Alcohol
I have read that alcohol consumption is a risk factor for estrogen positive breast cancer. Well, tonight I read that it is a stronger risk for Lobular BC than it is for IDC. I'm sure that's what contributed to mine. I also read that lobular becomes less responsive to the Al's over time. I tried to cut and paste, but the page wouldn't let me cut. I'll try to find another link tomorrow.
Comments
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I would love to see more info about this. I was never a big drinker but enjoyed a beer or glass of wine with dinner. Now I never buy alcohol to drink at home; I only drink when we go out, and myblimit is 1
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I never drank during the day, but I did have wine every night since I was in my 30's. I'll go to my history and try to find that study so that I can at least post the web page. ---- also the part about Al's becoming less responsive over the years. That's not good.
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This is not where I read it last night --- however this is from Breast cancer .org. Alcohol increases risk of estrogen positive Lobular carcinoma by 63%
- TOPIC: Diagnosis and Risk Factors
- TAGS: Invasive or Infiltrating Lobular Carcinoma, Estrogen-Receptor Positive, Progesterone-Receptor Positive, and Alcohol
Research consistently has shown that regularly drinking alcohol increases a woman's risk of hormone-receptor-positive invasive breast cancer. Results from a study agree with the earlier research and also show that drinking alcohol increases the risk of lobular -- but not ductal -- hormone-receptor-positive invasive breast cancer.
Invasive lobular carcinoma (ILC) is breast cancer that begins in the milk-producing lobules that empty into ducts that carry milk to the nipple. ILC is the second most common type of invasive breast cancer. Invasive ductal carcinoma (IDC), which begins in the ducts that carry milk from the lobules to the nipple, is the most common type of invasive breast cancer.
The very large Women's Health Initiative (WHI) study allowed researchers to look at the drinking habits and health histories of nearly 88,000 women. Women joined the WHI from 1993 to 1998. Each woman reported her lifetime drinking habits, including the amount and type of alcohol she drank. During the follow-up period that ended in September 2005, 2,944 of the women were diagnosed with invasive breast cancer. The researchers compared the drinking habits of women diagnosed with invasive breast cancer to the drinking habits of women who didn't develop invasive breast cancer.
- Just one drink a day doubled the risk of hormone-receptor-positive invasive breast cancer; the more alcohol a woman consumed, the more likely she was to develop hormone-receptor-positive breast cancer.
- Drinking alcohol increased the risk of lobular, but not ductal, hormone-receptor-positive invasive breast cancer.
- The risk of lobular hormone-receptor-positive invasive breast cancer was 63% greater in women who drank any amount of alcohol compared to women who never drank. This difference was significant, which means it was likely because of drinking and not just due to chance.
- The risk of ductal hormone-receptor-positive invasive breast cancer was 18% greater in women drank alcohol compared to women who never drank. This difference wasn't significant, which means it could have been due to chance and not because of drinking.
- Drinking alcohol didn't increase the risk of hormone-receptor-negative invasive breast cancer.
It's not clear why alcohol affected the risk of lobular and ductal hormone-receptor-positive breast cancer differently.
Estrogen can cause hormone-receptor-positive breast cancer to grow and alcohol can increase estrogen levels in a woman's body. This estrogen increase may be why there is a link between drinking alcohol and breast cancer.
The results of this study support the results of many other large studies linking alcohol and breast cancer risk. If you want to do everything you can to lower your risk of breast cancer, limiting how much alcohol you drink makes sense.
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Welp, I barely drank when I was first diagnosed with pleomorphic ILC at age 38. A local recurrence, new primary and brain mets later, I just drink what I want. The stress dicates it, and I figure, screw it at this point.
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I'm with Nash.
I think so many of us did the right, science based stuff and still ended up here and we know too many people who abused their body with food and/or drink who are still dancing their days with no cancer. It's a crap shoot. I don't think any of us should do stupid things to our bodies, and each of us defines QOL in their own way/needs but there's just too much they don't know to regret things on our death-beds.
I remember telling my oncologist (when he asked if I was planning to stop taking tamoxifen) that if I took the drugs (which I ended up doing anyway...but...) as was standard of care and I ended up with a recurrence, I would be angrier and more bitter than if I had stopped the meds and developed a recurrence. My terms. He said he'd never heard that and it was very unconventional. My new onco calls me her enigma.....we do what we need to and what we believe to get us to our final destination.
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wallycat, my local recurrence happened while I was on Tamoxifen. It was so annoying.
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It's all about estrogen --- they say alcohol increases estrogen levels --- so do many other things - like being overweight and who knows what else. Before I start the Al's I want my estrogen levels tested. I'm just curious about it. Do I have a very high level of estrogen for my age? Then after the Al's I want to see how low my estrogen levels drop. My Oncotype score indicated that taking the Al's would just reduce my reoccurrence rate by 2 to 3 percent. However, my tumor estrogen level was almost 93% -- so I wonder why the Al's will help so little. Can I do something to reduce my own estrogen levels? If I can then it will be kind of like a game for me to do whatever and then again have the estrogen tested to see if the level drops.
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Jessie, I don't know what your age is, but here is a link posted by bc.org about estrogen levels and exercise. There are estrogen lowering diet changes you can make...and weighing less gives estrogen less of a place to hang out, so to speak since it's stored in fat tissues.
I just had my FsH levels tested last month--they were less than a post-meno woman (which is also me), so I'm assuming my exemestane is working.
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Jessie, when I was diagnosed at age 38, I was underweight and a life long high level competitive athlete. I understand you're looking for some sort of cause or control, but there really isn't any. Also, veering into that territory starts to blame to victim. The cancer is going to do what the cancer is going to do.
Both my parents and my FIL died of cancer. As I stated above, I've been through all sorts of hell and back with this crap and now have brain mets. And the cancer situation in our family is not b/c of lifestyle choices. No known genetic issue has been found, either.
So, no, it's not all about estrogen.
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Clair -- Do FsH levels measure estrogen levels? I'm way past menopause so I assume my estrogen levels are not that high. However, years ago I had fibroid tumors that were removed when I was in my 30's. The doctor said if I could wait until menopause they would shrink because of my lowered estrogen levels, but that didn't happen. Years later in my late 50's I had an ultrasound and those darn fibroids had come back --- so I still had plenty of estrogen after menopause. I can lose weight and I did quit drinking 2 years ago, but intense exercise may be a little much for me. Guess I'll need to try )-:
Nash -- you really have been through a horrific experience with cancer. Both Claire and I lost our husbands at a young age to cancer so we've also been through horrible experiences --- now we have cancer. I do need to learn as much as I can about breast cancer in hopes of increasing my odds of remission. You are right - I do need to feel some control. That's just my personality.
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No, FSH measures follicle stimulating hormone
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Jessie, I didn’t know about your hubbie. Or Claire’s. I’m so sorry. No words
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Hi all,
I'm getting my terms mixed up, but somehow my hormone levels were tested by my naturopathic oncologist. I had to get a blood test, and all that, and I had access to my lab reports through my patient portal. Anyway, the report showed they were sure suppressed.
I agree with nash--little c is at times impossible to pin down as to why it happens to some and not others--hence the fear of cancer. I do what I can and what I feel is right to do (lifestyle, exercise, low BMI, supplements, Aromasin, etc.) because of what I found through my own research to "try" to protect me from recurrence--but the bottom line is at least for me, it's always out there, somewhere, lurking and waiting to get me, and that causes me anxiety. I've been burned before, through my own late husband's cancer dx, tx and death--so I don't trust completely. Somehow I'm able to live pretty well in spite of my PTSD and medical anxiety.
If I drink too much on occasion, like vacation, or holiday, I hope that my choices above will help protect me when I do.
Claire in AZ
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PS my lab reports showed total estrogen serum levels and a breakdown of estradiol, FSh, etc... The total was post-menopausal, at 98. Estradiol very low, so was FsH etc. So you can ask to have your hormone levels tested, but it only shows part of the picture as I mentioned above. My naturopath also tested for CTCs, and I had zero--but that also is just a window we look into to see if there were any circulating tumor cells in that sample of my blood. IOW, we looked in a window but can't tour the whole house to see what else is going on. That's the reality that we somehow live with--the not knowing.
Claire
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Jessie - the estrogen percentage on the pathology report for the tumor itself does not measure estrogen, but rather the ability of the tumor to be fed by any estrogen. The 93% you stated is actually the percentage of estrogen receptors, not actual estrogen, on the slide looked at under the microscope. This figure is arrived at by looking at 100 cells and counting how many out of that 100 have a receptor - for you 93 out of 100 had a receptor. What this means is that the tumor potentially has a greater ability to be fed by estrogen than a tumor with fewer receptors.
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I may also emphasize there is a growing body of research that seems to support parabens (in our beauty products) as endocrine disruptors, meaning they are bad for us when we are trying to suppress estrogen levels as much as possible.
I use organics and other products that are fragrance free (or use essential natural oils only) and state paraben free on the product. Bottom line is, inform yourself, make as many good choices with that information as you can, and enjoy life now. I guess the story I tell myself is that if I do have a recurrence I can at least look back and say I did everything I could and used all the knowledge I had to keep it at bay, in the hopes I don't have any regrets if I do have a recurrence.
Hugs
Claire
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I was watching news last night and the low-fat thing reared its ugly head again. Like many of you, I was 1 point from being underweight (BMI 19), exercised religiously and did a variety, vegetarian, low fat, blah, blah. So that is my PTSD --that if you listen to the science-babble and fail, then you feel left high and dry and lied to. Of course science just doesn't work that way...and people are different...and we know what we know but only so far and so much, which is why I take stuff with a grain of salt. It isn't that I am unwilling to make positive changes, it is just that in the back of my head, I doubt any of it matters much in 100% terms. That's where QOL comes in. If I don't have time to exercise, I don't stress, if I go out for a pizza, I don't stress. None of us will live forever, so we have to make our choices based on joy and opportunity and health...a big juggling act.
As for estrogen...you can read just as many conflicting theories on that:
https://consumer.healthday.com/cancer-information-...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC33178...
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-07/pf... (mouse study)
There are also some peer reviewed papers that indicate cancer can adapt to low estrogen and by adding it back in, kills it off ..I'll spare you with all the links.
Just to say, they just do not know enough.
So, we can drive ourselves crazy and jump through hoops on the latest talking point, or try to live as healthy and fun-love-filled life as we can and hope for the best. AT least if we die earlier, we'll have had a great ride.
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wallycat I completely agree.
I am fellow ILC and after consulting with two eminent Oncologists I joyfully continue to enjoy my wine😜
They both said so long as I wasn't drinking a bottle a night there was no real evidence that a glass of wine a night would cause or contribute to either the cancer in the first place or a relapse.
Happy Days..we've been thru enough crap..enjoy what life you have and don't regret👏
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I'm with Wallycat.
Just for the record, I think it's possible to have a recurrence from stressing about all the relatively minor things that could cause a recurrence. I live in the world of Pareto.....focus on the "vital few", which for almost all of us is exercise. And don't worry about perfection, at least not in this world.
I just came back from a weekend of vineyard camping and cycling. Did 36 miles on Saturday which featured a stop at a tasting room/gift shop where I did a tasting, bought a bottle of wine and one of chocolate/port sauce, and some gorgeous large pearl/sterling silver earrings (which I packed up and transported via bicycle back to my car). From there to put up my tent in the vineyard apple orchard, and then tasted more wine. Dinner was prime rib that a local watering hole was featuring. Being asparagus season in Yakima, that was the veg. Delish!!!
Sunday was the Yakima Canyon Ride. It rained all night, so a soggy and chilly time in the tent, the worst being screwing up the courage to visit the porta potty in the middle of the night. But no worse than a bit damp. A 20 oz latte and breakfast croissant fixed (not to mention the car heater) me right up. The ride could have used more food as I gave away 2 of my energy bars that I keep in my pack. But gorgeous and a ton of fun. I make sure I start from the bottom of the canyon so do the 17 mile slow uphill climb first. The trip back is literally a breeze. At one point, bald eagles were circling overhead.
Because I was starving at the end of the ride (actually about 10 miles sooner), I sprang for the large $3 grilled hotdog and a bag of chips. I actually needed the salt. Back to the vineyard tasting room for a beer and a snooze on the lawn. (I didn't care what anyone thought; the sun felt so good.) I had a glass of wine and bought 2 bottles, partly because I stay there gratis, and also because it's a 2004 merlot blend that is drinking perfectly now unavailable anywhere else. I had dinner at a fun new place.
Slept like a log last night in the tent. Got in an early morning vineyard walk with one of the vineyard cats, then both supervised as I packed up the tent. Stopped at a place for fresh local asparagus and back to the watering hole for eggs benedict prior to coming back. Just the most fabulous weekend.
A number of points to this story:
- If I didn't drink wine, I wouldn't be camping at the vineyard. (Know the owner.)
- The weekend featured a lot of exercise.
- I didn't particularly worry about what I ate, but did, on the whole, eat fresh food. (Hotdog and energy bars excepted.)
- The scenery was just stunning. The canyon, vineyard, Horse Heaven Hills, hops fields, vineyards.
- Getting wet wasn't the end of the world. Rain happens.
- Met new people, and learned a lot about how much of Central Washington was once under water during the ice ages.
Back to work and a busy week. But do have to say that a hot bubble bath felt good. - Claire -
I'm 13 years since diagnosis - I have always maintained a good weight, ate healthy, fit, breast fed my 3 kids, and drank wine or beer on occasion. I was diagnosed 3 months before turning 50. Based on all the literature, I did everything "right" not to have breast cancer. But I did - because I had breasts. ILC. 13 years later, I really haven't changed my life style much, except I enjoy alcohol whenever the mood strikes. Plus I'm now 63 - The research seems to change over time - drink red wine, don't drink red wine!! I stopped AIs after 3 1/2 years due to side effects (2010). As was mentioned above - QOL {quality of life (not quantitiy)} is most important. Everything in moderation.
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Just met my new oncologist yesterday and decided I'd keep him (haha). He said 3 glasses of wine a week is okay. I figure that I average that--some weeks none, and some weeks a bit more.
He didn't have anything very new or revealing to say about ILC, either. 3-5 hours exercise a week minimum and get your heart rate up over 100 at least when exercising. He did share to be careful taking too much calcium because the newest research says too much can exacerbate potential of heart disease later (IF you had AC chemo: I did). So I've been cut back to 750 mg of calcium a day. Little red meat, plant-based more than anything, don't eat too much fat, keep BMI down, etc. etc., ILC has a tendency to come back later than earlier, all the stuff we already know about.
He did say research will be completed in about 2 years that is tracking whether 15 years of AIs are better than 10, so by the time I get to 10 in a few years he'll have information for me. My former MO told me that she thinks (if we can tolerate it) AIs could be a lifelong thing. The most concerning side effect is thinning bones, so Dexa scans are in my future while I'm on them. If we have to be careful with calcium and heart disease--then that puts bones at risk. I had osteopenia that was treated with Prolia and is all gone. And weight bearing exercise really helps protect and build bone too, of course.
I figure I'm doing much better in eating and drinking and lifestyle than most--and doing all of the above with the exception of drinking a bit more from time to time--and I have to be okay with it, like Claire in Seattle emphasized.
Claire in AZ
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Claire, so happy to hear you like your new Onco!! That makes a world of difference.
In case you are concerned about calcium supplements, there are some newer thoughts from the 2016 fear of calcium supplements:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/calciu...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5915292/
I'm hopeful that there will be treatment/cure in the next few years so none of us is forced to decide whether to take all this poison!! Best to you!
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I wish it was that simple, don't drink and don't get breast cancer. I'd take that anyday. I wish I could point to something that would lower my risk. Haven't seen anything I could be doing that I was not already doing.
I guess we all have to die of something I wish I could choose not to die from cancer.
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I drink one glass of red wine with dinner. Occasionally one mixed drink if we go out to eat. My oncologist was fine with that and only cautioned that I can't skip one day and have two drinks the next. When I asked him about soy, he said “well, if you read the internet, everyone has a contradictory opinion." He then said that the people in Asia eat more (estrogen-producing) soy than we do and their rate of recurrence is the same. He told me that I could eat what I want but just keep belly fat off. (Easier said than done!) The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that exercise is good for you so I try to walk every day and hope to get back into yoga once my radiation therapy is over
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Everyone who has commented seem to be light drinkers -- I doubt the article applies to you. That was not the case with me --- I drank wine every night for 30 years and I didn't drink one small glass of wine. --- more like 3 glasses and sometimes more. Never drank in the day - just didn't want to. I've never understood why someone would just want one small glass of wine (-: Anyway, since my husband's death I have also gained a lot of weight. I know that I probably have some predisposition for breast cancer, but I really believe my wine drinking and weight gain brought the cancer into an active state. Oh and by the way -- I quit drinking almost 3 years ago because I thought it was causing my weight gain, but I'm sure the cancer was already growing. Lobular is slow growing and has probably been with me for a long time.
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Could be Jessie, but I really wish there was a simple way to prevent BC. Remember when people thought if you didn't smoke you would not get lung cancer. Sure wish we could eradicate cancer of all kinds.
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Hi Jessie....just stop it. We are all looking for a clear "cause and effect". I realized that in my case, the greatest risk factor was not having had children. But neither of my sisters did either. Being a Boolean Algebra nerd, I looked at this as an OR gate with several thousand potential inputs. At that point, I moved on.
Enjoying a glass of splendid wine as I write this. I have other fish to fry. (Not to mention that a good fish & chips goes well with beer! Happy to report that it will be a good hops crop this season.)
Feel better. I do recommend exercise as it's the magic bullet for a number of ills. At this point, I am more concerned about having the flexibility, strength and stamina to do things such as hiking, skiing, walking, and cycling well into my dotage. - Claire
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I had mixed lobular and ductal. Does that mean I should drink half as much🍷 or twice as much🍻? I seldom drink, just a few times a year at family gatherings, and if I can't drink to help tolerate some in-laws, I'd have more than cancer to worry about! When I had endometrial cancer at age 58, my GYN was shocked at how high my hormone count was, and that I was nowhere near menopause yet. Looks like a total hysterectomy didn't bring those hormones down since my breast tumor was 99%/97%. I'd be tempted to say "screw it" and drink more, but I had a nephrectomy in September and I keep forgetting to ask if it's okay to drink. I wish my damn body parts (what I have left) would cooperate with each other better. What's good for one part seems bad for another. A high protein diet would help me lose the weight I gained from quitting smoking last year, but that's not good for my remaining kidney. I guess I should live on fruits and vegetables. Wine is made from fruit.
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Wallycat...wow that study you posted on hormones after breast cancer was so interesting! This is exactly what I have been saying and hoping for! Right now most MOs do NOT test our hormones except to see if we are in menopause. You have to go to a naturopathic doc if you want hormone testing. I also was happy to see the article talk about the role of testosterone in treating breast cancer. Testosterone has bee shown to elevate the side effects of anti hormone treatment. I'm more optimistic that this will be the way of thinking in the future. Good luck to all.
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Just came across your post, Jessie. I used to enjoy drinking, a lot. Not all the time, not every day, but I was not a glass of wine at dinner girl, more like a six-pack. I wanted to mention this link: https://community.breastcancer.org/livegreen/bpa-a...
There is a Think Pink Live Green place on this website that talks a little about this. I used to think my drinking brought this on, I am 55 years old and I've been a drinker my entire life, it is in my genes and my dad does not understand now that I can't have a six-pack with him when I come to visit. I've read the articles, beer or wine, doesn't matter, you can't save up the 5 drinks (one a night) and have them all at once. The thing that really bothered me is I had to ASK my doctor - they should tell you this if it is so bad for us HER2+ women. It's nice to see someone talking about it. I try to drink less the majority of the time, but one day last week was very difficult at work and my husband said, let's have a beer, and so I did, and I had more than one. He also encourages me to live my life, Claire, as you said. I need to work on that exercise part, I think that was one of the things I should have been doing all along. This link I shared talks about changes in our environment that might play a role in why we are sick now. Things I didn't know about before, like the word HER2. Cheers, and thank you for the positive comments that make me smile.
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