How has the Pandemic affected you as a cancer patient/survivor

Beesie

"Stole" is exactly the correct word. It's harsh, but it's become clear to me that without being that harsh and direct, no one except my fellow Canadians is willing to acknowledge and understand what really happened with vaccine supply - started by Trump but mostly under Biden. Shockingly, to me, even using that harsh word, I'm still not getting the point across. The "yes but"s continue.

Since when does a government "own" all the product manufactured in their country? The government doesn't own these pharmaceutical companies; just because a product is manufactured in U.S. doesn't make it "U.S. supply". The U.S. should have shared the AstraZeneca supply sooner? Canada had orders with AstraZeneca, Canada had approved the AstraZeneca vaccine, AstraZeneca produced vaccines. Simple, except that AstraZeneca couldn't use that supply to fill the Canadian orders because the U.S. President wouldn't allow it - even though the U.S. had not even approved the AstraZeneca vaccine and therefore the product could not be used in the U.S.. So the U.S. should have "shared" sooner? How did that ever become "U.S. supply" in the first place? What happened is that by placing orders on AstraZeneca and requiring that U.S. orders be filled first (even with the vaccine not being approved in the U.S.), the U.S. effectively stole the AstraZeneca supply that would otherwise have been earmarked by AstraZeneca for Canada and Mexico.

And no, it shouldn't matter if U.S. supply was constrained too. Pfizer and Moderna are multinational companies. If they have chosen to rationalize global manufacturing to a limited number of facilities, they do so on the assumption that they can supply all countries from those few manufacturing sites. If they had orders for 1400 units (1000 for the U.S., 300 for Mexico and 100 for Canada) and could only supply 700 units, the supply should have been proportionally allocated with 500 going to the U.S., 150 going to Mexico and 50 going to Canada. It's common sense.

If tomorrow the U.S. Pfizer manufacturing site was destroyed by a tornado, I'm sure everyone here would agree that European production should be prioritized to get 3rd doses to all of Europe that wants 3rd doses, and no problem, the U.S. will wait until there is excess supply from Europe before getting any more Pfizer vaccines. And if there is a new aggressive Covid variant and a tweaked vaccine developed to combat that variant, no problem, the U.S. will patiently wait for supply until all orders from European countries are filled. Everyone here would be fine with that, right?

Betrayal, we have some drug production in Canada from multinationals, and there are some large Canadian generic manufacturers - Apotex is probably the best known. But just like the U.S., most of our antibiotics and other drugs come from China and India.

Over and out.

Aram

Thanks Beesie for the clear explanation. And again unless if you agree with "America First", what Biden did was exactly that.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/...

wrenn

I am hostile toward trump for what he did to the entire planet. He gave permission for all of the crazies to come crawling out from under rocks. We are seeing more right wing hatred in Canada now too but I don't think we take patriotism as far here.

We have done a lot of ugly things here too. When Americans criticize our health care system I just hear it as individuals not getting it but not as a general American sentiment. I hope some individual opinions on what happened with the vaccines won't be seen as America bashing.

Teedoff

Beesie, I do understand what you have communicated. Understanding a position doesn’t necessarily bring total agreement. I choose not to feel guilty about being in line for a vaccine as determined by my state health department. There was not easy access at that early time for those who wanted/needed the protection vaccines might offer. Was our political leadership unethical in its restrictive policy? You make a good case for the affirmative.

A time of crisis brings out the best, the worst and even denial. Heroes, villains, bystanders. If I were Canadian, deprived of what was contractually owed to my country by an international corporation, I too would feel it was wrong for another country to restrict or deny these contractual obligations. The rear view mirror can only inform the future. It can’t change the past.

Betrayal

Do you really think if the shoe had been on the other foot, Canada would have been willing to share their largesse? I think there are issues with your healthcare delivery system and according to what I have read, equity for service availability is not practiced within your provinces. So while your system has many advantages in one sense, I prefer my healthcare system and the liberty to make my choices more. If I need a hip replacement, I do not need to wait years to get it. True, Covid has had a negative effect on availability now, but this will change.

As Teedoff says we cannot change what has occurred but can hope for change in the future.

I do not feel guilty about finally getting access to the vaccine after a prolonged wait given that I live in an area (dense population) where initially the number of cases was high but vaccine availability limited. In spite of being high risk, it was the age restriction that denied me earlier access.

wrenn

My post was meant as "this is not Canada Vs. America'. Maybe didn't state it well.

Aram

The conversation is not meant to make people feel guilty, neither about comparing healthcare systems. I am sorry if it seemed that way. As individuals we do not have power to change major decisions taken at time of crisis. But accepting the fact that what happened and is happening is not right might be the first step to prevent further similar issues.

The whole conversation started with booster shots for general population(immunocompromised are a different story) and how people in third world countries are not deserving enough for first or second shots. That statement is very similar to what happened at the beginning. While scientists are saying at this point booster shots are not necessary for the general population, some governments are pursuing it. So no, this is not only about the past. This pandemic is not over till it is over everywhere. So it is in our best interest to ask for fair distribution of vaccines to every willing arm in the world.

Anonymous

Aram 👍

Teedoff

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Aram, as I said, I have chosen not to feel guilty. Neither does Betrayal. We each have our perspective as you do yours. I as an individual appreciate learning about Canada’s views on vaccine policy then, now and for the future. We have all had the opportunity to express our views and experiences. I don’t feel at all that the conversation has been meant as a guilt trip or hostile toward any of us. In my opinion we have said about all there is to say on this

To switch gears, I am glad you are finished with weekly Taxol and that it was tolerated well. A great drug for many of us either to prevent recurrence or maintain stability. Unfortunately, I’m in it until it stops working. Hair started growing but now thinning again. Just one of the indignities of cancer treatment. Stay well.

Latte123

I appreciate all of the information provided about the US policy as well as sharing about how all of this makes us feel. Conversations across borders are very important. I knew that the US, Canada, the EU, India and other places had various restrictions on sharing the vaccine outside their borders (sometimes called "vaccine nationalism"), so I was wondering about the specifics of this critique of the US policy. I think it is Trump and then Biden's use of the Defense Production Act to maintain supplies necessary to make vaccines and stop the spread (masks) as well as treatment (ventilators). Obviously this did have consequences for other countries. For example, if I were in Canada I would be upset about not getting access to the Astra Zeneca vaccine sitting in the US but not being used.

I expect that an historian or public health expert will put together an annotated timeline of how each of the wealthier countries responded to sharing the vaccine with poorer countries. It is clear that Biden and other leaders know that we must share the vaccine or it will never go away for any of us. What were the global responses to this issue? What can we learn from all of this to be better prepared and more equitable when things like this arise in the future?

This is September 2021. The vaccine has only been around this year and supply and access to it in the US was slow in the beginning, as others have pointed out. I live in the Bay Area of California and have stage four breast cancer and I didn't meet the criteria (age based) to get the vaccine until late March. Late March is better than what Canadians experienced, I believe.

Covid has been tough all around in so many ways. It is kind of people to explain their perspectives. Thank you!

moth

I'm just going to comment on the hip "years" thing because it's got to be one of those conversation myths that floats around American healtcare debates & it needs debunking. BC has public surgical wait times & I just checked; for hip replacements,. 50% of cases are completed within 14.4 weeks & 90% within 40.5 weeks. Free. No copays, no minimums, no gofundmes

US meanwhile has an epidemic of amputations because of totally inadequate diabetes care. https://features.propublica.org/diabetes-amputatio...

but anyway....

bottom line about the vaccine supply is that it has nothing to do with healthcare systems. this had to do with TRADE & protectionism.

Whether Canada would do same....well I hope so when it comes to water. Cali wants BC's water and I'm saying nope. It's one of the thorny issues in the trade agreements whether water is included and whether Canada can refuse to export it.

it's interesting to consider covid as a dry run for a bigger global threat. Can we really work together, or does everyone take all their toys home and barricade themselves in...

Anonymous

The frustration that Canada had in waiting 3 months is a fraction of what other countries worldwide are currently experiencing. China and Russia are faltering in their vaccine diplomacy, but if no one steps in, they'll recover. Allies can be bought. Ghana received vaccines from the US recently after Russia failed to deliver. The goal is to beat the pandemic. Letting it rip in other countries will not do that.

Beesie

To Aram, wrenn, moth and Seren

moth

well sure, there is a bigger problem of country inequity. I mean you can say that about anything after a while. Why complain about waiting for treatment or having to pay extra for something when in another country they can't get anything at all & don't even have a mammography machine. I mean, inequity is a whole huge problem.

I think I just wanted to separate out COVAX and underserved countries from the trade relationships between the G20s & specifically Cda/US. They are different issues trade & legal wise, though again, I can see that ethically maybe they should not be.

We absolutely should all be supporting COVAX & I totally agree that getting the vax to everyone has got to be the goal. &again, Canada is. MSF has called on Canada to do more because we do have purchase orders for way more doses than we need & the expectation is that many of those will end up being donated.

No word of a 3rd shot for me btw. BC announced something about it but is rolling it out in such a secretive fashion that nobody knows the criteria and last I saw, it might have been heme onc pts & organ transplant only. Ontario said solid tumor in current treatment but BC hasn't...

Beesie

To Aram, wrenn, moth and SerenitySTAT, .

My posts were not intended to make anyone feel guilty.

For me, this has never been a Canada vs. U.S. debate, nor is it about any of us as individuals. We should all be pleased that we received our vaccinations as quickly as we could within our jurisdictions, and I understand the frustration of anyone who had to wait.

I was merely stating some facts about vaccine distribution and U.S. policy that most Canadians knew but apparently most Americans did not.

I don't know what Canada would have done had the situation had been reversed. I do know that the EU considered implementing a policy similar to that of the U.S., but decided against doing so. Had the EU done that, most Canadians would likely still not be vaccinated today.

I agree that the situation today is most dire for people in developing countries. With the exception of those who have underlying health conditions, I question the move in some countries towards 3rd doses while so much of the world awaits their 1st dose. I would be supportive of any amount of money or number of vaccines that Canada chooses to donate to COVAX and believe that this should be the priority at this time.

Anonymous

Instead of pushing boosters for the general public, I would prefer delaying second doses for the newly vaccinated. There's enough data showing better immune response when delayed 6+ weeks. This may reduce or delay the need for future shots while giving more first doses with the limited supply of vaccines.

Sadiesservant

Moth, I've been watching closely on the third dose for the clinically vulnerable as well. I watched the PHO present and yes, the first tranche is for about 15,000 who are severely immunocompromised. That surprised me, particularly when she said that they were still "studying" the situation with the moderately immunocompromised, anticipating they would have a decision by the end of September or early October. The media read that as we would get the third shot then.

It's darn frustrating. It's pretty clear that things are progressing in my liver again so I'm feeling time slip away somewhat. I would prefer to be able to step out of this bubble at some point!

Interesting discussion on access to vaccines. As someone who worked in international development for many years, I have a problem using a broad brush approach to say that developing countries can't manage a vaccine program. I would agree there are some parts of the world where it would be challenging but many other countries would be able to implement a strong response if they had adequate access to vaccines. Regardless, we have a duty to ensure that ultimately, everyone has access. And WRT the political debate, I would say we have seen a LOT of bad behaviour from politicians around the globe. The best and the worst indeed...

Latte123

HI Beesie! I note your comment "I was merely stating some facts about vaccine distribution and U.S. policy that most Canadians knew but apparently most Americans did not." I am not sure if you are intending this, but don't use my questions as an indicator that most Americans don't understand US policy. I was really asking the questions to understand more precisely what your arguments were. I am well schooled in American imperialism/dominance in its many forms historically and today. However, I am working on trying to understand (listen carefully, set aside immediate judgement) people's perspectives rather than jumping to conclusions. This is part of my overall effort to improve my discouraged attitude and live better and look for solutions in a country that elected Trump, harbors many anti-vaccine nut cases, had an insurrection, is rife with racism, etc. I am writing this response because I don't want to provide you with perhaps a mistaken example of American lack of understanding of the world stage and America's place in it. And to be clear, my feelings are not hurt at all by what you wrote and I respect your perspective. I don't mean this as a critique at all, just a clarification that makes me feel better. Peace and good wishes to you!

wrenn

I'm starting to wonder if there is a correlation between breast cancer and really intelligent, well read, articulate women. I love this thread for what I am learning.

MinusTwo

wrenn - now wouldn't that be amazing. And would we have to track the correlation by hormone positive vs negative? Or HER2+? Or ILC? Thanks for the chuckle.

Trishyla

There is thought that there may be a correlation between intelligence and depression, which makes sense. The more intelligent you are, the more likely you are to see and react to complex problems and issues. When you're less, shall we say, gifted, you tend to see life in simpler terms.

Or as my friend, Amanda, used to say: "Gawd. I wish I was stupid,. It would make my life so much easier". I'm glad she wasn't.

ShetlandPony

Well then, that's good. The more all these treatments affect my brain and make me stupid, the better off I will be.

Anonymous

Cancer giving us the gift of blankness!

Anyone in Alberta? They declared the pandemic over and had a great summer. Playtime is over.🤦🏻

Trishyla

Wow. Sorry to hear that, Serenity. It seems like this is going to keep dragging on forever. It's tough for everyone, but especially hard of anyone dealing with a serious illness.

I had two friends, both of them young, die of cancer during the Pandemic. They both had to spend their last days isolated from everyone except their husbands. That makes me so sad.

Trishyla

I hear you on the treatments affecting your cognitive abilities, Shetland. I tell people, only half joking, that chemo ate my brain. Maybe a little humor?

WHEN YOU DIE, YOU DON'T KNOW YOU'RE DEAD. ALL THE PAIN IS FELT BY THOSE AROUND YOU. SAME THING HAPPENS WHEN YOU'RE STUPID.

Trish

Anonymous

Trishyla - I'm so sorry for your friends. This pandemic just keeps going and makes everything worse. Alberta reveled in having a summer without restrictions. Now they're asking other provinces to take patients and send HCWs. They've cancelled surgeries. Their healthcare system is failing. Now they're asking people to get vaccinated and wear masks. 🤬

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/alberta-has-reached-ou...

Trishyla

I don't get how they could be so remiss in planning ways to keep their citizens safe, Serenity. Are there no professionals in that particular provincial government? Or were they ignored the way our federal government ignored the public health experts under Trump? Either way there's no excuse for putting so many people at risk. It makes my blood boil.

wrenn

Alberta is Canada's Texas.

ETA That doesn't mean all Albertans but the leader is trump-like

Sadiesservant

You beat me to it wrenn...

Anonymous

Trishyla - The people in charge of Alberta are the ones in disaster movies who don't listen to experts (Quebec is the same). Before the pandemic they were cutting healthcare and education. Their decision-making did not improve during the pandemic. Now people with one foot in the grave are getting shoved into them. Hello triage protocols. ☹️