Steve Jobs & his liver transplant

Anonymous

I have deleted my posts as this was obviously not the forum for that discussion .  Ethics have no tie to wealth.   I am in awe of the great humanitarian accomplishments of Bill and Melinda Gates, Warren Buffet, and Pierre Odidyar who just happen to be four of the richest people in the world.  I think it is safe to say that I am not jealous of the wealthy.

Celtic_Spirit

Black-Cat - I'm sorry you deleted your posts. I thought they were interesting.

Anonymous

Thanks, Celtic.  I deleted the posts because they were upsetting some members. I would have left them up if there were just the ad hominem attacks  but  some people seemed pretty distraught over what I wrote.

I don't post any information that I can't back up with fact and I usually ignore ad hominem attacks but thought better of it in this one situation, due to the distress my words were causing some members.

scrappywc

I think we would all do whatever we could to extend our lives. However, thats not why she posted her comment. Being that this is a breast cancer site I have to point out that you or I would not be able to get a organ transplant with active cancer. Somehow Steve (God rest his soul) was able to get around the major hurdle of cancer being an absolute contradiction to any organ transplant.

Kaara

One of the primary reasons cancer patients are not good candidates for organ translplants is because of the fact that you must take drugs that suppress your immune system to prevent rejection of the organ, and that would allow any cancer in your body to get out of control.

The fact that Jobs was able to get the transplant, unfortunately, did not help his prognosis or extend his life beyond what was predicted for his type of cancer, which shows that money or circumstance in life cannot buy good health if it is not meant to be.  May he rest in peace. 

Halah

For all we know, Steve could have been in remission and developed liver disease thus the possible reason for the transplant. No one knows anything about his health except what he and his family disclosed, which isn't much. Even now, it hasn't been officially disclosed how he died. All the media outlets assume pancreatic cancer. But with his type of cancer dx, he could have lived years. Could his death might have had something to do with the liver transplant itself? Who knows.

exbrnxgrl

According to this morning's San Jose Mercury News, "Steve Jobs died from respiratory arrest and a pancreatic tumor, according to his death certificate released Monday". They go on to say that the death certificate was obtained from the Santa Clara County Health Department in San Jose.

Beyond that WintetStorm is correct in that his family disclosed little about his condition. I sincerely hope he rests in peace.

Caryn

Halah

I didn't know that, Caryn. I just found an article in ibtimes (see here) where it is questioned as to whether or not the opoids caused the repiratory arrest. Since there was no autopsy and no statements from anyone (family or medical community), it is anyone's guess. But since they didn't mention anything about his liver, that leaves that out as cause of death. In the end of the article, it states "None of Jobs' family members or Apple representatives have issued a statement regarding the cause of Jobs' death."

It will be a week tomorrow that he died. Rest easy dear sir. 

leaf

We just don't know.  He could have died of respiratory arrest from pneumonia from an infection from the immunosupressant drugs he probably needed to take from his liver transplant.  

I definitely do not want to judge Steve Jobs about his treatment decisions.  Who are we to judge them?  We don't know hardly anything about his condition at various points, let alone have the knowledge of his physicians, nor are most of us physicians or transplant experts.  He was a very private person, and I'd want to honor his privacy.  I've had essentially strangers judge my treatment decisions (which were not life threatening), and I can tell you that I didn't appreciate it, especially since they didn't know me.

It sounds to me that Steve Jobs went through all the standard hoops to get his liver transplant.  Even if that is wrong, and he bought or influenced his way past hoops, he has certainly contributed to the good for the world since his liver transplant (and of course, before his liver transplant.)  Not everyone can say that.  I've certainly talked to nurses who assured me that some liver transplants have been given to people who not only were active alcoholics, they had not even gone through alcohol withdrawal.  (I don't know if that was before the current transplant rules were in place.)

I am very sad that Steve died.  How many other CEOs have you seen get the spontaneous memorials that Steve has generated?  He encouraged us to think different.

lrr4993

Leaf - you hit on something that really bugged me about the original post - the suggestion that a cancer patient is less deserving of a liver than others because of the mortality risk. I find that incredibly insulting and woefully generalized. What if Steve Jobs' liver went to someone with a better long term prognosis who, a year later has one too many at a party, gets behind the wheel, and kills a child due to driving under the influence? Meanwhile Jobs gives us the iPhone and ipad, remains a productive member of society, and funds the retirement of those smart enough to buy apple stock. In the end, who was more deserving? Unless you are God or can predict the future, no one has any business judging who is worthy of a liver transplant.

annettek

May he rest in peace///. like every other person who has passed. rich poor addict saint sinner etc...a life is a life. Deserving of respect. Someone's kid.

Life is simply too short to play god. It's often unfair but no matter the challenges I refuse to join the villagers storming the castle.

PlantLover

I want to apologize to everyone I have upset. 

I also want to make it clear that when I started this thread I was under the impression that cancer patients were not illegible for liver transplants.  It seemed, based on that belief, that someone with financial means was able to circumvent the system.  Apparently, I was wrong.

I was asked early in this thread that if I did have the money and was in a situation where a liver transplant could help, would I get one or refuse it?  Some may not believe what I say, and that's fine, but I will repeat ... Honestly, if I had the means to pay for it and knew that it would do no more than give me a 50/50 chance of prolonging my life for a few more years I would use the money to help a child who needed the transplant. I love my life and want to live but at whose expense? The only way I would feel differently about my choice would be if medical science could make liver transplants available to everyone that needed one. To each their own.  

Based on numerous posts in this thread it seems that some think that I must be a heartless and uncaring person.  I guarantee you nothing could be further from the truth.    It has been painful to read some of your responses and  I'm sure some of you feel you were completely justified. 

Anyway, I hope you will all accept my apology.  I want to be a part of this community, well I really wish I didn't have cancer, but you know what I mean.  I hope we can move past this.

lrr4993

Plant - no one thinks you are a bad person.  You may have made some wrong assumptions, but everyone does that from time to time, myself included.  No worries.

profbee

Nice post, Plant.  It takes a big woman to apologize, and I'm glad you didn't run away from the whole thing.  Everyone should be welcome here.  

dreaming

Cancer patients are not permitted to donate organs or blood, and I have never met a cancer patient in the center I work that had an organ transplant.

I just finish reading a non fiction book about the selling and buying not only organs but blood, people traveling to India and other countries to buy organs from people that really do not know they are selling their life away.

  I know it is not ethical that one is put ahead on a long list of people that can live with a new organ and do not have a terminal illness, according to the Daily Mail in the UK; Mr Jobs preferred to have non conventional treatments first ;pancreatic cancer.

dreaming

Plantover, I was not upset by you, I was upset because I know people that were a year in a waiting list for a liver transplant due to Agent Orange and they died waiting.

You dare say what many are thinking, many patients have been talking about it.

I work with cancer patients and in 20 years I have never heard or knew one that was considered to have one, there is no point, by removing a liver cancer is not going to go away and only would weaken a person with all the rejection meds they have to take,

No I would not take a transplant if I have an active cancer. I had corneal transplants 20 years ago and had to wait almost a year for them, even that I was legally blind. I did not have BC yet.

leaf

Plantlover: I totally agree with Lisa and Profbee.  I certainly don't think you are a bad person.  I learned a variety of things on this thread that I didn't know before.  I certainly don't think you are a heartless or uncaring person.   As Profbee says, it takes guts to apologize.  Transplantation stirs up a lot of touchy subjects, and for some questions, there may be no one right answer for everyone.

cycle-path

dreaming, you said, "Cancer patients are not permitted to donate organs or blood."

With respect, dreaming, this just isn't true. Please see here: http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/SurvivorshipDuringandAfterTreatment/can-i-donate-my-organs 

and here: http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/TreatmentTypes/BloodProductDonationandTransfusion/blood-product-donation-and-transfusion-blood-donation-by-cancer-survivors 

and here: http://www.health-first.org/hospitals_services/hrmc/trauma/donation.cfm 

Although I mean no offense to dreaming, I think it's very important to be accurate with information about organ donation. We should ALL be organ donors! Even stage IV women should list themselves as donors -- we can prolong and improve many lives. 

leaf

Thank you so much for your info and your citations, cycle-path!

208sandy

Plant - see you didn't do any harm with this thread in fact you educated everyone - I did not know cancer patients could donate blood or organs or anything and now I do so the word will spread and many people will be helped - you are a good person.

PlantLover

I was also under the impression that we couldn't give blood or donate organs.  Thanks cycle I'm A neg. and since it's somewhat rare, I think, I used to donate frequently.  I've also been listed as an organ donor for many years.  I'm so glad to know that there may still be parts of me that can be used after I die.  As I said earlier in this thread, I have been thinking about leaving what's left of me to science but for some reason that kinda freaks me out and might be difficult on my family.

Dreaming - we do have similar feelings on the subject.  Thank you for expressing yours.

Also, thank you to those that have accepted my apology.  I honestly didn't mean to make folks so sad, angry, or upset.  I'll try to be more careful what I post in the future.

Halah

Hi PlantLover, I do accept your apology. It was just the timing is all, at least for me. But now it's been over a week almost two since Steve died and you've left me thinking about lots of stuff on the matter. I know what I would and wouldn't do in certain situations. In a nutshell: No liver transplants for me.

cycle-path

PlantLover, since you were diagnosed only 2 years ago they probably won't take your blood donations yet, but eventually you can probably go back to donating. 

One of the reasons I know about organ donations and cancer patients is that I have a friend who received double corneal transplants many years ago. Anyone other than a leukemia patient can donate corneas. Even HIV positive individuals can donate corneas.

My friend is a computer scientist who, though he's not on the level of Steve Jobs, has made a number of important contributions to his field. He is also a long-time and dedicated literacy volunteer. He would not readily have been able to continue either his work or his volunteer activities without his sight, which he was losing rapidly.  

So as I see it, one donation can change many lives. 

dreaming

I refereed to the document by the ACS about blood and organ donations, according to them Blood depends, on the facility, there is no federal rules like for HIV patients that can not.

Organ donation depend on the screening that each facility demands , not all are the same, some are more strict will not accept from cancer diagnosed people, others can, type of cancer time from end of treatment, if it was on situ etc.

 There is documentation of receivers that had cancer or HIV after donation.

I had corneal transplants 10 years before my BC. Even if I need one now, I would not accept one because I do not trust the tools to screen donors.

I work in a Cancer Center and volunteer in a pediatric unit for transplants in another hospital.

I would not donate blood or organs even if I would be told it is OK, I could not have in my conscience that somebody might get a cancer cell from me. I would not want to be responsible, but that is me.