Troll psychology
Comments
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I guess I just don't understand WHY people kept replying to the OP in the first place; I read it and was about to reply then I asked myself 'is any sort of response justified to such a dumb stupid question" and when my reply to myself was "NO" I just backed out - had whoever it was troll/not troll not elicited ANY response that would have been the end of it...and had they really been for real they would have THEN gone back to their doctor explaining the question they posted and explaining that they didn't get ANY RESPONSE from this terrific site that the dr had sent them to...and hence que in the Dr to set the person straight on that end. Maybe I just over simplify things!
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Spitnspunk,
I think the reasons to "why" people kept replying is because it's human nature. When people feel passionately about issues, they are going to speak up. I know I will. Not to say anything about something that I feel strongly about makes me an enabler. And I am no enabler.
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AnneW that's a great insight too. I tend to do the opposite to you and avoid getting sucked into the entertainment threads (which is often difficult!) and stick with what i think of as the core buisiness of the forum ie breast cancer and people who are struggling with it- information sharing and befriending. But it has taken this week to put it into words so clearly. I got an old De Bono (aka Mr Lateral Thinking) book from the library, about 6 ways to analyse information (Six Frames for thinking about information) which had helped me a lot too. Thinking about why we do things is Difficult! but when your own life is in flux (eg consequent to major illness) it's a very useful thing to stop and do, if you get the chance.
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Swimangel: I seem to have that same jinx factor. I post to a thread and poof, it ends. Trollville.
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Trolls are successful because, whether they intellectually realize it or not, they know how to be provocative in a variety of manners. They are good a "pushing buttons"
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There are some that really push my buttons .. but I've got them all on ignore now, so I don't have to read posts that are upsetting to me. The only thing is you have to be logged on for the ignore function to work.
Bren
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That's good to know Bren,
I didn't realize that the ignore feature worked beyond PM's
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Thank you Marie and Bren... So then they can be useful too, if it helps identify what those buttons are... Why does a certain person/post upset me so disproportionately? What does it tell me about myself? Its quite interesting there's a poster otr two whose approach to research is just like someone at work, who will produce heaps of evidence but ne'er a word of compassion. That's fine on the forum if you have taken your specialist area/role as a member who watches research news and posts relevant stuff for BC, but it pushes my buttons in the real world scenario if it's someone I think i have a right to compassion from, when my own use of google is every bit as good as hers... One comes to input facts, one comes to draw out support, and there is a mismatch of expectations or ideas about why we are here - Leading to online criticisms like "How could anyone be so XYZ to a newbie?!", when all they may have done is input facts... yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Interested to watch out for the buttons now!
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I heard that many abusers are people who were abused as children. Maybe they don't know anything else. (I missed the thread so can't comment.)
When people flatly state things that are wrong, I get on my high horse. Its hard for me to just 'let things go'. I guess I really like rules too much and its part of my rigidity. I need to work on that (and many other things.)
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Hymil,
By your last post I think also alluded to challenges that we human beings have when we come into "contact" with one another (whether virtual with the internet or IRL).
It's the whole idea of expectations, or entitlements...The idea of "think I have a right to compassion from"....
In our western culture we do have something of a demanding nature, an internal expectation that people are going to react X.Y.Z. to us and what we determine our needs to be..That if they dont meet those needs or dont even try or dont even validate them, we can get our buttons pushed.
(whether those are truly "needs" or "wants" is a whole other angle to be considered too)
Certainly there are all kinds of temperments with all the different kinds of individuals we come in contact with everyday of our lives. Again whether virtual or IRL.
Some people will be toxic to us, and we will be toxic to others. Doesnt even have to be pre-meditated. It just happens.
As the years have gone by I have been able to identify what kind of tempermants and characteristics are toxic to me, and I have come to identify what is is about me that can be toxic to certain kinds of peronalities.
Im very bold, blunt in my thoughts, opinions. Sorta like a friendly cow in a china shop.
Even when Im being friendly, kind, but bluntly honest, people who are just by nature, very sensitive or even struggle with low self-esteem, they are going to find me toxic to them, even if that is not my intent.
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Leaf,
I did follow the thread (even had 2 of my posts deleted by the software program). IMO there really was no abuse going on. What there was going on were some very held strong opinions and those ladies who are very comfortable speaking up, did so.
I know where *I* got sucked in was to too quickly start questioning the OP's legitmacy for a brief time. I soon, however, really did think she was legit, but just very naive in her thinking about being able to receive disability based on her Dx.
(Long story, no need really to re-hash, esp since she later revealed she had been medicated at the time of her original post, which is another factor to that particual thread)
But again, I didnt really see any abuse going on. Just very strong feelings from women who all have journeys they are taking
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hymil said, "Its quite interesting there's a poster otr two whose approach to research is just like someone at work, who will produce heaps of evidence but ne'er a word of compassion."
hymil, I am pretty sure I am one of those people you are talking about. (At least that's what I've been told in a few PM's on these boards.)
I think each of us reacts to posts according to how we're programmed. I am an information junkie. When faced with a new medical challenge, I seek out data, reports, journal articles, because I'm comfortable in that zone. That was my life, before BC. That's how my mind is wired. Now, when I can track down and read a relevant meeting abstract or research paper and understand what's being said, I feel better. I feel like I have more control over what's happening. I have a clearer sense of what I'm facing, and what my alternatives might be.
I'm afraid that's how I react when someone posts a question on these boards. If I know something about the topic they've brought up, I will respond with facts that I hope will answer their question or provide them with information. I try to offer a link to an original source, too, since my "facts" are just opinions if I can't document them. That's just how my mind works.
Other people would respond to that same post with sympathy, or with uplifting words, because that's what helps them in a similar situation. They don't need facts -- they want comfort. They want the hurt or the fear to be soothed.
I'm afraid I lack some of that soothing, mothering-type personality. It's very hard for me to come up with sympathetic words that don't sound trite or awkward, even when I'm feeling deep sympathy for the person. One of my May '08 chemo sisters is dying right now. Her body is riddled with mets, she is bedridden, and this week she stopped eating. I can sit here crying about losing her, but, can I come up with a comforting phrase to offer her husband? Not yet. And, it's not for lack of trying.
Sh*t. Gimme a minute, here...
I think it's hard to know what would be comforting to one person without being too syrupy-sweet to others. I despise pity (which, unfortunately, is all certain family members of mine are capable of offering). I've seen some "positive" replies that made me cringe. There are some BCO threads and forums I avoid completely, because my mind can't engage there.
It is amazing, though, how a particular post can ignite such a flurry of activity as we saw in the one that motivated hymil to start this thread. What triggers my ire is not so much a person volunteering what she believes to be true ("IMHO", or "I think"), or what she believes is the right path -- as outrageous as those might be. My fingers start twitching when someone declares that everyone else (or "you", or "most women", or "we") should agree hers is the right path.... or that anyone who disagrees is doomed or is somehow a lesser person.
Words do count. IMHO, of course.
otter
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Absolutely Marie. I got sucked in because my button about the overriding importance of security of having my own job, which is under threat by my LE, seen next to people whom chemo etc leaves unable to work, didn't sit right next to a very different view of work that has now gone. I resisted the pull of that one but got sucked in eventually by the "newly diagnosed appearing to be being hounded instead of welcomed" because i have an expectation of welcome and support which others may not have. You're absolutely right, we do have strong feelings oftern compoundd by the conflict of serious illness and maybe also the medications we take; and this is a much safer place to vent them than the bedroom, the office, the clinic or the shopping mall.
It's also good that there are people here who are happy to speak up, because for some of us that's very difficult and another possible use of the forum is to practise saying a hard thing in a safe envoronment before you have to say it to a scarey person - the boss or the doctor! The articulate members give words to express and shape the strong feelings that may confuse those of us with fewer word skills, and that's a good thing to do..
Exploring my own toxicity as well as my sensitivities is also a route to reducing them, which will in turn make it easier to get another job. Not deliberately and regardless of who else gets hurt, obviously, (well, obvious to my ethic anyway) but looking back to find out why so I can do it differently next time. Thank you to all who have made constructive comments on thread and by PM.
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Otter .. I believe words do count, especially here where that is all we have. For the most part, we don't have faces to go with the words. And sometimes the posts are a little vague. We have try to figure out what the poster really wants from us. Is it facts, compassion or both. I tend to like both.
Still shaking my head that someone would send you mean PM's.
hugs,
Bren
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Ottter sorry!!! my "absolutelyy" was for Marie, but your post landed in while i was typing! I have found your posts a great source of relevant information, at the right time and explained for the simple
and supportive through and through. I also can't imagine why anyone would send you mean PM's -
Otter,
I am sorry to hear about your chemo sister. Thoughts and prayers to you and her family.
Im like you. My brain is hardwired to be logical. Im a very "come from my head" person. Not so much the "heart".
I also completely agree with you about when one person tries to demand that what is right for one has to be right for all.
There are people who see the world and circumstances as pretty black and white. While many others of us see a whole lot of grey in this very same world and very same circumstances.
And, like you, I do believe it has to do with how our brains are hardwired.
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I find that it shows our passion...we are all here to gain support and encouragement and information to assist us through this immense stuggle against a disease that invokes very deep emotion at its onset - when you first hear those words - you are almost like 'out of body'.
We try to lend a compassionate ear and sensitivity to a newbie but sometimes, they are so profoundly impacted, they know not what they say and here comes out our 'passion'. We all have a particular area that is a tender touch or sour experience or a 'passion' concerning an issue and when we perceive a 'threat' to that, we behave like cornered animals - now, I am not calling anyone a cornered animal so don't get your bristles up - it is human nature to want to defend oneself and/or ones opinion that we feel very strongly about. I had read about trolls when first joining and honestly, have found myself caught up in some of the discussions until a much wiser and longer term member PM'd me and let me know the deal.
The next thing that developes is the 'mob' mindset. Again, human nature - the pack mentality - a lone wolf rarely attacks anything but small prey but a pack will attempt to take down anything. No, I haven't made us all animals again - just an analogy. Poor Anna - the kid couldn't have posted a more sore subject for her first post, the bristles went up, the 'scent of a troll' started to become stronger, and well, 90 posts says a lot.
It was a classic study in human nature - I think someplace there should be an explanation concerning 'trolls' and how to watch for them so that our poor newbies that are for real don't suffer the same fate - Pompeed got herself out of it by keeping the thread, Anna asked to have it deleted and started afresh - I hope not too many who need the support have not had the spunk to take it as an 'opps' and come back - what they must think of us - a bunch of opinionated boobs (pardon the verbage).
Hey, everyone is different in the real world - why should a different set of rules apply in cyber-space? And I was right in there amidst the fray so when I say 'we', that includes 'me'.
And now back to our regularly scheduled program...
LowRider
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Yes, Yes. I think it would be really good to have the explanations posted here, and the beginners' guide to how to spot troublemakers and distinguish them from bonafide if distressed newbies. There have been a few clues mentioned earlier, extreme opinions taken up, clinical histories that don't develop consistently; Redsox mentioned "a topic that is inflammatory in question and/or tone and could legitimately be considered insensitive or offensive to at least some of us." and Beesie wrote about "First are the ones who post mean or stupid or provocative posts. The "Incredible cure for cancer" and "wearing bras causes cancer" types of post. I think their intent is to provoke and/or raise havoc. It's their way of having fun." and "The other type are the ones who come here with posts that try to make it sound as though they have breast cancer. Usually it's not run-of-the-mill BC (not that there is such a thing) but they have all sorts of problems and unusual health issues or side effects / after effects from treatment, etc.. Or maybe it's someone who is going through the diagnostic process but who then sticks around for a long time, with one problem after another after another. The first problem might have been legit but the later ones aren't. I think that these are people who are craving attention. They find a supportive little group here and they don't want to leave"
I found these specifics really helpful, although again they could also be legitimate.
Bren BinVA: "PS .. Beesie .. it's quite easy to identify the stalkers!" Yes, easy to you, maybe, with four years on the boards and over three thousand posts - would you like to share how you do it? I think I have seen one or two who respond immediately and in direct opposition almost as if they have a flag on new posts by the person they are tagging - that may show if you are the stalkee, but wouldn't other people probably be too busy to notice the association?
Anyone got any more nuggets of discernment to add?
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I can say, I originally was thought to be a troll. Some of us do have the rare, or unusual. Luckily for me, I was in chat and not on the boards. Because of the real time aspect, and being pig headed by refusing to go away, it was finally straightened out. I do sympathize with those that are leary of trolls. Having been involved with a few women who turned out to be completely fraudulent, it is hard to be trusting after a true troll experience. wish I knew more how to be sure when someone was a troll.
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Hey AnneW, one of the other reasons, besides MTFlame, that we have so much more time here is that there is so much MORE here now than back iin '02, My member # is like 998 and there were days I'd come here to talk and find no posts for hours at a time. LOL, and I needed my "fix". Now there is more than one could read if going at it 27/7.
I do remember that prior to the delete button, we'd just have to keep repeating "Don't feed the troll" of DFTT. and move on. And we had some great ones! I recall a chick from Europe? who was so into herself and her lifestyle tha tit would blow your mind. Lots would defend her and lots just couldn't stand her. We;ve had a bunch on here, but the coffee enema guy was my downfall. I had to quit going to any threads that were moth to flame, I just got to pissed off. (I'm much better now---LOL)
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Dotti, are you saying that you don't think coffee enemas are a good idea??? And here I've been doing them ever since I read that guy's posts. I haven't had a recurrence so it must be working, right?
He was a troll???
My favorite type of troll. -
Dotti, I remember well. And yes, back in the day, there wasn't the lightning-fast aspect of replies usually.
Coffee enemas crack me up. Do you remember back in the dark ages of hospital nursing, we actually had to give those? It was a running joke with the ordering docs--"with cream and sugar?" Or we'd call the Triple H enemas--high, hot, and a hell of a lot! I don't miss those days.
I'll continue to take MY coffee the usual route. I had a second primary--is that why? But wait, I've been NED since. Is THAT why?
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Hi all...I am a newbie to all of this but I did read the original post before it was deleted. While I am new to this online community, I have been a member of another online community for a while. It is another group that no one wants to join..a bereaved parent group. We get trolls and people pretending that they lost a child (why ppl would pretend that I have no idea). The best way to deal with them (imo) is to ignore them as they feed off of the response. That sometimes easier said than done especially if a topic is a button pusher for some. Someone had mentioned that the we have to remember that newbies are often scared and upset so we need to realize that some of what they say is because of this. I think this thought should be applied to everyone. Even the posters that have been on here for years have the right to have a bad day or to respond to something in anger. We are all human and we make mistakes. In the cyber world you dont know if the person making the comments had a really bad day at work or something along those lines..I guess I am trying to say that I dont think anyone was really wrong in the way they responded. I am glad they took the thread down ...this is all just my humble opinion
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luv2Trav,
Welcome. Sorry you need to be here. And very sorry for the lost of your child.
You make very good and insightful comments. Look forward to having you participate.
God Bless you in your journey
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I wish I knew what you all are talking about - well , maybe I don't if it is nasty and upsetting. There really is so much to learn and share about this journey for you, the patients, and us, the caregivers who really want to help. We certainly don't have time for this other stuff.
In all my years as a professional, I always advised parents to ignore the behaviors they wanted to eliminate and encourage those they wanted to continue. So ignore it (nasty people) and eventually it will go away. Cheers to all.
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Welcome luv2trav and thanks for your thoughts. So sorry to hear about your loss, and I hope we can be supportive for you here. Some people seem to go through so much!
Motherofpatient, your post made me smile too, it reminded me of a great children's book we had called "Not Now, Bernard" by David McKee.
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I just scanned these posts and didn't even realize what a flap annabanana's post had caused. Like BarbaraA, I posted a strong response that I was not a rich, entitled person, I had to work and resented her trying to milk the system. I have no idea if my post was reported. This site is the one place we can honestly express our opinions. I try very hard to not get stressed these days, but I was finding Anna's entitlement attitude stressful. It just bothered me so much, I had to speak up....or I would have been stressed. I don't think I was being unkind to her, just honest. By the way, I also posted on her apology site welcoming her back and thanking her for deleting the original post. My sense is that there are not just trolls here, but others who are such bleeding heart coddlers who view any non lovey dovey opinion as inflammatory....and probably hit the report this post button. I see a lot of this in the world, mothers who won't give kids boundaries because they don't want to be unkind etc... About the real trolls. My son tells me "don't feed the trolls and they will go away".
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Beesie wrote about "The other type are the ones who come here with posts that try to make it sound as though they have breast cancer. Usually it's not run-of-the-mill BC (not that there is such a thing) but they have all sorts of problems and unusual health issues or side effects / after effects from treatment, etc."
I'm not sure if this type is considered a troll, since they are attention seeking rather than deliberately causing trouble. I have noticed that they tend to copy the symptoms and problems of popular posts.I do think because they tend to sensationalize their bc, often with dramatic decline in health, they are unnecessarily scaring newbies. That bothers me.
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Clari,
I agree with you. At least when I use the word "troll" when it comes to internet use, I use the most understood definition. It all has to do with intent to deliberately "start an argument" by pushing people's buttons and get them going
"an internet user who sends inflammatory or provocative messages designed to elicit negative responses or start a flame war"
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Marie - now if only I can contain myself from getting sucked into this crap!!!
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