Alternative Treatment

thenewme

Graviola information from Sloan-Kettering:

Graviola, Guanabana, custard apple, paw paw, or soursop

NattyOnFrostyLake

I thought you were taking a break from the group again.

thenewme

Hi Ang7,

I agree.  I've never understood the defense of factually-incorrect information here, in the name of "freedom of speech" or "thinking outside the box" or whatever the "excuse-du-jour."

Anonymous

See, this is what bothers me so much about this site...

'I was told by my doctor'....you want me to take your word for it ?? nay, sources please 

Momine...I guess you had that trick question right up your sleeve, hein ? 

Anonymous

PattyGroves, you're absolutely right, of course.

I HAVE BREAST CANCER, I don't have parkinsons in which case graviola is not recommended. NONE of the studies posted above mentioned this urban legend.

Sloan-Kettering is NOT on MY list of sources.

In 1976, the National Cancer Institute began research on this herbal remedy and the findings concluded with astonishing results. The leaves of the plant were successful in destroying malignant cancer cells.

Another experiment was conducted by Purdue University's School of Pharmacy and Pharmacal Sciences in 1998, which released findings in which two of the compounds from the leaves and fruit demonstrated what scientist refer to as "significant" anti-cancer activities against 6 human cancer cells, including prostate and pancreatic cancers.

___________ 

BOSWELLIA USE IN BRAIN METASTASES

Last year, Dr. Dana Flavin at the Foundation for Collaborative Medicine and Research in Greenwich, CT, reported on a remarkable case of a woman with breast cancer whose multiple brain metastases showed no improvement after two weeks of Xeloda and brain radiation.2 She was then started on boswellia 800 mg three times a day. (Boswellia, also known as Indian frankincense, is an herbal supplement with anti-inflammatory properties and is generally available through retail and online health food stores.) Ten weeks later, a repeat brain CT showed complete resolution of the brain metastases. Impressively, she has been maintained on boswellia for the past four years with no recurrent brain metastasis.

Subsequently, Dr. Flavin has had two more women with brain metastases greatly improve using the same regimen. Reportedly, Harvard's Dana Farber Cancer Center is seeking approval for a clinical trial to study boswellia use in this setting.

In 134 cancer patients receiving BAs, 11 cases of possible adverse effects were reported: nausea/emesis WHO III (one patient), skin rash WHO II (two patients), gastrointestinal pain (two patients), loss of appetite and heartburn (six patients). In the former three patients with nausea/emesis and skin rash, Boswellia administration had to be terminated. 

31 references at http://cam-cancer.org/CAM-Summaries/Herbal-products/Boswellia-spp/Is-it-safe 

NattyOnFrostyLake

Maud, what cracks me up is when someone says, "ask your doctor."

Why? Do they know my doctor? Why would they recommend talking to someone they don't know?

So funny.

NattyOnFrostyLake

Maud, thanks for the info. Dr. Flavin originally worked in one of the German Clinics, didn't she? I was hoping to hear her speak a couple of years ago but missed it. I see Boswellia is getting bigger and bigger. My doc recommends if for arthritis but I didn't know it was related to Frankincense.

I agree, Sloan Kettering is useless. Maybe OK if you have testicular cancer. But they aren't specialists in herbs. . Anybody can put up a database and call it a database. LOL. They're just trying to get on the alternative bandwagon to make a buck.

Anonymous

Patty, anytime I see such a reaction, I think, hum....something about this is threatening to the skeptics....all the more reason to dig further 

Research on paw paw and (or) graviola http://www.pawpawresearch.com/mclaughlin-papers.pdf

_______ 

"In the present investigation, we analyzed the response of cancer cells towards boswellic acids. A comparison of the IC50 values in 60 tumor cell lines showed that boswellic acids inhibited cell lines at higher concentrations than established anticancer drugs.

A major disadvantage of most established anticancer drugs is their severe toxicity on
normal organs. In contrast, boswellic acids are well tolerated AND SEVERE SIDE EFFECTS ARE RARE EVENTS as Pointed out in a recent meta-analysis of clinical trials on Boswellia preparations [17]." 

Pharmaceuticals 2011, 4, 1171-1182; doi:10.3390/ph4081171

Anyhooo, cost me a mint at the health food store today 

Ang7

Maud~

The reason for my "reaction" is that you are stating things as fact.

"graviola will DO NO HARM'

You can guarantee that? 

I can certainly get the information from my doctor for you.  

sweetbean

oof, i met a woman last year who was trying to cure her breast cancer with graviola.  she called it "god's medicine."  it was a spectacular failure, i believe.  really sad - we tried and tried to convince her to have surgery, but she felt it would have meant she didn't believe in God enough. 

On another topic, I saw a woman do really well with brain mets just using homeopathy and high-grade frankiscense.  it was remarkable.  they had done various surgeries, but the tumors kept growing back.  the doctors gave her a few weeks to a few months because they told her they didn't have any other options.  this was about a year ago.  then someone told her about the homeopathy and the frankinscence, and whaddya know, the tumors began shrinking.  i don't know what her current medical condition is now, but she is still alive and i think she is doing pretty well.   

luv_gardening

Ladies, no matter what you believe, this should be about facts, not proving others wrong and clashing egos.  Please can we be polite and respectful?

I have a heap of Graviola in powdered form at home.  I guess I'd use it if I had to, if I had mets.  Just as I would use chemo if there was no other choice.  It's possible that it has to be taken for a long time to cause damage, such as in the Caribbean, but taking large concentrations would be worrying.  Some herbs and drugs come with risks.  Until herbs are given proper trials we're left to fly blind when taking them.  It's only when we have large trials that we can find out the rarer side effects, but this (possibly untreatable) Parkinson's like effect seems rather large in the Caribbean, not rare at all.

J Neural Transm Suppl. 2006;(70):153-7.
Is atypical parkinsonism in the Caribbean caused by the consumption of Annonacae?
Lannuzel A, Höglinger GU, Champy P, Michel PP, Hirsch EC, Ruberg M.

Source
Department of Neurology, University Hospital, Pointe-a-Pitre, Guadeloupe, France. annie.lannuzel@wanadoo.fr
Abstract
An abnormally frequent atypical levodopa-unresponsive, akinetic-rigid syndrome with some similarity to PSP was identified in the Caribbean island Guadeloupe, and was associated with the consumption of plants of the Annonacea family, especially Annona muricata (corossol, soursop) suggesting a possible toxic etiology. Annonaceae contain two groups of potential toxins, alkaloids and acetogenins. Both alkaloids and annonacin, the most abundant acetogenin, were toxic in vitro to dopaminergic and other neurons. However we have focused our work on annonacin for two reasons: (1) annonacin was toxic in nanomolar concentrations, whereas micromolar concentrations of the alkaloids were needed, (2) acetogenins are potent mitochondrial poisons, like other parkinsonism-inducing compounds. We have also shown that high concentrations of annonacin are present in the fruit or aqueous extracts of the leaves of A. muricata, can cross the blood brain barrier since it was detected in brain parenchyma of rats treated chronically with the molecule, and induced neurodegeneration of basal ganglia in these animals, similar to that observed in atypical parkinsonism. These studies reinforce the concept that consumption of Annonaceae may contribute to the pathogenesis of atypical parkinsonism in Guadeloupe.
PMID: 17017523 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

My bold, to point out this is not rare and not treatable with the usual Parkinson's drug, Levodopa.

dunesleeper

I just started eating apricot seeds today. Man they are bitter. It is suggested to start out taking only one an hour. I have taken maybe about 4 so far. These claim to be raw, which is important. If not, they will be useless. I have no tumors to be testing these on, but I feel strongly that they will kill any cancer cells in my body. I have read about these in several books, but the one that comes to mind right now is "World Without Cancer."

Anonymous

Cancer research is ongoing on these important Annona plants and plant chemicals, as several pharmaceutical companies and universities continue to research, test, patent, and attempt to synthesize these chemicals into new chemotherapeutic drugs. In fact, graviola seems to be following the same path as another well known cancer drug - Taxol. From the time researchers first discovered an antitumorous effect in the bark of the pacific yew tree and a novel chemical called taxol was discovered in its bark - it took thirty years of research by numerous pharmaceutical companies, universities, and government agencies before the first FDA-approved Taxol drug was sold to a cancer patient (which was based on the natural taxol chemical they found in the tree bark). With graviola, it has taken researchers almost 10 years to successfully synthesize (chemically reproduce) the main antitumorous chemical, annonacin. These acetogenin chemicals have a unique waxy center and other unique molecular energy properties which thwarted earlier attempts, and at least one major pharmaceutical company gave up in the process (despite knowing how active the natural chemical was against tumors). Now that scientists have the ability to recreate this chemical and several other active acetogenins in the laboratory, the next step is to change the chemical just enough (without losing any of the antitumorous actions in the process) to become a novel chemical which can be patented and turned into a new patented cancer drug. (Naturally-occurring plant chemicals cannot be patented.) Thus far, scientists seem to be thwarted again-every time they change the chemical enough to be patentable, they lose much of the antitumorous actions. Like the development of taxol, it may well take government agenies like the National Cancer Institute and the National Institute of Health to step forward and launch full-scale human cancer research on the synthesized unpatentable natural plant chemical (which will allow any pharmaceutical company to develop a cancer drug utilizing the research as happened with taxol) to be able to make this promising therapy available to cancer patients in a timely fashion.

In the meantime, many cancer patients and health practitioners are not waiting... they are adding the natural LEAF AND STEM of graviola (with over 40 documented naturally-occurring acetogenins including annonacin) as a complementary therapy to their cancer protocols. After all, graviola has a long history of safe use as a herbal remedy for other conditions for many years, and research indicates that the antitumorous acetogenins are selectively toxic to just cancer cells and not healthy cells-and in miniscule amounts. While research confirms that these antitumorous acetogenins also occur in high amounts in the fruit seeds and roots of graviola, DIFFERENT ALKALOID CHEMICALS IN THE SEEDS AND ROOTS HAVE SHOW SOME PRELIMINARY IN VITRO NEUROTOXIC EFFECTS. Researchers have suggested that these alkaloids might be linked to atypical Parkinson's disease in countries where the seeds are employed as a common herbal parasite remedy. Therefore, using the seeds and root of graviola is not recommended at this time.

The therapeutic dosage of graviola LEAF, (which offers just as high of an amount of acetogenins as the root and almost as much as the seed) is reported to be 2-3 grams taken 3 or 4 times daily. Graviola products (capsules and tinctures) are becoming more widely available in the U.S. market, and now offered under several different manufacturer's labels in health food stores. As one of graviola's mechanisms of action is to deplete ATP energy to cancer cells, combining it with other supplements and natural products which increase or enhance cellular ATP may reduce the effect of graviola. The main supplement which increases ATP is a common antioxidant called Coenzyme Q10 and for this reason, it should be avoided when taking graviola.

All available third-party documentation and research on graviola be found at PubMed. A partial listing of the third-party published research on graviola is shown below:

Anticancerous & Antitumor Actions:
Kojima, N. "Systematic synthesis of antitumor Annonaceous acetogenins" Yakugaku Zasshi. 2004; 124(10): 673-81.
Tormo, J. R., et al. "In vitro antitumor structure-activity relationships of threo/trans/threo mono-tetrahydro-furanic acetogenins: Correlations with their inhibition of mitochondrial complex I." Oncol. Res. 2003; 14(3): 147-54.
Yuan, S. S., et al. "Annonacin, a mono-tetrahydrofuran acetogenin, arrests cancer cells at the G1 phase and causes cytotoxicity in a Bax- and caspase-3-related pathway." Life Sci. 2003 May: 72(25): 2853-61.
Liaw, C. C., et al. "New cytotoxic monotetrahydrofuran Annonaceous acetogenins from Annona muricata." J. Nat. Prod. 2002; 65(4): 470-75
Gonzalez-Coloma, A., et al. "Selective action of acetogenin mitochondrial complex I inhibitors." Z. Naturforsch. 2002; 57(11-12): 1028-34.
Chang, F. R., et al. "Novel cytotoxic Annonaceous acetogenins from Annona muricata." J. Nat. Prod. 2001; 64(7): 925-31.
Jaramillo, M. C., et al. "Cytotoxicity and antileishmanial activity of Annona muricata pericarp." Fitoterapia. 2000; 71 (2): 183-6.
Betancur-Galvis, L., et al. "Antitumor and antiviral activity of Colombian medicinal plant extracts." Mem. Inst. Oswaldo Cruz. 1999; 94(4): 531-35.
Kim, G. S., et al. "Muricoreacin and murihexocin C, mono-tetrahydrofuran acetogenins, from the leaves of Annona muricata." Phytochemistry. 1998; 49(2): 565-71.
Kim, G. S., et al. "Two new mono-tetrahydrofuran ring acetogenins, annomuricin E and muricapentocin, from the leaves of Annona muricata." J. Nat. Prod. 1998; 61(4): 432-36.
Nicolas, H., et al. "Structure-activity relationships of diverse Annonaceous acetogenins against multidrug resistant human mammary adenocarcinoma (MCF-7/Adr) cells." J. Med. Chem. 1997; 40(13): 2102-6.
Zeng, L., et al. "Five new monotetrahydrofuran ring acetogenins from the leaves of Annona muricata." J. Nat. Prod. 1996; 59(11): 1035-42.
Wu, F. E., et al. "Two new cytotoxic monotetrahydrofuran Annonaceous acetogenins, annomuricins A and B, from the leaves of Annona muricata." J. Nat. Prod. 1995; 58(6): 830-36.
Oberlies, N. H., et al. "Tumor cell growth inhibition by several Annonaceous acetogenins in an in vitro disk diffusion assay." Cancer Lett. 1995; 96(1): 55-62.
Wu, F. E., et al. "Additional bioactive acetogenins, annomutacin and (2,4-trans and cis)-10R-annonacin-A-ones, from the leaves of Annona muricata." J. Nat. Prod. 1995; 58(9): 1430-37.
Wu, F. E., et al. "New bioactive monotetrahydrofuran Annonaceous acetogenins, annomuricin C and muricatocin C, from the leaves of Annona muricata." J. Nat. Prod. 1995; 58(6): 909-5.
Wu, F. E., et al. "Muricatocins A and B, two new bioactive monotetrahydrofuran Annonaceous acetogenins from the leaves of Annona muricata." J. Nat. Prod. 1995; 58(6): 902-8.
Sundarrao, K., et al. "Preliminary screening of antibacterial and antitumor activities of Papua New Guinean native medicinal plants." Int. J. Pharmacog. 1993; 31(1): 3-6.  

WORLDWIDE ETHNOMEDICAL USES

Brazil for abscesses, bronchitis, chest problems, cough, diabetes, diarrhea, dysentery, edema, fever, intestinal colic, intestinal parasites, liver problems, neuralgia, nervousness, pain, parasites, rheumatism, spasms, worms

Caribbean for chills, fever, flu, indigestion, nervousness, palpitations, rash, spasms, skin disease, and as a sedative

Curaçao for childbirth, gallbladder problems, nervousness, and as a sedative and tranquilizer

Haiti for digestive sluggishness, coughs, diarrhea, fever, flu, heart conditions, lactation aid, lice, nerves, parasites, pain, pellagra, sores, spasms, weakness, wounds, and as a sedative

Jamaica for asthma, fevers, heart conditions, hypertension, lactation aid, nervousness, parasites, spasms, water retention, weakness, worms, and as a sedative

Malaysia for boils, coughs, diarrhea, dermatosis, hypertension, rheumatism, and to reduce bleeding

Mexico for diarrhea, dysentery, fever, chest colds, ringworm, scurvy, and to reduce bleeding

Panama for diarrhea, dyspepsia, kidney, stomach ulcers, worms

Peru for diabetes, diarrhea, dysentery, fever, hypertension, indigestion, inflammation, lice, liver disorders, parasites, spasms, tumors, ulcers (internal), and as a sedative

Trinidad for blood cleansing, fainting, flu, high blood pressure, insomnia, lactation aid, palpitations, ringworms

U.S.A. for cancer, depression, fungal infections, hypertension, intestinal parasites, tumors

West Indies for asthma, childbirth, diarrhea, hypertension, lactation aid, parasites, worms

Elsewhere for arthritis, asthma, bile insufficiency, childbirth, cancer, diarrhea, dysentery, fever, heart problems, kidney problems, lactation aid, lice, liver disorders, malaria, pain, ringworm, scurvy, stomach problems, and as a sedative
 

luv_gardening

Dunesleeper, I eat apricots in summer and save all my apricot pits so if ever I need them I'll have enough to last a while.  I just realised... (hits head softly) The apricot bush in the overgrown part of our property might still be producing fruit.  They are no good to eat as the trunk is damaged and the fruit gets fungus, but would the seeds be safe inside the pit?  Then again... why don't I plant some more? It's autumn here, probably time to plant shrubs and trees. Sheesh, why didn't I think of this before?  Thanks for the unintended wake up call.  Love this forum!!!

exbrnxgrl

Joy,

"Ladies, no matter what you believe, this should be about facts, not proving others wrong and clashing egos.  Please can we be polite and respectful?"

Thanks for posting this. I am interested in learning about both alternative and conventional tx but am frustrated by the type of things you mentioned.

Caryn

Momine

No Maud, there was no trick question. I am just cautious, so I googled. Google immediately yielded several studies on elevated incidence of Parkinson's in areas where people eat this fruit regularly.

I am all for natural remedies and actively look for them. That is why I read threads like this one. But I have learned to double-check any info, because if something has an actual effect, then it does something in the body obviously, and that means potential for side effects. I am not sure why so many people believe that "natural" means harmless.  

luv_gardening

Maud, I wish graviola was as good as claimed, esp. as I have some at home which came from the stem and leaves, but, quoting from your article above.... 

"...the natural LEAF AND STEM of graviola (with over 40 documented naturally-occurring acetogenins including annonacin)......                                 ......  While research confirms that these antitumorous acetogenins also occur in high amounts in the fruit seeds and roots of graviola, DIFFERENT ALKALOID CHEMICALS IN THE SEEDS AND ROOTS HAVE SHOW SOME PRELIMINARY IN VITRO NEUROTOXIC EFFECTS."

 Yet on a couple of PubMed abstracts including the one above, they say it's the annonacin in the leaf and fruit that are doing the harm.  The harm is associated with people so the in vitro plus people being harmed would be enough to take any substance off the market.

We have also shown that high concentrations of annonacin are present in the fruit or aqueous extracts of the leaves of A. muricata, can cross the blood brain barrier since it was detected in brain parenchyma of rats treated chronically with the molecule, and induced neurodegeneration of basal ganglia in these animals, similar to that observed in atypical parkinsonism. These studies reinforce the concept that consumption of Annonaceae may contribute to the pathogenesis of atypical parkinsonism in Guadeloupe.

and this......................................................

Mov Disord. 2008 Nov 15;23(15):2122-8.
Atypical parkinsonism in the Caribbean island of Guadeloupe: etiological role of the mitochondrial complex I inhibitor annonacin.
Lannuzel A, Ruberg M, Michel PP.
Source

INSERM, UMR_S 679, Hôpital de la Salpêtrière,, Paris, France. annie.lannuzel@wanadoo.fr
Abstract

On the French West Indian island of Guadeloupe, atypical parkinsonian patients represent two-thirds of all cases of parkinsonism, which is exceptionally frequent compared to epidemiological data from European countries where atypical parkinsonism accounts for only approximately 5% of all cases. The clinical entity was a unique combination of levodopa-resistant parkinsonism, tremor, myoclonus, hallucinations, REM sleep behavior disorder and fronto-subcortical dementia. Based on the presence or the absence of supranuclear gaze palsy, two subgroups of patients were distinguished. In patients with oculomotor signs that came to autopsy, neuronal loss was found to predominate in the substantia nigra and the striatum but other brain areas were also affected, including the frontal cortex. In addition, tau-containing lesions were detected throughout the brain. Epidemiological data suggested a close association of the disease with the regular consumption of soursop, a tropical annonaceous plant. Experimental studies performed in midbrain cell cultures identified annonacin, a selective mitochondrial complex I inhibitor contained in the fruit and leaves of soursop, as a probable etiological factor. Consistent with this view, chronic administration of annonacin to rats through Alzet osmotic minipumps showed that annonacin was able to reproduce the brain lesions characteristic of the human disease.

PMID: 18816693 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

If you can find a study that is clearer, that would be good, as your search skills are excellent. Maybe because it's in the aqueous extracts of the leaf that makes the leaf powder safe?  But then would it have any active medicinal properties?  Since they were still doing studies 3 years later in 2011 (your first PubMed study), they must have some idea of using it in a harmless way.

Anonymous

Momine, that's not good enough - you say you googled multiple studies in favour of your argument. The courtesy is to post them, like the rest of us do

Joy, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to take up the challenge and I posted all I'm going to post on the subject (have tons of research to do re alternatives to Tamox and AIs before I see my onco next).  Your second reference only refers to your first one ?? and you say a couple of PubMed studies say this or that but then you don't post them ??

I am going to let the 150 plus studies I referenced to above speak for themselves; if anyone cares to dissect them, they can do so at their heart's content.  Did the one and only study you referenced to prove that the Parkinson's was not first and foremost a pre existing condition ?

Speaking for myself, if I weigh the risk of recurrence against the well proven safety of the graviola leaves, guess what I am going for ?  I obtain the extract from a highly reputable company which would not risk bottling "poison" as some of you describe graviola.  There is a risk warning on the bottle for anyone who has any neurodegenerative disorder, Parkinson's disease, or taking any antihypertensive or MAO inhibitor.

luv_gardening

Maud, If you look again you'll see I posted two different PubMed studies with links. I'll repost them below. You've posted an article with lots of references but no links.  I'll see what I can find.

PMID: 17017523 J Neural Transm Suppl. 2006;(70):153-7. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17017523
PMID: 18816693 Mov Disord. 2008 Nov 15;23(15):2122-8. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18816693

luv_gardening

Maud, I found the pages you quoted from.  The text body came from an ayervedic site selling Graviola, and the references came from another site also selling Graviola.  None had links.

The references are for in vitro or mouse studies. Proving that Graviola can work against cancer is a separate issue to showing it can also cause a serious, deteriorating and debilitating illness.

If you find that an AI causes greater cardiac disease, will you say "Lots of studies show they work and the side effects were pre-existing conditions" and take them anyway?  So why say the same for the Graviola you are taking?

I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to find out what their risks are. I'd like to know if I can use my Graviola or not, and at the moment it looks too risky.

Momine

Maud, links to the studies on parkinson's and graviola are in the foot notes of the wiki entry, among other places. It seems to be a well known side effect of the active ingredient of the plant.

Nobody is telling you to stop taking it or giving you a hard time. We are simply pointing out that it is not "harmless" necessarily.  

With most drugs that work on cancer, we have to weigh the benefit against the toxicity and side effects. Why should we not do the same for supplements? 

Anonymous

Joy, you assume wrong, I forgot to post link as I was busted last night.  I quoted from:

http://rainforest-database.com/plants/graviola.htmed  

You add: "The references are for in vitro or mouse studies".  Well, yours too !!!

The count is still 150 studies studying the benefits of graviola and 2 studies which found that, indeed, graviola did contain some pretty potent molecules. 

Momine, as I've said before on this same thread:

Wiki is the least reliable source when it comes to ANYTHING alternative. It is riddled with quackpot fabulations and delusions.

BEWARE of Quackwatch--biased "research" from Wikipedia

"Watching the Watchdogs at Quackwatch" by Joel M. Kauffman, Ph.D. (Professor Emeritus of the Department of Chemistry & Biochemistry at University of the Sciences in Philadelphia), was published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration which provides a forum for scientific research on topics outside established disciplines of mainstream science. Kauffman is also the author of Malignant Medical Myths: Why Medical Treatment Causes 200,000 Deaths in the USA each Year and How to Protect Yourself.

His website review in JSE examined eight Quackwatch articles for factuality, fairness and scientific currency; Kauffman claimed the articles were "contaminated with incomplete data, obsolete data, technical errors, unsupported opinions, and/or innuendo" and cited the peer-reviewed literature in support of his conclusions. Kauffman wrote that:

"Hostility to all alternatives was expected and observed from the website, but not repetition of groundless dogma from mainstream medicine. It remains a mystery how they [Quackwatch] and I have interpreted the same body of medical science and reached such divergent conclusions.It is very probable that many vistors to the website have been misled by the trappings of scientific objectivity. At least 3 of the activities in the Mission Statement have been shown to be flawed as actually executed. Medical practitioners such as Robert Atkins, Elmer Cranton and Stanislaw Burzynski, whom I demonstrated are not quacks, were attacked with the energy one would hope to be focused on real quacks. The use of this website is not recommended. It could be deleterious to your health"

Momine

The studies are proper studies, so don't dismiss them just because they are cited in a wiki entry.

luv_gardening

Maud, the people with Parkinson's are not mice.   And the proof needed for caution is much lower than the proof that a remedy works.  (First do no harm) Once again, whether it works is a separate issue.  Cyanide probably cures cancer too, but is the cost worth it?  As Momine says, it's about risk assessment.

Anonymous

Momine, really....I am NOT going to bother, you never even bothered to link what you reference to.  And I repeat, wiki is not a credible source for anything having to do with alt med

Anonymous

Joy, I repeat, since your are so intent on being right:

1) I HAVE BREAST CANCER, I don't have parkinsons

2) Speaking for myself, if I weigh the risk of recurrence against the well proven safety of the graviola leaves (150 + studies), guess what I am opting for ?  

On the other hand, you did say:

1) Since they were still doing studies 3 years later in 2011 (your first PubMed study), they must have some idea of using it in a harmless way. Yes, Joy, the studies refer to LEAVES

2) Your extreme caution re graviola despite all those studies versus your willingness to grow and eat apricot seeds is quite baffling to me  

Momine

Maud, the references have already been posted, I believe, but here they are again:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14521988

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16078200

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17017523

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10440304 

luv_gardening

Maud,

1) The Graviola may cause Parkinson's, it's not shown to be a pre-condition.

2) The studies are for the cancer fighting qualities, not safety, so the 150+ studies are irrelevant unless the potential harm is less than the risk from the cancer.

3) I will argue for and against.  I have no "position" to defend.  It's about the truth, not who's right.

4) I like to be prepared.  If I had stage IV then the long term SE's would not be so relevant, so I would need to be informed of the maximum dose per hour or day. Short and long term risk assessment. Completely rational!

Oh isn't this fun.  I love logic! 

NattyOnFrostyLake

Joy, 

There isn't a single standard of logic to determine the truth. Anybody can string assumptions together and call it logic. I think you mean "reasoning" which is a less definitive practice of drawing conclusions. People reason for and against the death pentalty, for example. It doesn't get you any closer to fact-finding.

luv_gardening

Hey Maud, Your first point...  If you've had surgery then you don't have breast cancer, you have a HISTORY of breast cancer.  Doesn't that sound and feel so much better?

Woo hoo, Now we have to change the terrain, as Servan-Schreiber says. And that's why there is no way I will compromise my health with risky drugs such as bisphosphonates.  I use the same criteria for any drug or remedy.  I will research and stockpile the riskier treatments in case I need them in the future, but not to use now. I see us on the search for alternatives as being trail blazers and pioneers, but we could do more harm than good if we take short cuts. 

Patty, good point. Reasoning may be correct, debating even better.  Gish galloping is not reasoning.  Logic is a form of maths and provable.  Evidence based medicine is to some degree provable but depends on the data and many other factors which may be questionable. Saying that 150 studies are better than 1 or 2 is bad logic when the 150 studies are not about the subject of the debate (risk not effectiveness).  Debating the death penalty is a judgement or opinion which cannot be proven, as you say, though statistics can come into it.