I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

YramAL

It's sad that he's a candidate, and it's sad that there are still people that will vote for him because he isn't President Obama. That's their bottom line. Sad.

Mary 

QuinnCat

David Frum, a conservative, tweeted:

If you're not running for president of all the country, you won't be elected president of any of it. 

You hear that Mr. Romney! 

1Athena1

The debates are going to be torturous.

bluedahlia

Hope he has an extra foot and mouth.

lassie11

David Frum grew up in Canada. Sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes, it shows.

crazy4carrots

But conversely, Romney's foreign policy advisor Dan Senor, while born in NY state, also grew up in Canada, and Jon Stewart has just made pure mincemeat of him!  If "y'all" aren't watching The Daily Show tonight, be sure to catch it on the net tomorrow.  Devastating!

duckyb1

OMG.........Romney did it again....................I swear the man has stupid pills for breakfast...................he must want to lose...............lol

CherrylH

Ducky, if he wants to lose, then for the first time ever, I agree with him!!!

suzieq60

Even though I don't agree with socialist politics - I hope you guys don't end up with Romney as president - his religion alone is enough to put me off. Whereas we can't wait to get rid of our communist atheist Prime Minister who is really destroying our country.

bluedahlia

I read a little of the Book of Mormon, and I'm a live and let live kind of person.  That's some Scary stuff!  No offence to any Mormons out there.  I guess most religions are scary.  This is JMO!

alexandria58

Blue: read Under the Banner of Heaven, about the Mormon Church.  Truly scary.  While I do believe that all religions have the potential to create crazy fanatics  (well, maybe not Unitarians, but it's not clear that's a religion) and that members of any religion can be good and kind people, I find the Mormon Church to be high on the most nutty list.

1Athena1

'Morning, everyone. I woke up with a semi sick feeling today about Romney. It just is not good for the political landscape to have such a vacuum. Historically, that sort of void leads to extremism and possibly violence. Sorry for sounding alarmist.

Anyway, here is what old style conservative David Brooks had to say about Romney, whose ideas he calls libertarian:

This comment suggests a few things. First, it suggests that he really doesn't know much about the country he inhabits. Who are these freeloaders? Is it the Iraq war veteran who goes to the V.A.? Is it the student getting a loan to go to college? Is it the retiree on Social Security or Medicare?

It suggests that Romney doesn't know much about the culture of America. Yes, the entitlement state has expanded, but America remains one of the hardest-working nations on earth. Americans work longer hours than just about anyone else. Americans believe in work more than almost any other people. Ninety-two percent say that hard work is the key to success, according to a 2009 Pew Research Survey.

It says that Romney doesn't know much about the political culture. Americans haven't become childlike worshipers of big government. On the contrary, trust in government has declined. The number of people who think government spending promotes social mobility has fallen.

The people who receive the disproportionate share of government spending are not big-government lovers. They are Republicans. They are senior citizens. They are white men with high school degrees. As Bill Galston of the Brookings Institution has noted, the people who have benefited from the entitlements explosion are middle-class workers, more so than the dependent poor.

Romney's comments also reveal that he has lost any sense of the social compact. In 1987, during Ronald Reagan's second term, 62 percent of Republicans believed that the government has a responsibility to help those who can't help themselves. Now, according to the Pew Research Center, only 40 percent of Republicans believe that.

The Republican Party, and apparently Mitt Romney, too, has shifted over toward a much more hyperindividualistic and atomistic social view - from the Reaganesque language of common citizenship to the libertarian language of makers and takers. There's no way the country will trust the Republican Party to reform the welfare state if that party doesn't have a basic commitment to provide a safety net for those who suffer for no fault of their own.

Full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/18/opinion/brooks-thurston-howell-romney.html?_r=1&hp

alexandria58

Well, bravo, David Brooks. Romney's remarks are not just his - they are typical of the REpublican party of today.  What I hope most now is for a Democratic sweep of Congress as well as an Obama win that will illustrate just how empty the philosophy is behind the current Republican party.  With good luck, a lot of the state wide REpublican office holders that allowed for the greatest vote suppression scandal in 40 years will also be kicked out.  Maybe then we can have a return to a reasonable Republican party - where people like Bob Dole can work with Dems for a functioning government.

Anonymous

SusieQ - believe  it ain't "socialism" - that's a "dog whistle" - SCARE WORD, used by those who want a return to the Plutocracy FDR managed to rise above - and create a VIABLE MIDDLE CLASS in the action.  Honest, the word is truly used as a cover, for, well, racism, classism - for a start.

Ducky - love the "breakfast"...lol, lol..more tee, hees..ain't it the truth

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/09/real-romney-is-a-sneering-plutocrat.html

Favorite reporting this am - "I used inelegant words" - yeah, right, inelegant.  Millions of hard working people working several jobs at minimum wage, renting so not getting a HUGE "GOVERNMENT HANDOUT" in mortgage deduction, expecting the fairness of HELP in providing basic services for their families....

Oh, yeah, just inelegant words - Willard is ENTITLED to keep his massive wealth OFF SHORE to avoid paying US taxes, and defends it cuz "it's legal" - well, so is SNAP, and the few other programs still left...

rant over,

Happy Today all...

RetiredLibby

THIS is what I was looking for - from an article in Forbes (link below):  "Not all of those escaping income taxes have modest incomes, however.  In 2009, according to Internal Revenue Service studies, six of the 400 U.S. tax filers with the highest adjusted gross income (meaning AGI of at least $77 million) paid no U.S. income tax, while 19,551 U.S.  households with income above $200,000 owed no U.S. or foreign  income tax."

And here is the link to the article:  http://www.forbes.com/sites/janetnovack/2012/09/17/memo-to-mitt-romney-the-47-pay-taxes-too/

No commentary needed.  Mitt does just fine all on his own.

L

RetiredLibby

And one more - a good explanation of why this matters from Ezra Klein of the WaPo:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/09/17/romneys-theory-of-the-taker-class-and-why-it-matters/?hpid=z2

Important cutline:  "Part of the reason so many Americans don't pay federal income taxes is that Republicans have passed a series of very large tax cuts that wiped out the income-tax liability for many Americans. ... Some of those tax cuts for the poor were there to make the tax cuts for the rich more politically palatable. "Do you think we wanted to include a welfare payment to people who don't pay taxes and call it a tax cut?" A top Bush administration official once asked me. "No. But that's what we needed to do to get it done." " 

So, people who get government benefits, including Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid, Romney considers you a "taker."  Never mind you have been a "maker" and a "giver" all your life, and you earned those benefits. 

L

Enjoyful

I haven't read the Book of Mormon but I did read an expose written by an ex-Mormon. While I found the rituals and beliefs odd, I didn't note anything outright scary. My impression is that Mormons are a devout and insular group that takes care of their own. By "take care" I mean physically and spiritually - with pressure put on those who stray from the straight and narrow and shunning those who leave.



Having said THAT, my daughter had several Mormon friends in high school and they and their families were wonderful people. She went to several church dances and had a great time.



I shrug at Romney's Mormonism much like I do at most other religions. He's entitled (awful word!) to his beliefs like anyone else.



ShrugginScoot

1Athena1

Standing up on hind legs to also shrug shoulders. This atheist finds all religions scary, frankly. It all comes down to the devil you know....

208sandy

I agree with Scoot - I lived in Calgary for 15 years and there are many Mormons there - I worked with several over the years and they were some of the nicest people I worked with - they didn't invite us over for dinner or anything but have to say they were a pleasure to be around on a day to day basis.

Late DH was Unitarian and being active in the Democratic party I met many more and again, nothing scary but as I am not a big believer in organized religion (although brought up in the church) not really scared unless the person involved is a fanatic.

Anonymous

Agreeing with scoot - you can find those "fundmentalist" words in every "religion" - usually pulled out to SCARE - basically, I'm IMPRESSED with the way most seem to "take care of their own" -just wish the "circle" would be expanded...

but then, have always been at odds with "reality"

Thanks HL - good reading....and again, what Sandy says...

1Athena1

....and in line with what Sandy and Scoot say, I therefore think nothing in particular of a person of a specific religion. I think Mormonism is the least salient part of Romney, frankly. He does not possess the innate qualities that religions are generally intended to celebrate, and beyond empathy his chief weakness is a total, absolute, utter lack of statesmanship. The man wouldn't even dignify the office of village alderman at this point.

RetiredLibby

And another one.  There is a LOT of analysis out there about the 47% ... and for those who advocate destroying the social safety net, you should learn who you want to hurt before you do that:  the elderly, our troops, the unemployed, students, and people who don't make a living wage.  All of those people have undoubtedly paid into the tax system at one point -- yes, dammit, they ARE entitled to help.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/the-47-who-they-are-where-they-live-how-they-vote-and-why-they-matter/262506/

Important cutline from this article:  "The 47% aren't lucky ducks cheating the system. They're mostly poor  working families getting pilloried by the political party that wrote the rules they're following. If the 47% are the monster here, then Republicans helped play the role of Dr. Frankenstein. "Non-payers" have grown in the last 30 years because of marginal tax rate cuts and credits like the EITC passed under Republican presidents and continued by both parties in Congress."

River_Rat

Wow, busy thread this morning!  I'm off to read more about this 47% video.  I think it's good that this came out.  

I had a problem explaining to a conservative that quoted the "47% don't pay taxes" line to me that they pay taxes, just not income taxes and that this "they" included retirees, the disabled, college students, etc. and this person didn't believe those people were counted in the 47%.  

In other words my conservative friend thought that 47% of our population were lazy, unmotivated drains on the economy.  Well, that's what they're led to believe on Fox and by Rush, etc.  My hope is that as this gets press coverage people like my friend might actually encounter some information.  I think this has the potential to derail Romney's campaign...or maybe I just hope it does.

Anonymous

I think these words from Jonathan Chait's article are SO IMPORTANT

"Some pundits have likened Romney’s comments to Barack Obama’s 2008 monologue, also secretly recorded at a fund-raiser, about his difficulties with white working class voters in rural Pennsylvania. But the spirit of Obama’s remarks was precisely the opposite of Romney’s. While Obama couched his beliefs in condescending sociological analysis about how poor small town residents vote on the basis of guns and religion rather than economics, the thrust of Obama’s argument was that he believed his policies would help them, and to urge his supporters to make common cause with them:

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you'll find is, is that people of every background — there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you'll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I'd be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you're doing what you're doing.

Obama was aspiring to become president of all of America, even that part most hostile to him, in the belief that what they shared mattered more than what divided them. Romney genuinely seems to conceive of the lowest-earning half of the population as implacably hostile parasites."  Jonathan Chait, the New York Magazine

Seeking common ground, INCLUSION...heart, empathy, compassion, understanding....thank you President Obama.I hope more and more people will read those words IN CONTEXT, notjust the few words taken and sometimes used "against" the President, instead of showing all the qualities we respect and admire in his work.

River_Rat

Sunflowers, very true.  The two events aren't comparable at all, they're a direct contrast.

1Athena1

It just keeps getting bad. The video also contained comments Romney made about the Middle East, in which he basically said there was nothing one could do. So I suppose his four-year plan is to sit in the oval office with arms crossed:

In a new video posted by Mother Jones, a liberal magazine, Mr. Romney says the Middle East peace process is "likely to remain an unsolved problem."

Mr. Romney has sought to cast himself as a turnaround expert, a fixer who can fashion success from the wreckage of a failing company, Olympics, or economy. But the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he can be heard saying in the video posted to the Mother Jones Web site on Tuesday morning, is a case where "we sort of live with it, and we kick the ball down the field and hope that ultimately, somehow, something will happen and resolve it.

He later added,"I look at the Palestinians not wanting to see peace anyway, for political purposes, committed to the destruction and elimination of Israel, and these thorny issues "And I say, ‘There's just no way.' "

More here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/politics/in-leaked-video-romney-says-middle-east-peace-process-likely-to-remain-unsolved-problem.html?_r=1

ETA: Sorry about the harsh bold.

River_Rat

Athena, I just ran into that video too.  How in the world does this man imagine he could be president?

I just ran across an interesting piece on the man who had the fundraiser in the videos at his Florida home.  It seems he has a home in the Hamptons too and this is almost beyond belief:

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/nude_frolic_in_tycoon_pool_S8t8KXKG1IeGFSDtN6Xm9M

pupmom

Now that Romney has handed the President another term, I sure hope Obama can get some important things done. Maybe his landslide win will have coattails and sweep out some of the teabaggies.

RetiredLibby

Fingers crossed, Yorkiemom!

IllinoisLady

Oh those debates......there is so much material for them.  But I too think it is sad that we are reduced to the level of even being able to consider the 'other side' this election.  I had this rather wild thought last night....one of those things that springs un-bidden by me....wonder just which R. made sure that video became available. 

I am a part of that 47% but I do Mr. R still pay taxes and thanks to all those sweet Republican years we are still a working household here.  At age 73 and 67....we can't retire.  I am one of your lazy, shiftless, in need of handouts people.  And just as soon as I get home from work....I'm going to go find something that is free to me...if I'm not too tired.  Terrible rant and I should be ashamed of myself.  What utter disrespect.

Jackie

p.s.  I too have had many Mormon friends and classmates.  No complaints really....in fact, I would have to say that they displayed better behaviors over all them some.  Not my cup of tea though.