Outraged by TSA
Comments
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A report on the scanners from Chicago O'Hare. It is idiotic. They haven't implemented all of the scanners yet, so you can self-select at this point whether you go through metal detector, or scanner. People are such sheep--most standing there said they didn't care one way or another. I asked a TSA official about why it was as it was. He VOLUNTEERED this: "This new system will be in place soon, we are bringing them in slowly. Unfortunately, they emit x-ray." I didn't even tell him I wished to opt out!
I will certainly do so. There was a patdown going on, and from all appearances, it was extremely respectful. The agent told they guy what he was doing step by step and said out loud where he would be touching next.
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It will be interesting to see how far they get. It brings me back to the days when I was in law school and learned that the government has the right to break a law in the process of enforcing some other right/law. They call it a balancing act. So if, for example, it is deemed necessary to protect the public safety by perfoming searches, the government will certainly uphold protecting the public safety, especially where alternatives can be outlined. The alternatives don't have to perfect, just available. If you don't want to be patted down, agree to the x-ray. If you don't want either, take a train.
The only way the government will disband what the TSA is doing is if it can be proven that the scans and/or body pat downs are not necessary to help ensure public safety. And if that is proven to be the case, then they will be stopped. Short of that it is not going to happen.
Again, this is going to be an interesting watch.
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MHP, I've already decided that I will agree to the pat down rather than the scan. It's good to hear about the respectful nature of what you observed. I'm sure some training with respect to the pat downs would go a long way in helping to ease the fears of some people. It sounds like that has alread happened at O'Hare. Good for them.
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I don't know if you saw the NYTimes Mag piece on scanners, brought up all our issues and more. In England, you forfeit your right to fly by opting out. I hope that won't happen here!
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I'll admit up front that I haven't read all 11 pages of this thread, so if my question has been answerd early, tell me and I'll go back.
In the hospital staff working around any machine emitting x-rays have to wear a badge to monitor their exposure and there has to be a designated "Officer" that is responsible for checking that the equipment is working properly and not leaking dangerous radiation. Even with all this, hospital machines (including mammogram machines) often expose people to more radiation than intended. How are thiese new TSA machines maintained and monitored? Does each airport have a Nuclear Safety Officer that checks the radiation levels in the machine areas at least daily? How much radiaiton is the machine supposed to expose a person to, and how much has been actually measured?
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Where do we as a people draw the line at "what keeps us safe"?? Pat me down, if it keeps me safe. Feel up my crotch if it keeps me safe. What will be the next insult all in the name of "keeping us safe"??
The TSA security rules are knee-jerk reactions to what happened yesterday. Is anyone thinking to what may happen tomorrow?
Our local paper yesterday had an article by a white guy traveling through Isreal and Arab countries. He was detained several times and asked lots of questions about why he was traveling alone with a backpack. He was profiled. And he understood that. The other article was more along the lines of what I said above, about where we draw the line for the sake of (perceived) safety. Both were food for thought.
Anne
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This is not about the 4th amendment, this is not about having to go through a security check before boarding a plane. IMHO this is about the lack of training, lack of professionalism, lack of knowledge of the "security personnel" who are then given TOTAL AND COMPLETE ABSOLUTE POWER OVER THE PUBLIC.
Please take the time to watch the videos that were listed above:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/mother-kept-in-glass-cage-for-almost-an-hour-by-tsa-for-resisting-over-breast-milk.htmlhttp://markcrispinmiller.com/2010/11/mcm-comments-from-the-mother-bullied-and-detained-by-tsa/
Over the years, and even as "security" procedures have changed, evolved, been modified - the entire process depended on the gate, the personnel, and the airport that we were moving through. The same day, there were different rules and procedures for different gates and different airports.
Even the "law enforcement" (who are thoroughly trained, educated, knowledgeable, professional, and courteous) have NO power to expect or require that the public is treated correctly by these "security" agents. The "security" agent has the POWER TO DEMAND THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER DO AS THEY ARE TOLD.
At what point will the untrained, uneducated, unknowledgeable, unprofessional, AND very POWERFUL "security" agents be issued Glocks and just take care of the "problem passenger" without holding up the line?
(By the way, I did fly last week, as I posted earlier; I did leave my foobs in the carry on, I wore only black leggings, and a black top. Took my head cover off, along with my shoes, and walked through with this ravaged body with no problems. Although the "screener" did spend several minutes discussing my luggage image with two others before allowing it to move through. But I also noticed in the video with the young mother, that she was dressed similarly. She had just plain pissed off these people the week before, and they were letting her know exactly how much POWER they had over her.) THIS TRUELY SCARES ME - AND IT SHOULD SCARE YOU. I've seen movies about this type of situation, it should never happen again, what can we do to stop it?
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NativeMariner, your questions about monitoring and maintaining the backscatter equipment are really, really, ... REALLY good ones. In my previous life, we had to have official certification before we could to buy, handle, store, and dispose of radioactive materials. I am certain that the same is true for people who work in the radiology department of a clinic or hospital.
So, what about the TSA? I am 99.9% sure the TSA employees do not wear radiation badges. I'm not sure what type of badge it would take to reliably detect backscatter X-rays; but they don't wear badges. I have not seen anything, in all my reading, about routine inspection of the equipment and monitoring for "leaks" (as must be done on medical equipment). Everything I've read suggests this is high-tech, potentially dangerous equipment that's been put in the hands of people who are totally lacking in the appropriate training. Who's in charge of the "radiation" part of all this? (For that matter, who's in charge of the X-ray machines they've been using on carry-on and checked bags?)
I did read something (which, naturally, I can't find now) that said there are certain locations around the backscatter machines where the "leakage" is pretty high (i.e., someone standing there would be exposed to considerably more radiation than someone actually in the dang thing). One of the "bad" spots was directly above the machine (who knew?); another, I think, was behind it -- but I'm not sure. In both cases, I think the danger zone was pretty close to the equipment -- say, within 2 feet -- but, again, I don't remember the details. Let's just say I am determined that I will refuse to stand that close to the thing as I'm waiting for my pat-down...
... should it ever come to that. It's a good thing my car gets pretty decent mileage, because Mr. otter and I are not going anywhere near a commercial airport if we can help it (except to transport our kids to and from one later this month). "See the U.S.A., in your Chevr--"... no, I mean, "...in your Subaru!"
otter
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OK, have to get dressed and go with DH to get the packages mailed out. And he also says I need to calm down regarding this issue (at this moment in time). BUT he did look up the qualifications for the positions ...
QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED:Have reached his/her 18th birthday at the time of application submission;
Be proficient in English (e.g., reading, writing,
speaking, and listening);
Have a high school diploma, GED or equivalent; OR
Have at least one year of full-time work experience in security
work, aviation screener work, or X-ray technician work IT IS NOT EVEN REQUIRED TO HAVE A GED! OR HIGH SCHOOL! Lots of openings all over the country. -
Re the qualifications:
For many years, the small beauty salon where I got my hair cut had the same shampoo lady. Very sweet, very simple person. Didn't seem to possess much education. When her husband died, the beauty shop took up a collection to help pay for the burial, as she did not have any money. Some time later, she left for "a better paying job." Fast forward a year, and I'm going through the security gauntlet at the local airport. There was the shampoo lady, now a TSA agent!
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Quite frankly, I would be as upset about someone with a Ph.D. performing what I consider an unreasonable search on my body as someone without a high school education doing it. A Nobel laureate has no more right to feel me up than a person who use to work at the 7/Eleven.
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I just went through Miami airport this morning, my implant card in my hand. They just put me thru the machine, then took me aside to say that they would not do a manual shakedown. They were very concerned about protecting breast cancer patients. Just wanted to let you guys know.They were very kind people to deal with.
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Hi CrazyKitties: Glad you had a positive experience. Can you tell me what an "implant card" is.
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Mandy: When our implants are places within the body the manufacturer has attached a card (hard plastic - looks like a license) to the box that they come in and after the surgery the ps gives it to the patient. The make, model and serial number (like a new car <grin.), and cc size are all listed on the card. If you didn't receive one you can get it by calling your ps and even if they say they have given you one, you can get a copy of their copy (they keep a copy for their files)... Good luck... Best, Deirdre
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I'm scratching my head as to what a GED or high school degree has to do with ability to work as a TSA scanner. For me, I'd rather deal with a compassionate high school drop-out than an angry underemployed Phd. but thats me.
I do wonder if the people doing the job realize that they may also be at risk. I hadn't thought about the questions about who monitors the machine and whether the people doing the job are safe or are being exposed to bad doses as well. I suppose an advantage? to using less educated people to do the job is that they may not think about those sorts of things, being more focussed on a job and benefits.
When I think about it, my machine for rads was being checked all the time---I'm not sure that I've ever heard of an airport machine being taken down for recalibration. And the people doing the job were not in the room with me. Even when you do xrays for broken bones and the like, the people taking the scan aren't in the room with you.
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Somewhere around here, I have a couple of articles from USA Today about the radiation risks associated with backscatter X-ray machines (... otter is digging through her Firefox bookmark file ... ).
Ahah! The articles don't exactly discuss the risks, because the actual risks are unknown. The reason why the risks are unknown is because the TSA won't disclose the results of the inspections and "analyses" they requested on the machines. The reason why they won't disclose the results? (Guess.)
Anyway, here are the links I found yesterday. Apparently, a news agency requested the results of the inspections and analyses from the TSA and the request was refused. So, Congress is getting involved -- or maybe they would have gotten involved anyway. And, pretty much everything 3monstmama pointed out about medical X-ray devices (vs. the TSA backscatter machines) is true. The TSA backscatter machines are not subject to the same federal and state safety regulations, because they aren't "medical instruments" (or something like that).
As for whether I'd rather be seen naked (let's drop the "virtually" naked part, because the intent of the scan is to produce an image of us with no clothing on) or have my crotch and boobs felt up by "a compassionate high school drop-out" or "an angry underemployed Phd," ... I think it's a wash. I choose "neither", thank you very much. And, for the TSA to use medical exams and medical imaging as an analogy for what they're doing is a grievous insult to doctors and their patients.
Oh. Almost forgot the links:
"TSA workers, experts worry about radiation exposure":
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-12-06-tsa-xray-inside_N.htm
"Lawmakers call on TSA to release X-ray inspection records":
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-12-06-tsa-xray-inspection-records_N.htm?csp=34news
otter -
OK, flew from Raleigh to LA via Vegas. They picked me AGAIN for the wave scanner. I must really look like a likely terrorist as this is the 9th time I have been picked in maybe 18 flights.
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To those who are "scratching your heads" trying to figure out what education has to do with these positions - it has a lot! The machines are XRAYS and are RADIOACTIVE. Personally, I would prefer to have an individual trained, educated, and knowledgeable in the operation and maintenance of said equipment (and there is no way the 2 week training on hire will suffice).
I have a college education - and it is in the medical field - and I would NOT FEEL in anyway whatsoever QUALIFIED to operate this type of equipment safely. What I was very surprised to discover is the lack of education and the lack of training for the positions. Which would put the person hired into a "defensive" attitude (most individuals when they feel they are being questioned will move to a defensive stance) - and there you have the untrained, uneducated, unqualified, defensive attitude, and with all the power in the world.
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scuttlers,
I understand what you are saying but I still disagree as to whether high school/GED matters. A Phd working a scanner can be just as defensive as a high school drop-out if not more. Me, I have plenty of education--it doesn't make me more qualified to operate a scanner. And I am quite confident that nothing my recently graduated godson learned in high school makes him more qualified to do the job.
That said, he and I and you could all be sent to training that would teach us what to do. But I doubt the training would only last 2 weeks and refreshers would certainly be needed.
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Grandma Got Molested At The Airport
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I had the Dr. Oz show on while I was decorating my tree yesterday. The previews for today's show said he was going to talk about the TSA scans and radiation. Since I'm at work today I went to the Dr. Oz web site and watched the segment there (actually, it's in 3 parts). The bottom line, he recommends that those over 65, cancer survivors, pregnant women, and children not go through the backscatter machines.
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Thanks for mentioning this, DATO. I just went over to his site and watched the segment. I liked the way he politely but firmly disagreed with the two "experts".
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Here's some updates I found in this evening's news:
A breast cancer survivor here in San Diego has joined the civil suit against TSA. Here's the link to the whole article:
And an excerpt:
In a phone interview with Channel 7/39, Durso says the TSA agent [at the Albuquerque airport] "heavily concentrated on my breast area where I told her I'd had a mastectomy the year previous and it just seemed to go on and on."
When her son protested that he'd also gone through a scanner and wasn't subjected to a search, the TSA agent allegedly replied, "well you don't have boobs."
Durso, a breast cancer survivor, says she informed the TSA agent of the mastectomy to her left breast but was still "subjected to a pat-down wherein she was repeatedly and forcefully touched and prodded at the mastectomy area, leaving Ms. Durso in pain and on the verge of tears," according to the suit filed Dec. 6.
Just lovely. Anyone have the phone number for Amtrak?
Also, the TSA has invented its own "medical alert" cards. Here's the link:
However, it sounds like you still get scanned/groped, but now you have the privilege of also sharing your medical information. Here's an excerpt:
The wording on the front of the new TSA notification card says: "I have the following health condition, disability or medical device that may affect my screening" with a box marked "optional" for travelers to write in. Below that, the card reads, "I understand that presenting this card does not exempt me from screening."
The reverse side of the card reiterates screening may still be necessary and says the "TSA respects the privacy concerns of all members of the traveling public" and that "alternate procedures which provide an equivalent level of security screening are available and can be done in private."
So...what's the point? I don't feel any better about the situation...in fact, I feel kinda insulted.
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Thank you for posting about Dr. Oz's advise. I don't always agree with him but this time, I am happy to quote him when traveling with my 3 monsters in February. Makes me wonder if I ought to ask if I really have to go through the metal detector at my building every day multiple times a day. . . something else to check out.
Can't remember if I said it before so forgive me if I repeat. When my oldest was 11 we let him fly by himself to visit a friend in LA. We paid the extra fee and all and told him how when he hit 13, he could fly by himself with no extra fee and how grown up he would be. He just turned 13 and wants to fly to see his friend and I find myself not wanting to let him go because I don't want my 13 year old son being groped--or even just majorly patted down--by some TSA person when my husband and I are not around. And because the cut-off for the pat down is 12, thats what we face if we let him travel. Who the h3ll decided that it was okay to pat down a 13 but not a 12 year old?
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Interesting what 3monstmama says. We also have a young teenage son who was about to take his first airplane trip alone to visit some relatives. We've decided against letting him go on his own until all this settles down. We cancelled our winter travel plans because of this nonsense and will probably take our next flight together as a family in March. We'll see what happens then. But I can just imagine if the child comes up against a "tough" TSA agent how unpleasant it might be. First the argument over going through the scanner, then suffering through an "enhanced pat down." I cannot imagine that it is any easier on a 13 (or 14-18 year old for that matter) than it is on a 12 year old. Heck, I'm creeped out by it as an adult.
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I'm off to Maui on 12/17 (this coming Friday), flying out of LAX. Just can't wait for the experience . . . .I do have an implant card, though. WIll let everyone know how this goes.
Have a good Holiday.
Julie
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I'm back from Maui, and can tell all of you that the TSA experience went okay.
When I saw that I would have to do the full-body scan at LAX, I immediately informed the TSA agent about my surgery and TE's. I also told him that I had the ID card if he needed to see it. He informed me that he didn't think the implants would set anything off, and didn't ask for the ID card. I basically gritted my teeth and went through it; and I didn't have to go through a pat-down.
Regarding the scan at the Maui airport, I went through the normal scanner (the one you usually just walk through). My TE's didn't set anything off there, and I didn't get a pat-down there, either.
Hubby, however, didn't remove all of the change from his pocket, and he got the "enhanced" patdown at LAX
Julie
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I have a total knee replacement in addition to multiple breast cancer surgeries. In addition, I am a retired radiological technologist.(Xray tech). I always set off the initial walk through screening. I have been patted down at least 2 dozen times as we fly often. The TSA agents have uniformally been polite, asked me if I wanted to be patted down in private, and told me what they were going to do every step of the way. I have never felt violated. I have not flown where the full body xray is an option, but would take the pat down any day as I have not seen radiation badges on the TSA employees (could be I never noticed) where the luggage is sent through so don't know how careful TSA would be around the full body scanners. The basic rule of radiation safety is to factor in time, distance and shielding. Exposure should be for the least possible time, the technologist should be as far away from the source as possible (there is an optimum distance to xray certain parts on the patient) and as much lead shielding should be used as possible. Instead when they xray our bags the TSA personnel are exposed to radiation their entire shift (time?) they don't stand very far from the xray machine (distance?) and as far as I can tell no lead shielding is used. If TSA cares so little for their employees how much protection are they giving the traveling public.
Kat
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Here is a link to an article posted today: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40888102/ns/travel-news/
Apparently, some airports are considering tossing the TSA and hiring private contractors. One advantage of hiring private contractors is that "problem employees" can be immediately removed, as opposed to federal employees.
Julie
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My godbrother and his partner came over for dinner over the holidays. In a couple of months they will be flying internationally just as we will. Thanks to a lovely bottle of French table wine, we found ourselves getting all giggly over the whole scanning-searching thing. We decided that should any of us get pulled for for serious screening we will loudly proclaim one of the following:
"oooo, honey you can touch my junk any day but I'm married so _____ gets to watch!"
"okay but my [partner-husband] gets to pick who does it.
There were more but there was also a bottle of wine so I can't remember all of it. Anyrate, we went for the dramatic outrageous approach to getting the pat down. I shall be sure to report if we follow through.
In the meanwhile Happy New Year to all and safe travels!
Diagnosis: 11/16/2009, DCIS, Stg 0, 1.1 cm, grade 3; ER+PR+; surgery 2/10; Rads 3/23/10-5/7/10; Rad Pneumonitis 6/16/10; Tamox 8/28/10-8/28/15 and on with my life
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qdb6wC0Iz4
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