Alternative medicine remains an ethics-free zone

Anonymous

pressing my LIKE, LIKE button for Kadia..

sceptic isn't, but strident is a little bit negative in my mind.  Much prefer to look at both sides of a question, yes, skeptically sometimes, but to see if there might be some value.

It's the STRIDENT "this is the way, the only way" that I think leaves out many viable options.

Anonymous

The title of this thread certainly qualifies as STRIDENT

"Skeptic, not a dirty word", your opinion, not mine, I would be very offended to be called one

Kadia

Seems to me people who question big Pharma are also skeptics! Without skeptics, questioners and rebels, this world would be a terrible place!

Anonymous

I'm sure Kadia you know the difference between a "skeptic" and the quality of being skeptical 

Kadia

Being skeptical--that is, questioning and asking for evidence and rigorous science--is the main characteristic of the group called "skeptics." I see little difference between the label and the quality.

That said, I do wish that some of the skeptical publications/blogs that focus on medicine turned their rigorous eye on mainstream practices/processes more often. However, given the nearly complete lack of oversight and accountability in alternative medicine, it's not surprising that that's where they focus their efforts. 

Anonymous

I see a huge difference, as one does not have to be a groupie to be skeptical.

Ha ha ha, you will never see the day, it is a well known fact that the very-well organized skeptics groups are funded by BigPharm.  

Their mission: to eliminate, suppress, or hamper with, anything that competes with the sale of drugs and surgery. It's here to make sure that "treatment," rather than "prevention," or "a cure," stays the "standard of care" in North American Health Care. For them, it's all about pharmaceuticals controlling the North American Health market

The last annual report to list donors was published in 1991 where we find all our toxic friends: Monsanto and Archer Daniels Midland (both of genetic engineering fame), the Nutrasweet Company (neurotoxic aspartame etc.), Union Carbide (as in Bopal disaster), the producers of pesticides, fertilizers, and fluoride Dow Chemical, Dupont, Cargill etc., the biochemical warfare and pharmaceutical producers Eli Lilly, the Uniroyal Chemical Company, all the big petroleum and pharmaceutical companies, and various refined sugar producers and refined food producing giants. Two thirds of the world's economy is controlled by this list of North American Big Business.  

Anonymous

Maud - those "front groups" as they are known, are in EVERYTHING.  And with the new USA Supremem Court rulings, giving a "voice" ( $$$$$$$) to corporations, it's getting worse - on ALL sides.  Tragic really.  At least in those "old days" we used to be able to SEE who was giving the $$ to these groups - and laugh thru our tears at the hypocrisy.

But what I know is that those "front groups" are on all sides.  FInding it very unsettling to see how much of our supplements ( Vitamin C) are imported from countries with NO OVERSIGHT.

Anonymous

China exports more than 80 percent of the world's ascorbic acid

http://themoderatevoice.com/14159/china-has-near-monopoly-on-world-vitamin-c-production/

That's why it's so critical to buy high quality vitamins from reputable brands which have stringent quality control in place and market pharmaceutical grade supplements

Anonymous

yikes - I knew it was high, but not that high...I agree with your advice about using a QUALITY brand of vitamins. 

dlb823

Speaking of just that (buying high quality vitamins from reputable brands), I was floored to read this yesterday...   http://www.reformer.com/ci_20194274/p-g-buys-new-chapter?source=most_viewed

sweetbean

I agree with dlb's post that there are good and bad practioners in both fields - I have been lucky in that I have had great conv and alt doctors/practioners throughout my treatment.  I was able to wade through the bullshit of snakeoil salesmen on the alt side and pushy enough to get the best treatment from the conventional side.  I think there are benefits to both.  I think this thread is in the wrong place - it should be somewhere else.  People would be howling if I posted "Why Chemo Will Kill You" in the chemotherapy forum. For the record, I don't actually think that - I did ACT+H and did fine.  But I credit a lot of my alt therapies for keeping me healthy and strong during treatment.  I think this thread should be move.

Anonymous

I too am floored Dlb  New Chapter is one of the best out there and one I was relying on

No longer to be trusted ......P&G ??  don't they make soap full of crap ?? 

That's just great !

"Procter & Gamble is a global company that provides consumer products in the areas of pharmaceuticals, cleaning supplies, personal care, and pet supplies". 

dlb823

Actually, a friend told me that P&G was responsible for pet deaths a few years ago due to some bad ingredients in IAMS pet foods.  I don't recall the full story, but I'm equally diasppointed that New Chapter would sell to P&G.   

Anonymous

THAT IS A TRAGEDY - New Chapter was so good - damn!

AlaskaAngel

The whole topic of who to trust and what and why is very challenging, whether one is discussing conventional or alternative.

As pathetic as it genuinely is, I got such a laugh out of the news today that is "letting us know" that it is safe for women to become pregnant after having toxic therapies for breast cancer. I'm not laughing at the women who have unfortunately had bc and want to become pregnant at all. It is just that after contemplating all the do's and don't's over the last 10 years since my treatment, it sounds very much to me like the Evil Estrogen that modern medicine has put the hex sign on for so long is FINALLY acquiring a more accurate evaluation..... after so many years of making women with bc paranoid about the use of it, and dusrupting any focus on what damage there may be by going to the nth degree with medical recommendations to completely eliminate it from all of the systems in our bodies where it has a healthy function.

Dr. Lee was exploring the basis for hormonal treatments. It was difficult back then to initiate gold standard trials about it and I give him credit for not just caving in to conventional medicine's failure to conduct trials. Even though his knowledge was still limited about it when he died, at least he was not summarily throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

A.A.

Kadia

Maud wrote:

" it is a well known fact that the very-well organized skeptics groups are funded by BigPharm."

Source, please? Reliable/reputable preferred.  

Anonymous

Kadia, YOU google, you might learn a thing or two in the process  The source is right under your nose in my post.....hint hint 1991 annual report.... 

hmmmm....am starting to notice you questioning my posts on different threads, what's up with that ?? 

Kadia

Sigh. I thought it was the job of the person making the claim to back it up. Oh well. I'll keep reading my non big Pharma funded skeptical sources, as well as sources that show quality research on complementary/integrative care, for a nice, well-rounded, factual outlook.



As for overlapping threads, some of our interests overlap. Don't take it personally.

Anonymous

How about sharing that show quality research on complementary/integrative care instead of bragging about it, isn't it what this board is all about ?  

candygurl

OMG there are SO many brands and types of vitamins to choose from, yet the various brands are FAR from being equal. If you buy the cheapest supplements from the pharmacy, you'll end up with big pharma franken supplements, an inferior product that not only may not improve your health, but can even make you sick. Many of their brands are a waste of money, yet trade marketing tactics will not reveal such. Most are synthetic and contain additives that could actually make your cancer worse.

Anonymous

Lol Zuvart, franken supplements, that's a good one and you're absolutely right, they could make someone sicker

AA, I agree, it doesn't take a wizard to figure out that the bottom line is estrogen dominance, yet, again, Big Medicine is not addressing the cause (our liver, adrenals, thyroid, etc. etc), merely putting a 'bandage' on the problem. And the problem remains unresolved, could this be why stats are so bleak  

dunesleeper

I highly recommend the book that gave me the courage to decide to use alternative medicine to build up my immune system so that it could do its job of eliminating the cancer. The book is called "You Did What? Saying No To Conventional Cancer Treatment." It is written by Hollie and Patrick Quinn. Hollie was 27 when she was diagnosed. She is living WELL, having chosen natural herbs and supplements, nutrition, stress relief, and exercise.

I was trained in alternative medicine, as an acupuncturist. I know the limits of mainstream medicine in regard to chronic illnesses. I know that alternative medicine can achieve dramatic results. Still, when this happened to me, the mainstream cancer teams were well organized, while in my area, the alternatives were scattered. Being scared, I went along with the mainstream approach, even though it made no sense to me.

This book was just the nudge I needed to make me decide not to poison my body with chemotherapy. I am in the process of putting together an alternative treatment team. I did have a mastectomy done and 31 lymph nodes removed, of which one was cancerous. I am trying to get lots of antioxidants to help with all the free radicals being produced while my body is trying to repair itself from the surgery. I've had special bloodwork done for my alternative doctor who prescribes high quality supplements, and I will see him next week to see what new supplements I will be taking. On March 31st, I will meet with an herbalist. After that, I'll schedule with a nutritionist and an acupuncturist. I need to find someone who can teach me stress relief techniques. On April 4th I meet with the medical oncologist because I should hear what he/she has to say. However, I don't think I am going to let him/her poison my body, drain my immune system, and make me sick. 

I feel so very much better having made this decision. I'm not going to get sick by taking the standard treatment. I'm going to be getting stronger all the time.

Anonymous

DuneSleeper - except for the mx, I had an excisional biopsy and nodes removed.  We are peas in the pod.

That is why I like the Alternative Forum and Complementary - Alternative threads.  We are kindred spirits wading through millions of possibilities that could combine to make our particular challenge fair better, even disappear, hope of hopes.  We are forced to pull together our own team because in Alts there is seldom a clinic that does it all for cancer.

WHY do the alternatives not say what they can and cannot do?  BECAUSE they are legally not allowed to say anything they do can do anything at all except to 'support your health'.  Any business or doctor who says more, watch out.

TheNewMe - it seems to me that your passion is to forewarn bc patients that alternative therapies need to be studied thoroughly and to trust no one when making their decisions. 

That considered, I would have to say the same thing about 'conventional' treatments much of the time, but not all the time. 

But, of course, I would not go to the conventional forum and post a disparing gesture for those who have placed their hope in those treatments.  But that is me.        

•  
  •  
    • Have you used any alternative treatments that could supplement your traditional treatments? 
    • What were your experiences? 
    • The experiences of loved ones? 
    • Why are you so wary?  

I know why I am so wary of conventional treatments.  I found I was expected to just accept the rx and dx and treatment and not question what was really going on, and how WE would handle it when I dealt with most MDs.  I witnessed the oncs kill my BIL with one last double dose of chemo when he was at his lowest physically, saying they got it all for now but one more time for the road, and he was dead within hours.  I was horrified by the swift and erring treatment my bc SIL received with no questions asked, no explanations given..... with the chemo she nearly died a few times, she had boils in her vagina and anus, she was in agony and told she was allergic.... with the biopsy, her neck was crunched and she could not move right for months.... with the rads she was burned so one could stick several fingers deep inside and she was infected and told it was normal.....  my mother, another story..... and all these are but a few and the MDs did not tell anyone what would really happen, that they did not really know the outcome of treaatment and that for all the pain and cost and loss of QOL they would not have much more chance for mor etime in life, that was them, not everyone I know, but still..... we cannot lump everything under CONVENTIONAL is ethics-free and ALTERNATIVE is ethics-free..... it is about being so very careful for our own sake, knowing what we believe and hope and finding our way. 

At least I know that these experiences are not why I chose alternatives foremost, and conventional secondary for my health.  I chose them because I have experienced personally for over two decades that when I am careful and when I do my footwork, I find good and exacting results for what ails me, and I remain whole and strong.  In bc challenge, the conventional tests help, the surgery, I am grateful for, but darn it if I did not end up with an ethics-free surgeon, despite all my concerns and questions, I still missed by far in seeing the real him.

AlaskaAngel

Essa....

My heartfelt sympathy for you, for your treatment by an ethics-free surgeon. Appallingly, my initial conventional medically-trained and fully licensed biopsy surgeon was also ethics-free. She has skipped her way from state to state and remains fully licensed to "practice".

I have worked in conventional medicine. It is no different than any other bureaucracy in its priorities other than that it has more leeway in manipulating people through trust and dependency when it comes to complex decisions in times of crisis and treatment.

Thank you for the reading suggestion, dunesleeper.

AlaskaAngel

Anonymous

About that homeopathic trial and Erndst.

One simply cannot call that a dose.  A dose is not every four hours for seven days.  

In homeopathy, the case is considered for THE INDIVIDUAL until the one remedy is chosen, the DOSE given ONCE and watched.  Then if needed, the remedy is given again and watched, it could take hours or a few days to decide the first time did not take or was not the perfect remedy.  Usually, the next DOSE is given at a higher level, such as 200C goes to 1M.  And true homeopaths know when to use the lower over the higher, but I think that they choose mostly because of the patient..... a small animal would respond to a lighter remedy of 6C, a man with influenze would need the stronger of 1M or 10M, but not always the case.... and then they choose based on the deegree of symptoms.

When attempting to ward off the flu, for instance, the remedy might be pre-determined according to the cases of a homeopath who has managed to assist several patients in the same way, and this is how the trial pre-surgery mentioned on this thread was determined to be tested.  

But it is really not how homeopathy works and cannot be considered a means to make a decision on if one would ever use it for anything they neeed, and even for cancer.... because cancer is now considered one of the miasms - an immaterial substance that creates disease by taking over the vital force - and where there once were three miasms, psychosis, syphillis and psora..... there now are more, including TB then cancer.  Then Dr. Rajan Sankaran added malaria, typhoid, leprosy, and malaria.  For more on the cancer miasm, iif you can handle it becasue it may be too revealing to face for some... see the homeopathy thread, this  site....

 http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/121/topic/784258?page=1#post_2924245

Just saying, the trial mentioned on this thread just is not a true trial to weigh in on when deciding one's healing.  Especially since taking the same lower level remedy OVER AND OVER AGAIN OMG WILL WILL cause the very symptoms that one is hoping to alleviate.  Thank goodness the trials were not for long and I do hope the remedy was neutralized with an appropriate anecdote.

The Cancer Miasm -  linka bove, worth reading the thread annd the link provided on that thread that goes to cancer miasm.... another one of the alternatives that one must take responsibility to study and find a pro and decide what is best for themselves, but definitely not an unethical suggestion.

abigail48

I think the fda doesn't allow reccommendations as to value on supplements

abigail48

yes, essa, heartfelt sympathies.

I translated a few sentences years ago when I had access to the das dictionary:  one was:  some illnesses can be cured by prayer, soma by prayer & herbs, & some can't be cured. 

this is probably the latter if it changes the dna nothing will holf it back forever.

I imagine they're working on this:  finding the mutated gene & somehow extracting it or the strand of dna affected, & zapping it for a cure.

abigail48

malory 107:  I'm using homeopathy & I'd be very interested in your horror story about it

Anonymous

Welcome to the homeopaths and acupuncturists !!!  It's a privilege to have you with us, please share every step of the way 

Dunesleeper, title noted, thanks

Essa, I'm heading for that link, thanks 

thenewme

Wow.  Just wow.

-Evil Estrogen

-Dr. Lee

-Hollie Quinn

-Big Pharma

-Zapping for the cure

-Cancer miasm

-Homeopathy

-Skeptic as a dirty word

OMG, I started this thread as a discussion about ethics, or the general lack of, (*MY* opinion) in Alternative Medicine, but it seems to have instead morphed into a bizarre role-call of specific examples.  Interesting twist. 

From the article I cited above, the following quote seems perfectly illustrated here.

"The undeniable fact, however, is that the information supplied by practitioners of alternative medicine is often incomplete, wrong or dangerously misleading to the point of seriously endangering public health and thus violating medical ethics."