Suzanne Somors hormone replacement???

Hi, Artsee:

Talking about Herceptin. I am delighted that it saved your dear friend's life. It is comforting to hear good news in the world of breast cancer.

I attended the Premiere of  the movie "Living Proof" here in my area (http://www.mylifetime.com/on-tv/movies/living-proof). Got to meet Renee Zellweger, guest of honor. Na!!!!

Of course, this is the story of Dr. Dennis Slamon, the inventor of Herceptin. I did have very high hopes when I set out to attend that fund-raising party (benefiting, it goes without saying, breast cancer research).

But what a disappointment it was!

The movie is inaccurate due to the way that it "cutesyfies" breast cancer. Dr. Slamon is portrayed as some kind of mad genius. Makes it sound like he just discovered the antibiotic, or created the anti-polio vaccine (there is actually a scene at the end of the movie showing him entering a stadium running like an Olympic champion, and in the stadium are the "ghosts," I guess, of millions of women who died before the "fabulous" invention of Herceptin was out, cheering him on his victory lap on the tracks. No kidding.)

This is light-years from reality, of course, when one knows that antibiotics and the anti-polio vaccine, among others, went on to save literally millions of lives worldwide. Whereas the absolute benefit on Herceptin is 0.76 percent (of course, the relative statistic is, I believe 73%; I work for an organization whose job is to establish development statistics for different countries in the world, so I know something about how statistics can be made to say just about anything you want them to say for political reasons).

And I am not even going to start talking about the side-effects.

This movie has women with Stage IV cancer (all looking absolutely lovely and ravishing right through chemotherapy, radiation, etc...) first despondent over their health, of course, letting go of life in a torrent of heart-wrenching tears................. And so on and so forth (you get the idea: Typical Hallmark Channel type)...

But by the end of the movie, here they go:  riding into the sunshine (post-Stage IV), all cured after a few weeks on Herceptin, some going on to marry Prince Charming, and now in the pinkiest of health, just like breast cancer never ever entered their lives. 

This movie is an insult to the intelligence of anybody who is fighting Breast Cancer. It certainly is an insult to women. But what makes me even angrier is that, by attending it, I participated in yet another fund-raiser for breast cancer. Big business, which has been making billions and billions for corporations (some of them actually guilty of spreading cancer through pollution and the use of dangerous chemicals, including pesticides). And cancer rates are still increasing (here again, some statistics show that they have declined: that's because of the WAY said statistics are presented).

http://www.msmagazine.com/sept03/horton.asp

Yazmin:  it's interesting what you got out of the movie and what I did (having met the man).. IMO the movie was an attempt to show how difficult it is to do research, how many obstacles he had to jump thru for the pharmacutical companies (and FDA) he tried to work with (and did work with), the incredible help one women can be to helping - in this case the women who's life he had saved and her attempt to make that gift of life available to the rest of the world.  How DIFFICULT it is to be a person determined to help, for alturistic reason, any one person or any one disease.  How she turned his life around by making people listen to her about his medicine (yes she did have pull with Avon).  It is a wonderful drug - though even Dr. Slamon I sure would suggest he is not some hero and but that this country needs to change it's policy on science and our goal of real healing..  That's what I got out of that story "based on real life", but yes I'm sure it was glorified to some degree.. but that man goes out of his way when he hears that someone's life is in trouble - I know this from personal experience.  How could that be a bad thing for breast cancer patients.. I think he has moved us into the real world where we know how difficult and sometimes impossible to take even the best of science and apply it  and that all of the money collected for bc research is not moving us any closer to a cure and yet he was able to move MOUNTAINS with a little help from his friends.  Also, that was a trial they showed in the program and so not all the women were "saved".. but indeed it was Hollywood!  The man deserves his 15 minutes of fame and so did the women who "tested" that drug for the rest of us.. It was also a real testiment to how we should all try to be in "trials" if at all possible, how we should all try to do our part in helping not only women with bc but everyone within our circle of influence..  THis is just my interpretation of the movie - not challenging anything else you might have said about where we are with medicine etc.. just my commentary on your commentarry.  Best

Sarabhealed, your post really interested me because you said that you would consider progesterone, since that is what I am thinking too. What do you think about estrone, which I have read is considered a protective estrogen as opposed to estradiol which is not? Have you any advice about finding doctors who understand BHRT to monitor use?

I think I saw part of this movie. Was it on TV recently?

Estriol, the Safest Estrogen

Estriol is a Safe and Effective Hormone for Menopausal Women with Hot Flashes and Vaginal Dryness

Estriol is a type of estrogen made by the ovaries. It is one of the primary hormones of pregnancy and as a hormone replacement therapy it has been used in Europe for many decades. Until the advent of bioidentical hormone replacement therapy (BHRT), estriol was rarely used in the U.S., because the pharmaceutical industry here is not interested in a nonpatentable medicine, no matter how safe and effective it is.

In a review of estriol in the 1980s, Dr. Robert Greenblatt, one of the foremost researchers in hormone therapy at the time, commented that "the ability of estriol to relieve vasomotor symptoms [hot flashes] and to improve vaginal maturation [prevent vaginal dryness] without inducing notable side effects, is sufficient reason for it to be included in the management of the postmenopausal syndrome." In other words, he felt that estriol should be considered as an effective and safe form of HRT because it prevents menopausal symptoms like hot flashes without causing side effects so common to conventional estrogen replacement therapy.

Estriol Protects Against Breast and Uterine Cancers
That estriol is a very useful form of ERT wasn't news to Professor Henry Lemon. He and other clinical scientists had been saying this for over 30 years. In fact Dr. Lemon stated in a 1966 article published in the Journal of the American Medical Association that "Estriol offers a nontoxic, physiologic antagonist for ovarian estrogens, inducing little or no endometrial proliferation in postmenopausal women, which together with progesterone might simulate the protective effect of pregnancy upon subsequent breast cancer risk." In other words, estriol could be used as a form of ERT to protect the uterus and breast from cancer.

Estriol as a Replacement Estrogen in Breast Cancer Survivors
Dr. Lemon also researched how effective estriol is in treating women who already have breast cancer. His rationale was that estriol, unlike estradiol or estrone, had not been shown in animal studies or human clinical trials to stimulate the uterus or breast cells, therefore making it an ideal candidate for ERT in very high risk women whose breast tumors were estrogen sensitive. A clinical trial of 2.5 to 5 mg per day of estriol therapy in 28 premenopausal and postmenopausal breast cancer patients demonstrated that estriol induced remission or arrest of metastatic tumors in six (37 percent) of the women.

Estriol Prevents Vaginal Atrophy and Urinary Tract Infections
At menopause a common problem is degeneration of the vaginal lining, which can make intercourse painful, and renders the vagina more susceptible to invasion by bacteria, causing urinary tract infections. Several studies clearly show that a vaginal estriol cream can prevent such urinary tract infections in postmenopausal women, and this is estriol's primary use in Europe.

Estriol Does Not Cause Blood Clots
A very serious problem with using estradiol or estrone in a minority of women (1 out of 5,000) is that it increases the risk of death due to deep vein thromboembolism, which means the formation of life-threatening blood clots in the veins. Estriol, on the other hand, has very little effect on the blood clotting factors. Doses as high as 8 mg per day have not been found to increase the risk of blood clotting. Dr. Lemon also noted that estriol did not cause any problems related to thromboembolism in his clinical study exploring the use of estriol for treatment of menopausal symptoms in breast cancer patients. This was also the consensus of a review committee that met in the 1980s to review the clinical efficacy of estriol.

Estriol Protects the Skin From Aging
It is well recognized that the time around menopause is associated with more rapid aging of the skin. Estrogens are important for the structural proteins collagen and elastin, which give the skin elasticity and structure, as well as hyaluronic acid, a naturally occurring "moisture retainer" under the skin. Studies published in the mid to late 1990s demonstrated that estriol, applied as a skin cream directly to the face, remarkably reversed wrinkling and other problems of skin aging associated with the onset of menopause.

How to Take Estriol
The typical oral dose used in Western Europe is 2 to 5 mg daily, but because much of it is "dumped" by the liver immediately, this may only ultimately amount to ½ to 1 mg of estriol actually getting into the body.

Many clinicians use an estriol cream that delivers 2 to 5 mg. When made as a cream, the pharmacist should indicate on the container how much cream it takes to provide the 2 to 5 mg of estriol. When you deliver estriol to your body via a cream, it is delivered in a much steadier fashion, whereas given orally it is subject to all the variables of how the digestive system and the liver are working from hour to hour.

An estriol cream that delivers 0.5 mg, used every other day, has been shown to be very effective for treating vaginal atrophy and urinary tract infections. Published studies show that 0.5 mg estriol delivered every other day for 2 weeks, is adequate for most women, and this is how estriol is used by most women in Europe. The reason that estriol is used only every other day is because it doesn't clear from the body as fast as the other estrogens and therefore one dose will last for two days. Using it every day can result in excessively high levels. Although estriol does not absorb through the skin as rapidly as estradiol or estrone, studies have shown that topical delivery of estriol is about twenty times more efficient than oral delivery.

Yazmin--I know what you mean about chemo and I turned it down too...at least they have the oncotype dx test to help people make the decision now--but how awful that so many have put up with the side effects AND after-effects when it didn't help but only compromised their immune systems.--I am on your wave length about meds--some are lifesavers for the right situations, but they are overused in others.

Vivre--love your posts!  I know estriol is considered the "good" estrogen and I like Lee's stuff BUT my bio-identical hormone was 80% estriol and the cancer still grew.  I know I have been estrogen dominant over the years and had great success with progesterone suppositories for PMS years ago. Now that the Femara is out of my system and I'm starting to have more estrogen I plan to test levels and see...my compounding pharmacist actually knows more about it than most doctors, but there is a wholistic doctor in town who does this stuff and my oncologist is fine about working together with her.  I still am confused about saliva testing (which I've done for years and Lee recommends) and some recent stuff that says blood serum levels are better after all...still researching that, but interested in info that others might have.  I also use flax seeds, calcium d-glucarate, and am getting cruciferous complete to take instead of I3C which I have been taking.

Sarahb-what is cruciferous complete? Sounds interesting. I read that saliva testing is more viable when we are premenopause, because hormones fluctuate more then. But the blood tests are more accurate and are the best for menopausal women. There is so much info out there that the key is estrogen balance with progesterone. I sure hope they start to give more credence to this. It just seems so much more logical. I just can't get past the fact that the incidence of bc goes up, as our estrogens go down as we age. Yet we are still estrogen dominant because we have no progesterone. I wish they would get this all straight!

abinneb: You are 100% right about non-compliance and the role of the doctors themselves in helping create resistance to drugs that were absolute miracle drugs when they were discovered a few dozen years ago. Thank you for clarifying this point.

althea: Your analysis is so........right to the point. Nothing to add.

barry: My understanding is that they are not EVEN sure DCIS is actually a cancer; Some oncologists definitely don't see it that way at all. They know little about DCIS (and about everything else), but you are in very good shape with a non-invasive "cancer" (if we end up accepting that it is, indeed, cancer). I would play it safe, maybe? (if all I had to worry about was a DCIS, that is).

Here is was Dr. Reiss says about hormone levels and menopause:

onset menopause-This category refers to the first few years of menopause, where women still experience large fluctuations  from time to time, yet less frequently than during perimenopause. There is no menstral cycle. This is when symptoms of deficiency are at their peak.

midmenopause-This category refers to the next 5 years of menopaus, that is, women who are three to eight years into the change. Estrogen fluctuations still occur however, they are minimal. There is a significant reduction of symptons such as night sweats and hot flashes at this time.

late menopause-This group generally includes women over 60. They have been in menopause for 10-15 years or more. There have been barely any fluctuations in their estrogen.

Actually, this discussion has got me thinking harder. I just realized that I have not been giving enough thought to the issue of hormonal BALANCE. The more I read this thread, the more convinced I am that I have to make it a priority to look into it, and I now plan to discuss it with my general practitioner (I could never get my oncologist to "deviate" one millimeter from the literature, although I would not call that deviation, but innovation. But He!).

I am persuaded by the need to balance excess estrogen with progesterone--but here is my dilemma: If being menopausal with symptoms like hotflashes means my body wants more estrogen and since progesterone is a precurser to estrogen and can be converted by the body if it needs it, how do you know when it might actually create estrogen rather than balance it???

Also on my mind is an article entitled 'High estrogen associated with breast cancer recurrence' quoted on page 3 of this thread. The summarizing paragraph states "Researchers found that higher estradiol concentrations, in all forms, significantly predicted cancer recurrence."

I am in complete agreement with anomdenet as a I look at that conclusion with puzzlement.   First of all, why wasn't progesterone included in the study?  As I recall Dr Christiane Northrup's explanation of these two hormones, estrogen is in charge of cells cycling in and progesterone is in charge of cells cycling out (aka apoptosis).  

I have to wonder, do estrogen and progesterone travel around in pairs?  What if they did, and what if the proliferation of estrogen really represented the proliferation of progesterone?   Then, you might have, sharp intake of breath, something similar to white blood cells being associated with infection!  Or, better yet, you might have something like fire trucks being associated with scenes of fires! 

If the high level of estrogen turned out to also be a high level of progesterone, then it could be an indicator of our bodies trying to get some cells to cycle themselves out. I REALLY hope there's a research scientist way ahead of me on this one. 

And even though I'm not a scientist, or doctor, or anything close except as a patient, I just have this feeling in my heart that estrogen is not the evil culprit here.  To jump from 'associated with' to 'predicting recurrence' is a might big leap if you ask me.  In fact, it doesn't really indicate anything at all as far as cause is concerned.  It makes as much sense as an assertion that fire trucks cause fires due to the association between the two.  

Althea-your analogy was very interesting to me. Since my son is a fireman, does that mean we are more likely to have a fire?LOL But I do get your point because after all the reading I am doing on hormones, I am beginning to think the same thing. Wouldn't it be  a huge controversy if it is found that too much estrogen does not cause bc, but lack of progesterone does? As I said, this would make the fact that bc risk goes up as we age and our progesterone levels drop to nil. I would not put it past drug companies to pull one over on us, in the prospect of making a buck. Could you imagine the lawsuits? No wonder they lobby extensively to get natural hormones off the market. No wonder they block any research on natural hormone replacements. There are a lot of doctors out there using them successfully. There are a lot of studies in other countries proving they are safe, yet the FDA refuses to approve it here. I smell a rat.

As to your comment on thyroid; Where did you here that cuciferous veggies were bad for the thyroid? I can see how it could be true that the thyroid is affected by rads. That could be why women have such fatigue. My last thyroid test shows mine is low, yet I do not have any fatigue and I also had none during rads. I just attributute this to my daily exercise routine. I have read that low progesterone affects the thyroid too, so I am getting very close to going this route. I just have not found a good doctor yet to regulate it. I do believe it is very important that we have doctors monitoring us before doing hormone replacement. It is essential to get only as much as needed.

althea:

Your analyses are truly thought-provoking..... This is like reading a fairly long mathematical equation leading up to yet another problem to solve (one has to concentrate in order to follow the process). After reading your thought progression a few times, I can see how this logic could end up leading to the question of whether estrogen is actually the culprit. I know some breast cancer advocay groups (such as Breast Cancer Action) have already asked themselves this same question.

I, too, have asked myself this question before, but this is the first time I can see a logical path in that direction. I have wondered elsewhere whether there might be an emerging school of thought in which estrogen is not considered the culprit in this matter, after decades of hormonal treatment.....

.......And what a "revolution" that would be! But not impossible, when you realize that Tamoxifen was only recently found to actually fuel HER+ tumors (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7222/full/nature07483.html).

.......And when you know that after putting millions and millions and millions of women (just like myself) through chemotherapy, it has now been discontinued for our cases, because it was found to do absolutely nothing good (and much to the contrary) for ER+, PR+, HER- tumors.

Breastcancerchoices.org has a lot of info on thyroid and breast cancer. I have also found some info in Dr. Reiss' book, Natural Hormone Balance. While we have always heard a lot about the problems with high thyroid, low thyroid is finally becoming more in focus. So back we go again to the fact that even though we may pooh pooh celebrities because they tend to make a lot of money from us, it is celebrities like Oprah and SS who bring this information out of the closet that is actually making a difference. Sad but true.