can verify whether there is certainty that it definitely will help them personally
And this statement also goes both ways, conventional and alternative. Someone can certainly go through the alternative treatment recommended by the "experts" while not wanting to spend the time analyzing the information so they can verify it will definitely help them personally.
But then again, is there really any certainty in life aside from death? Oftentimes I think it's the uncertainly of the cancer diagnosis that drives some women toward one treatment or another. That's unfortunate, because that's just life. Nothing is certain. You can analyze a treatment to death, conventional or alternative, but there simply is no way to "verify it will definitely help them personally."
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http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5394576n
working toward a less toxic cancer treatment
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evebarry: Remarkable story! What hope it brings to those with advanced cancer. Thank you for sharing!
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Digger, I just wondered why you refuse to disclose your breast cancer diagnosis; everyone else does. But since you don't want to disclose it, that is fine.
But no, I have no interest in you at all.
I did start this thread; Chemo and breast cancer. And have read all of the posts. Yet, nothing has swayed me from my original position in this post; I will never "do chemo," ever. Even if I had a Stage 4 cancer. Especially so.
My natural mind set is Alternative. The focus of this thread. Alternative, to me, is normal. These other, Medical Industrial Complex treatments, like Chemo, are not normal. As I said, they are counter-productive. They kill our immune systems. They kill our own bodies defenses against the disease.
Our bodies are really fantastic organisms. Given the right inputs, healthy, non-processed food, mostly plant-based, water, Vitamin D, and daily exercise, we'll thrive. Absent all of that, our bodies become dieseased.
I truly believe that the answer is not to "treat the symptoms." i.e. "chemo for breast cancer."
No, the answer is to treat the cause; why did your body develop cancer, to begin with? And look to solve that question. And I believe that answer lies in eating a mostly plant-based diet, water, Vitamin D, and daily exercise. AND low stress. But the latter just comes, naturally, from doing the former.
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I'm not able to watch the video somehow. Will try to find it in YouTube. Was it about new drugs?
Leia, while chemo is not for everyone, in fact only for a minority (not for the "vast majority"), scientists still don't fully understand why it kills cancer cells. If cancer growth is triggered by an inflammatory process and there is accumulating evidence of this, then suppressing the immune system as chemo does goes to the root of the matter. The key questions may be the dose and if there are other therapies with less harmful side effects My onc readily prescribed aspirin therapy for me recently when I asked him about it, and precisely for it's COX2 inhibiting and platelet suppressing activity. I think of it as baby chemo. Isn't aspirin derived originally from a tree? Fruits and vegetables contain salicylates (the ingredient of aspirin) and have anti- inflammatory effects. Vitamin d and exercise are anti-inflammatory.edited to add: Aspirin was originally derived from willow bark 100 years ago.
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Heidhill: That's interesting about the asprin...seems it is a cure all for everything! My boyfriend was just prescribed a botanical with willow bark for his hip pain. His dr. really doesn't want him taking any kind of meds that interfear with his stomach, which asprin does.
Some of the low dose chemos with fewer SE's would make more sense to me if I were going to do chemo at all. I heard one dr. say that although it is poison, almost everything can become poison if the dose is high enough, and that is what is happening with current approved dosing with chemo. It is just too high for many sensitive systems to withstand. It killed my friend.
Leia: You are right....we need to get at the cause of the cancer rather than treat the symptoms...our new holistic dr. told us that at the last app't. The same is true for all disease. Put the body in optimal shape to fight, and it can get rid of the disease on its' own.
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Digger, I laid my entire story out for you (and everyone else) to see in a prior post. (I dont remember which thread.) My story is transparent, I have nothing to hide. I also asked you to share your story but you refuse to do so. I agree with Leia, if you want to add to the discussion, it helps us to understand where you are coming from. Of course it's your choice whether or not you do. Your posts are antagonistic and I do not wish to engage. It adds nothing to the topic at hand so if I appear to ignore your posts, I hope you'll understand.
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Eve, I hope you are doing well. Thanks for the link above. I saw that story when it first aired. I was impressed with the reporting. It seemed to report the facts and appreared unbiased. I would love to know where they are as far as the research on it to date.
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