Suzanne Somors hormone replacement???
Comments
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Dear Ladies:
I did get to attend Dr. Sellman's telecast last night. Transcripts will be available soon on her website (if they are not already available there this morning).
It was a really interesting session, indeed, and, from my point of view, enlightening. I had only been reading her website for a short period of time and did not know much about herself or her positions, and this gave me an insight into her approach to good health.
I'll go straight to the point. Dr. Sellman actually recommends EXTREME caution in using bioidentical hormones. She is against estrogen altogether, and, though she uses natural progesterone herself, she cautions that it should only be used under tight monitoring (if at all), because it does have the capacity to accumulate in deep tissues and cause imbalances. Though she does not completely discourage her audience from taking bioidentical estrogen, she does caution that (in her opinion), this approach would only apply to very few women, because needing estrogen is (in her opinion) a rare, if not exceptional phenomenon.
Dr. Sellman prefers a more wholistic approach to balancing one's hormones, such as lifestyle changes, and including the right supplements, homeopathics, and herbs into one's lifestyle.
I realize that this might do little to put our concerns to rest, and could increase the state of confusion surrounding the issue of bioidentical hormones supplementation.
In view of the raging controversies with HRT and Bioidentical HRT, perhaps we might err on the side of caution and hope that we finally come across more definite answers in the near future?
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lisasayers,
I have just started reading this thread. BC is all new to me. I was diagnosed in Jan 2009 and will start radiation in a couple of weeks. We met with two different onc. One was yes you need to take Tamoxifen and the onc said at this point he would not recommend. I was asking your opinion because it sound like you have done your homework.
Thanks Diane
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fishbride, first off--radiation was not that bad for me at all so good luck!
This thread has been more about hormone therapies and alternative treatments but there are a number of threads on tamoxifen--they are actually different topics.
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Bumping for Lisasayers et all!
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What is "DIM" (or maybe I am "dim" since I can't figure it out...lol)? My hot flashes and night sweats are horrible...truly miserable. Was on gabapentin (neurontin) for awhile, but it made me feel a little spacy so I just weaned off of it a month ago. Guess it helped somewhat because now they are 10x worse. Thinking about trying Effexor...anyone have any experience with that one?
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Anom-What a great article! It is great to see that Dr's are finally starting to reexamine the data on HRT and bc. As more and more doctors look at the facts, instead of believing what they have been told by the drug companies, hormonal treatment for bc will be turned upside down. I do believe that within 10 years, prescribing tamox or AI's will be unpopular in favor of BHRT. I would like to hold the drug companies who created these drugs accountable for all the needless suffering they have caused.
Wahine, severe hot flashes are a result of low estrogen and a lack of the balancing hormone, progesterone. They can be helped tremendously by BHRT. They also worsen when we eat sugars and high glycemic foods. The best thing to do is find a compounding pharmacy near you and ask them for recommendations for Doctors who specialize in BHRT. That is what I did. I am having a urinalysis to find out my exact hormone levels, then we will decide on any hormone therapy. This is not something to jump into without a doctor who really understands it and can monitor you. Also, read the books by Dr. John Lee, Dr. Erika Schwartz, Dr. Uzzi Reiss and others. The more you learn, the more you will understand, and the more confindent you will feel in whatever you decide.
As for DIM-I take indole 3 carbonal, which is the active ingredient in DIM. There was a study that showed I3C was as effective at inhibiting the cancer receptors in estrogen as tamox, with no side effects. You can get I3C naturally by eating lots of cuciferous veggies such as broccoli and cabbage. Eating fresh sprouts is really beneficial, since the i3c is more condensed in young sprouts. I am looking into starting my own sprouts. I do not take tamox or arimidex and have no hot flashes since I changed my diet and started on these supplements._
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Vivre,
Doesn't it strike you as odd that Aromatase Inhibitors have NEVER been proven to have any SURVIVAL VALUE? Yet it keeps being prescribed because convential medicine thinks it might be a good idea?
Yet breast cancer patients who have taken HRT have evidence of better or equal survival value as those women who take nothing?
Why do we assume conventional medicine must know what they're doing when they don't even read their own literature?
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http://www.iconmag.co.uk/page.php?n=1417
Forgot to post this informative article about I3C
Anom-our voices may not be very loud yet, but slowly and surely we are being heard!
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About BHRT - sorry girls I've not been following this thread carefully, but see there has been some discussion about using bioidentical homones - BHRT? I used to go to a gynecologist who decided about 10 years ago to dump the whole conventional HRT in favour of natural hormones as explored by Dr. Lee. So I had hormones tested, was prescribed a 3% natural prog. cream compounded in a pharmacy. that was about 6 years ago. Went through menopause with not a hot flash. Last year, was dx with breast cancer. I wondered if there was any way that gynecologist could help me. He got my path report after surgery and said sorry, no, you are 10% ER/PR + and I will not prescribe ANY hormones for you. I had been under the impression that progesterone would somehow dominate estrogen & work to fight bc - I admit I didn't understand the whole thing very well. He did recommend losing weight, exercise, I3Cs, melatonin, and a brand of Canadian supplements for women that include a breast health combo high in I3cs and other good stuff for trying to keep reoccurence at bay. Just my 2 cents....
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That's a very interestng article on I3C Vivre. Hopefully something positive will come of that research. Here is another article I found. It mentions a study on I3C breast cancer, the results of which have not yet been released. It also mentions an interaction between I3C and tamoxifen.
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Thanks for all the info, Vivre and souad! I will look into this.
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Yazmin or anyone else who can assist me, could you pls post a link to the following info.?I posted in this thread earlier, but can't find the post!Tysm!Maureen it became official, in 2006, that ER+, PR+, HER- tumors do not benefit from chemotherapy.
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I tried to read through all 14 pages, but started skimming after page 3. Heck, I don't even recall if I've posted to this thread before; perhaps we need to start a new one??
In any event, I checked out Somers' book and read it over the weekend.
If you read it carefully and do the math, here is what I came up with...in one chapter, she says she has been on bioidenticals for 12 years. Her cancer was dx in 2000, which makes her a 9 year survivor. She also says her sister had BC.
I know my gyn had BC when she was 31 or 34 or something like that and she did chemo and Bilateral mx with recon. When she hit 50's (YAY, she is still here!!) she went on hormone therapy for quality of life....she's 57 now.
Is the estrogen causing our cancer, or would we get it anyway (genetic/environment) and even if we stayed on hormones, would our survival be affected...no one knows and sadly not enough is known about all possible tumor variations.
For some of us, surgery alone would cure us...but we don't know that.
The doc I work for is very PRO iodine, so I started that.
After reading SS book, I think melatonin is OK...i'm not sure about all the other stuff. I'd love to have my hormones back but at this point, am too chicken.
I wish I knew what SS pathology was.
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HRT USERS 100% SURVIVAL AT 10 YEARS, NEVER USERS 90%
Improved breast cancer survival among hormone replacement therapy users is durable after 5 years of additional follow-up
American Journal of Surgery, Oct 2008
Dara Christante, M.D., SuEllen Pommier, Ph.D., Jennifer Garreau, M.D., Patrick Muller, B.S., Brett LaFleur, B.S., Rodney Pommier, M.D.
After an additional 5 years of follow-up, the survival rates for HRT users were still significantly higher than for never-users. Shuetz et al9 also recently reported significantly higher 5-year survival rates of 93% for HRT users compared to 82% for non-users. The 5-year survival rates for the 2 groups reported in that study were remarkably similar to the rates reported in this study. In their study of 1,072 women, Shuetz et al also found a decreased incidence of metastatic disease among HRT users compared to non-users. The presence of distant metastases did not differ between HRT users and never-users or among users of different types of HRT in this study, but there were relatively few stage IV patients in the database.
In this study, the higher survival rate was observed chiefly among patients with mammographically detected invasive tumors whose survival rate was still 100%, as it was in our previous report. In contrast, the 5-year survival rate for never-users with mammographically detected invasive tumors was significantly lower at 90%. Additional follow-up has not shown a change from our previous report in which there was no significant difference in survival rates based on HRT use among patients with invasive tumors detected by palpation.
Abstract
Background
We previously reported that breast cancer patients who used hormone replacement therapy (HRT) had significantly lower stage tumors and higher survival than never-users. We present an update with longer follow-up, HRT use data, and in vitro research.
Methods
Our database of 292 postmenopausal breast cancer patients was updated to include HRT type, duration, and disease status. In vitro effects of estrogen (E) and/or medroxyprogesterone (MPA) on breast cancer cell growth were measured.
Results
Tumor prognostic factors were better and survival rates higher for both E and combination HRT users of any duration. Use greater than 10 years correlated with node-negative disease, mammographically detected tumors, and 100% survival. E supported minimal proliferation; MPA induced cell death; E+MPA results were similar to E alone.
Conclusions
HRT users, regardless of type or duration of HRT use, continued to have higher survival rates. In vitro results supported the clinical finding that outcomes for users of E and E+MPA were similar.
We previously reported that breast cancers in hormone replacement therapy (HRT) users were smaller, lower grade, more often node-negative, lower stage, and had significantly higher survival rates compared to those in never-users.1 Recent events have raised concerns about the impact of HRT on breast cancer. Particular concern has been raised about the use of combinations of estrogen (E) and medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA). Results from the Women's Health Initiative (WHI) trial indicated that breast cancers were more advanced among users of E and MPA (combination HRT) than among patients receiving placebo.2 This would be expected to result in lower survival rates among users of combination HRT. Concerns also exist about duration of HRT use and breast cancer.3, 4
Due to these concerns, we investigated if the higher survival rate we reported was durable after an additional 5 years of follow-up. We also investigated whether duration or type of HRT are associated with differences in tumor characteristics or survival rates. We have supplemented our clinical investigation with in vitro studies in which estrogen receptor (ER)-positive and -negative breast cancer cell lines were treated with various concentrations of E, MPA, or combinations of E and MPA to determine their impacts on cellular proliferation.
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So that study compares two groups of women with breast cancer, one having received HRT prior to diagnosis, and one that didn't. It doesn't address the all important question as to whether HRT increases the likelihood a women will get breast cancer. It only follows the outcome of those who do develop breast cancer. Any data on that subject? I would just want to rule out the possibility that HRT increases the likelihood you get breast cancer, but that the type developed is less aggressive (as shown by this study).
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I'll see if I can pull that full article too....
My twin sister was on Birth control pills for decades...no cancer.
I was on it for 8 or so years....I was dx a month before my 50th b-day and still regular periods so never on HRT....
I hate cancer.
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Wally-using any kind of birth control is HRT. Too many people think HRT is simply hormone therapy for menopausal symptoms, but more and more evidence is finding the the pill is a big culprit. My step mother died in her 30's from cervical cancer. It was later found that birth control pills taken by women who smoked (as she did), had a high incidence of cancer. They then lowered the dosages of the pill, but have not been honest about the effects. I was on the pill for a decade. I am sure it is one of many contributing factors for me.
Remember that you all need to stop comparing HRT to BHRT. The studies about the possible links with HRT and cancer are not relevant to the studies about biodentical hormones. The BHRT studies are not being done in the US because the drug companies cannot make any profit off of bhrt, so they will not fund the studies. There are BHRT studies being done outside the US and they have been posted on this and other threads here, so go and check them out. Too many doctors still only site HRT studies and scare people away from BHRT because they do not know any better. There is proof that balancing hormones, rather than blocking hormones is a better protectant for breast cancer, but many doctors still do not bother to look at the proof.
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In France, where BHRT is the most used form of hormone therapy, the BHRT takers showed no increase in breast cancer. Only HRT takers taking the synthetic progestin, MPA (also known as medroxyprogesterone acetate or Provera) had a slight increase in breast cancer. In the full text article they specify that this a few more cases in thousands of HRT takers.
Get the full text study!
Climacteric. 2002 Dec;5(4):332-40
Combined hormone replacement therapy and risk of breast cancer in a French cohort study of 3175 women.
de Lignières B, de Vathaire F, Fournier S, Urbinelli R, Allaert F, Le MG, Kuttenn F.Service d'Endocrinologie et Médecine de la Reproduction, Hôpital Necker, Paris, France.
Abstract:
The largest-to-date randomized trial (Women's Health Initiative) comparing the effects of hormone replacement therapy (HRT) and a placebo concluded that the continuous use of an oral combination of conjugated equine estrogens (CEE) and medroxy-progesterone acetate (MPA) increases the risk of breast cancer. This conclusion may not apply to women taking other estrogen and progestin formulations, as suggested by discrepancies in the findings of in vitro studies, epidemiological surveys and, mostly, in vivo studies of human breast epithelial cell proliferation showing opposite effects of HRT combining CEE plus MPA or estradiol plus progesterone. To evaluate the risk of breast cancer associated with the use of the latter combination, commonly prescribed in France, a cohort including 3175 postmenopausal women was followed for a mean of 8.9 years (28 367 woman-years). In total, 1739 (55%) of these women were users of one type of estrogen replacement with systemic effect during at least 12 months, any time after the menopause, and were classified as HRT users. Among them, 83% were receiving exclusively or mostly a combination of a transdermal estradiol gel and a progestin other than MPA. Some 105 cases of breast cancer occurred during the follow-up period, corresponding to a mean of 37 new cases per 10 000 women/year. Using multivariate analysis adjusted for the calendar period of treatment, date of birth and age at menopause, we were unable to detect an increase in the relative risk (RR) of breast cancer (RR 0.98, 95% confidence interval (CI): 0.65-1.5) in the HRT users. The RR of breast cancer per year of use of HRT was 1.005 (95% CI 0.97-1.05). These results do not justify early interruption of such a type of HRT, which is beneficial for quality of life, prevention of bone loss and cardiovascular risk profile, without the activation of coagulation and inflammatory protein synthesis measured in users of oral estrogens. -
I will look all of these up at work tomorrow.
I didn't realize that SS had melanoma and hyperplasia/atypica of the uterus as well as some less serious skin cancers.
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I'm a bit skeptical of these hormones. Also, I'm skeptical of SS. Is she donating any of this money to women? She sells clothes, foods, jewelry and I don't know what else. I realize that making money is fine, but.......
I have not read all the pages so I really shouldn't comment. However, I have copied three articles to take downstairs to read when tonight.
I took HRTs. I took FMHRT. It's like Pempro. I took progesterone first to get my periods under control. When I missed two periods I called my gyn and told him. He's two hours away so he didn't make me come in. However, he asked me if I was having any "symptoms." NOPE. He said well let's get you on something before you do. Thus, FMHRT. When the study came out about HRTs being so bad for us I stopped COLD TURKEY. I never had a hot flash before menopause, nor after I stopped taking the HRTs COLD TURKEY. I don't remember what year that was, but I understand that it takes tumors a while to grow..how they know that I don't know. Mine wasn't caught on my mammo...my breasts (now breast) were dense. I had two or three USs after mammos. So, I found the large tumor myself (shame on me for not doing BSEs..I may have found it sooner although I had just had my mammo in March and found the lump in Dec and also had a clinical examine in March) and thought it was a cyst. It wasn't. The tumor was HIGHLY ER/PR+..95% for ER and 90% PR. So, I don't understand. Perhaps I need to go back and read all of the pages. I had hot flashes while on chemo.
At this point I would not take any HRTs..no matter what kind. I had positive nodes with extranodial extension. I'm still confused as to why I didn't have hot flases EVEN even after going off the HRTs.
Shirley
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Shirley dear-Haven't seen you in a while. Good to see you again. Yes, you do need to read the entire thread. Like many many others, you are still equating HRT with Bioidentical hormone therapy. They are two different things. Please read through the facts about the difference between the two. While SS does go a bit overboard in my opininon, she has done women a service by bringing this out in the open. She does not advocate HRT. She does advocate BHRT. Yes does profit off of her books, but I do not slight her for this. She has a right to make a living, and uses her celebrity to do so as anyone else would. However, I do believe she sincerely wants to help other women. After all, she has gone through BC herself. I do not think she is driven by profit. I have only read her latest book, Breakthrough. What I like about the book is that she interviews a lot of doctors who do a great job of explaining the aging process and what we can do to live longer, healthier lives. There is a lot of good advice in her book on everything from diet to supplements, all presented by doctors. What I took away from it is that I do not follow her advice because she is a celebrity. I took the information that she gives and did my own research, and talked to my own doctors to help in my own personal pursuit of health. It kind of makes me mad that we have to rely on hollywood celebrities to give us this information, but our health care is controlled by big pharma, and those of us who want to think outside this box, have to read on our own, and look for doctors who also think outside of the box. Yes, it is controversial, but we all need to make personal choices based on our own instincts.
I just wish people would look at the facts about the difference between HRT and BHRT. Neither has been proven to cause cancer. And they are not the same thing at all. BHRT is chemically the same as human hormones, hence biodentical. HRT is a chemical that acts as a hormone in some ways, but does not metabolize the same way. There are many links to these studies on this thread. I wish everyone would check out the links, and study BHRT before making any conclusions. I still maintain that the proof about the benefits of BHRT is becoming more evident, thanks to high profile celebrities. I really believe that it is only a matter of time before women are treated with BHRT as a form of preventing BC instead of the AI treatments that are being used today. It is safer and has no side effects if prescribed by a doctor who really understands how to balance hormones. As more and more doctors learn to do this, this treatment will be more accepted. You are not alone believing that HRT is a culprit. Most doctors still do not know the facts about hormone therapy. And as I said, taking birth control pills is HRT so many of us have been on this road for many years, yet did not realize what it is called.
Everyone needs to read the books we have talked about her. Not just by SS, but also by Dr. Erika Schwartz and Dr. Uzzi. They are very detailed at explaining it all.
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Anomdenet, thanks for answering my questions. I'm not sure I fully understand the study though. Some of the wording of them comparing HRT to BHRT confused me. Maybe the english version of this is a translation. I guess a very relevant question for the women on this board is how BHRT would affect a hormone receptor positive breast cancer prognosis. Has anyone done any studies on that?
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Hi Vivre
You wrote: "They then lowered the dosages of the pill, but have not been honest about the effects." If you live in the US, federal law mandates that you receive a printout that describes the possible side effects of birth control pills (BCP) every time you refill them. This printout lists higher incidence of BC as a side effect of BCPs.
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Timothy,
Here are the categories studied:
There are studies which followed women who took HRT and BHRT which looked at the incidence of breast cancer. Minor increase BrCa incidence only with MPA progestin-type HRT. (de Lignieres et al.)
Then there are studies that looked at what happened to hormone takers and non-hormone takers who got breast cancer. HRT takers survived longer. (Sheutz' work replicated by Christante et al. in 2008.)
Then there are 23 studies that looked at BrCa patients who took HRT AFTER breast cancer. The studies look at both hormone receptor positive and receptor negative. Most studies mixed the patients but some didn't. See www.breastcancerchoices.org/hrt
Of the 23 studies, all but one showed that BrCa patients taking HRT did as well as or better than those women who did not take HRT after diagnosis.
Anom
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I have that full text article in PDF form but am not sure how to get it posted now....
help??
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Has anyone seen the Dr. Phil show where Robin is featured promoting bio HRT? I recall watching her during her initial entrance into the "change" and that she was then adamant about going through it naturally bio HRT needs to be studied. The QOL issues demand it for some of us (I realize some women are champions when it comes to dealing with menopause) but I am not one of them.
Is anyone here at all taking bio HRT after ER positive BC low grade? I know the risks, etc. I would just like to talk to women who are actually taking it or have in the past. I have so little muscle mass and strength that I tire easily and think testosterone (lack of) is the cause.
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I am. Have been taking bioidenticals for years. I had ER+, PR+.
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