I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

E - The problem is that MOST people cannot afford more taxes (and the fact that only approx. 50% pay taxes). And even if they could afford more taxes, there's no way to ensure that the additional taxes would be wisely used. It's like a revolving door. The more entitlements, the bigger the government gets. The bigger the government gets, more taxes are needed to run it. On and on and on it goes. Hopefully, the new Congress will put an end to this crazy, run-away train. And then, come 2012, even more reform will take place. Everything's crossed for this! lol Change and sacrifice is sometimes, a hard pill to swallow. But it has to start somewhere - better sooner than later. We simply can't have everything. Many of us grew up hearing those words. We survived, we accepted it and lived accordingly.

(Edited for pesky typos.)

I hear what you say, Laura, but I'm thinking of a system that pays for itself.  Much like Social Security and Medicare do (and they really do for now, and would in the future if some politican had the guts to lift the ceiling on SS contributions).

Which runaway train would you put a stop to?  Social Security is fully funded through 2037, I believe, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the deficit.  Medicare is also fully funded for a while, though not as long as SS.  The ACA actually reduces the deficit though I know Cantor does not believe that, nor has he provided anything to prove his disbelief.  And if the Republicans truly did not believe the CBO's score on the ACA, why would they exempt it from their new rule about fully funding any new laws?

We had unfunded wars and tax cuts - is there any wonder we're in a deficit position?  And contrary to popular belief, experience has shown that tax cuts do not generate additional jobs, particularly tax cuts for the wealthier among us.  You can say that putting more money in the hands of small businesses will increase hiring, but the truth is that without demand (most of which is driven by the middle class), they will not hire.  It wouldn't make sense economically for them to do so.

Believe me, I'm a fiscally conservative vote who was horrified at the unfunded wars and tax CUTS, but realize that in a very bad recession, government spending props up the economy until the outlook improves.  I don't agree with everything (bailouts for financial institutions among them) but recognize the necessary evil of spending.

Just my four cents (that was double the amount 2 cents would have gotten you!).

E

Four cents! How generous E! lol I hear you back. lol

I think we talked about this in the past, but I can't remember the answer: What income (in the present economy) is considered middle class?

Well, Obama et al were looking to let tax cuts expire for families earning more than $250,000.  I don't know what the lower level would be though.

Oh, didn't think of that.  I remember when I was in Boston a manufacturing company was busted with many illegal workers.  It can be done somehow, but I guess not as easily as I thought.

"government money is other people's money" -- LauraGTO

That's interesting. I always think of the government as being "of the people, by the people, and for the people" so I think of government money as "our" money. I pay taxes as part of being a member of a community of people and taxes provide for our common good.  I would easily pay the amount we do for insurance now to the government in exchange for a single payer universal plan that would provide for the common good of health care for all. 

When my DD lost her job she did not get one penny of unemployment.  WE supported her totally until she found another job ONE year later!  WE also paid a fortune for her to stay on COBRA since she has a pre-existing disease.   This should make those happy who don't believe in taking taxpayer dollars to help ourselves.  But not everyone can do this for their children and that is why I believe the government needs to have a program for problems when people can take care of themselves. Just my opinon.

Lassie 11:  Yes I have seen all of my relatives after they crossed over and since they entered with all their body parts, they return to visit me intact!  I think there are amazing healing powers in the Light on the Otherside because the ones who passed due to an illness, always return looking great!  But they aren't missing any body parts.  If any one in my family donated their parts I would be interested to see how they would look when they return to visit but it's not something any one I know in my family has done.  Besides, the bodies they visit me with look and feel like flesh and blood but any one should know it is a spiritual body.  We don't need flesh and blood on the other side!  But that's for another forum not this one.  I can't tie spiritualism in with healthcare except that I know we are all healed on the otherside.  However since I can't prove this to any one except those who live with me, please don't go jumping out of windows to get "healed"!  We have to be patient and wait until it is our turn to pass.   

Medigal - I'm sorry if you're in the poverty level. That's awful. dh and I are struggling just like many others. Honestly, thank goodness we didn't have children. In this economy...yikes!

Hallelujah! For the first time I actually agree with koo-koo (fine/imprison companies who hire them)! lol

E - Like I said before, MOST people, myself included, simply cannot afford additional taxes. And there are tax hikes in the current HC bill. BO said - if you like your current Ins, you can keep it. Well, my question to BO is: Who is going to pay the premiums? Edited to add: NO...I really fear the government's involvement in HC. They need to create a temporary program to help the uninsured get medical care. Think of the bureaucracy involved. Good lord!

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But again...I hear BO use the words middle class all the time. Is it $50,000 a year. Is it $70,000?  Does he even know?

Here's an article discussing the definition of "middle income." 

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/01/11/what_is_the_middle_class/

One part of the article that makes absolute sense to me is that "middle income" may vary by location and depends more on buying power than an absolute income range. 

KK and E, illegals can present a social security card and other ID. The employer pays the taxes. If they present the SS# and ID, the employer cannot go deeper than that. I believe Congress are going to pass a law allowing employers to use a new service that verifies the SSN. Anyway, this is an interesting article about illegals and taxes.

http://www.truth-out.org/undocumented-immigrants-pay-more-taxes-than-they-receive-benefits59264

Laura and E, I would pay for a single payor system IF (and this is a really big IF) the government could prove to me it could run Social Security and Medicare efficiently and with way less fraud . Only then would I agree.

Laura .. are you saying drug testing for every tax payer???

I'm a little late with this one, but it was Enjoyful's comment on the previous page that reminded me of this.  It's probably more than 30 years since I cut this out of the newspaper. 

It's an opinion piece where the writer says, "G. K. Chesterton viewed it this way.  The reason why there are more poor in our jails than rich is because the rich write the laws."

Then he quotes Anatole France:  "In its majestic equality, the law forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

Just wanted to share this. I wonder, if the poor wrote the laws, what would they be?

Laura -

It's impossible to eliminate fraud from a system that involves profit.  I don't know what an acceptable level of fraud/illegals/drugs are to you, but such a system would require a lot of employees to monitor, audit, and prosecute.  That's more government involvement.

And as I said before, Medicare is not an unusual victim of fraud - it happens to every insurance company everywhere.  And we end up paying for it through higher premiums.

E

Yes, during previous discussions, I think it was decided that Medigal is on the poverty level LOL!

In all seriousness, her statement that middle income is directly related to one's ability to acquire necessary goods and services, is right on. I have 2 children, one lives within an hour and the other is in DC. They both have higher income brackets than myself but their income doesn't seem to go as far as I think it should. They blow(IMO) a lot of money, and things in both areas are more expensive (groceries, housing,entertainment and everything else) than in my rual area. I can pretty much afford anything I want because I do without the crap they spend money on. I too save and pay as I go.  Now enter a problem not previously anticipated.  As I approach retirement, the amount I had planned to spend a month for necessities is going to increase because of my medical insurance costs. I'll have to make cuts somewhere else because BC tells me I cannot be without health insurance. I haven't decided who's fault this is, mine? the government's? my kids? the insurance companies? doctors? hospitals? But when I find out who it is, I'm going to kick some butt.