The Fungal Theory

Hindsfeet

Isn't antibiotic med's made from fungi?

Released: 01/19/2011 Antibiotic Slows Growth of Bladder, Breast Cancer Cells

Researchers at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine have discovered that nitroxoline, an antibiotic commonly used around the world to treat urinary tract infections, can slow or stop the growth of human breast and bladder cancer cells by blocking the formation of new blood vessels. The results, appearing in the Dec. 15 issue of the Journal of the National Cancer Institute, suggest that nitroxoline shows promise as a potential therapeutic agent.

thenewme

Moderators-could you move this thread to the alternative forum?  "The Fungal Theory" is very much an alternative theory unsupported by any scientific evidence or even consensus.  Thanks!

Hindsfeet

I post a study from John Hopkins about anti-fungal med's used to treat  prostrate cancer and some one says it's not scientific?

sas-schatzi

So , what's the story---------------------where is this thread idenditified--------------and is it going to be attacked by people that will not produce evidence based research to refute what is said.

Mods Please----------------------Abuse by these people is known-------------everything was fine on this thread until these "whatevers"-------"Cluck'ems " started trouble.

AND.................. I hate BUllIES and These Two ARE BULLIES...................

Cluck'em

LJ13-2

It is interesting, sas-schatzi, that you know nothing of me, but someone else makes some snide remark and *poof* you have an instant analysis of me AND are threatening to report me. And what reportable offense have I committed?

What I find so interesting is how that instant character analysis parallels the rapidity with which alternative med lovers adopt the latest scientifically unsupported theories. Poof. Someone says that toad feces cures cancer, and all of a sudden there is a new Thread-That-Will-Not-Die where everyone debates the best way to use toad feces. Toad feces with cottage cheese? Or toad feces with a dash of iodine?

As I have said before, after all is said and done, feces is just feces. 

LJ13-2

Impositive, did you just call me "ugly"? Twice, in one post.

Does that fall under the category of new rules about offensive? 'Cause I, for one, am offended at being called ugly.

Where is the new Report button? 

LJ13-2

Impositive, did you just call me "ugly"? Twice, in one post.

Does that fall under the category of new rules about offensive? 'Cause I, for one, am offended at being called ugly.

Where is the new Report button? 

Carola32

If people on this forum want to talk about alternative things, as small and unsupported they may be, let them! It's a discussion forum for pete's sake. Getting really tired about the bullying, let people be. It is so easy to hide behind an avatar and let your frustration out on people trying to find other ways, finding connections, have a holistic view, but of course we are confined to the alternative part on this forum...I have seen more than one thread get inactive because of some that don't have anything better to do than be rude and careless, it's getting poisonous. I really doubt their good intentions. I've even wanted to quit coming to this forum because of the negativity, but then got numerous supportive messages saying that there really ARE bullies on this forum with nothing better to do.

digger

Carola,

I always have to chuckle a little when the old "she's a bully" defense comes up.  It gets really old, you know?  Yep, and bullying certainly works both ways, as we've just seen with dear sweet, impositive's acidic comments as well as sas-sch's. Not sure how someone doesn't see that, but you're going to see what you want to see.   

Enjoyful

evebarry -

Logically, successful treatment of cancer with an antifungal does not mean that cancer is, or is caused by, a fungus.  The antifungal drug itraconazole works for cancer because of the following (emphasis mine):

"Identified as a potential anticancer drug after Hopkins scientists scoured a database of more than 3,000 FDA-approved drugs, itraconazole appears to block tumor blood vessel growth -- the only drug in its class to do so -- much like the anticancer drug bevacizumab (Avastin).  The antifungal also disrupts a key cancer-initiating biological pathway called Hedgehog.  Laboratory testing by Johns Hopkins scientist Jun Liu, Ph.D., has shown that human prostate tumors implanted in mice shrink when treated with itraconazole."

You can read more about it here:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/antifungal_drug_delays_need_for_chemo_in_advanced_prostate_cancer

Carola32

Yes, Digger, I agree it's quite boring, and a shame too for that matter. We are all adults, or atleast we should try to be :-D

More and more this forum reminds me of school: Someone says something that the majority don't agree with and she gets laughed at. Or if you don't go mainstream you're doomed in advance, that sort of thing you know. Of course acidic comments or responses are one's own responsibility, there's always the Christian 'turning the other cheek', but it happens that from out of nowhere, people make very nasty comments on things written (and often targeting alternative/complementary discussions), just because they don't agree, and that can really be bothersome, and very old. Then again, this is a discussion forum so maybe people here don't mind bickering, I've always been terrible at that..Maybe I'm just a super pacifist that don't understand anything about human relations...It just surprises me how people can be judging and so very sure of themselves when we are all in on this together. Oh well, what will this matter in 100 years?

My personal experience regarding candida: I had massive and repeated infections about two years prior to diagnosis (trush & cystitis). It didn't really matter what I tried, my gynecologist didn't understand it either. I would always get candida related infections. Today, I see the obvious connection between the infections and my immune system, or more lack there of, unfortunately caused by multiple reasons.

After my diagnosis in December last year, I started putting two and two together, realizing that an anti-candida diet goes 'hand in hand' with a more alkaline diet AND anti-cancer diet, with some exceptions (soy etc). I started to learn about how the body works, seeing a strong connection between 'good' vs. 'bad' diets, how we can help our bodies metabolize correctly, avoiding something so trivial as constipation (which build up even more toxins in our systems), about the acidic vs. the alkaline etc.  A glass of alcohol surely affects the body & mind, noone can say otherwise I think, so why shouldn't everything eaten or drunken make a difference?

I have completely changed my ways and it has made a huge difference. I chose to have chemo prior to lumpectomy and a partial node dissection (after a not so clean sentinel node), thought about it as cleansing my body to start a-new afterwards. It's not enough to pop a pill, as changing one's diet isn't enough when it comes to eradicate cancer (sadly) but both can do wonders. Popping pills for aches and infections was my speciality, and I felt like crap. All the antibiotics for instance...So I did research, talked to non-scientists who have another approach and found it suited me. It's not about saying 'I eat clean and healthy food so I'm safe'. No, I really experience the difference, I feel great even if my arm acts silly and I still have neuropathy in my hands, restless leg syndrome and my periods are still absent. I feel like I owe it to my body to research every tiny corner and not just solemnly accept drugs from the doctorgods and keep intoxicating my body with processed food and stress, without thinking.

Thanks for all the links and info posted on this thread. Even if some info is not scientifically supported, it allows me to think for myself and definitely outside the box. 

Hindsfeet

I am amazed or should I be amazed that although this thread or forum was moved to the alternative forum still has the naysayer followers. Isn't the alternative thread for alternative medicine or ideas. For those of us who choose to think outside the box and for ourselves don't we have the right to post our opinions? I thought that the mod's had cleaned up bco. I had hoped that those of us who wished to pursue this topic could without those who come here only to harass. I don't mind if someone honestly ask questions or replies in a curitious way like enjoyful did. She replied without putdowns.

Impositive and sas reacted to me being put down.

impositive

Network1,  It's good to have someone who is privy to these studies post here!  I have read reports to that effect as well...mycotoxins have been found in cancerous but not non-cancerous tissue.   To me, this just solidifies this theory but others here are much less ready to grasp such a notion. 

We have tossed around both "cancer is a fungus" and "cancer is caused by fungus (toxins)" here and haven't really been firmly planted either way.  We know that Aflatoxin is one the most carcinogenic substances known.  We also know that fungi can infect and live within its host causing diseases such as Coccidioidomycosis which can mimic cancer of the lungs upon x-ray examination.  If Coccidioidomycosis can cause these types of potentially fatal lesions, it doesn't seem far-fetched that other fungi could cause a similarly fatal disease (cancer).  I agree that saying "cancer may be due to fungal toxins" vs "cancer is fungus", is probably easier for someone to grasp, therefore seemingly more credible.  

Why aren't these studies (such as the one you mentioned) being picked up and expanded on by the mainstream?  If mycotoxins are found in cancerous tissue, are we tracing these toxins to their source, possibly that person's environment, diet, etc.?  Why isn't science looking at this?!! (all rhetorical)

impositive

BTW....LJ,

I was not calling you ugly.  I was simply relating to you how it makes me feel when you haven't been to the forum since 2010 and you suddenly appear out of nowhere with snide comments to Eve and myself.  They were in no way related to the conversation at hand.  How would one interpret those comments but as "trollish."  

impositive

Enjoyful and Eve, I wanted to add to the itraconazole discussion, if I may. 

As Enjoy pointed out, the article stated: "The antifungal also disrupts a key cancer-initiating biological pathway called Hedgehog."

Hedgehogs are proteins which are important in developemental signaling and here's what's interesting....they are shared by eukaryotes.  (Both human cells and fungal cells are eukaryotes).  The signaling is usually present in human embryotic cells but is silent in human adult cells. When we have cancer, those cells are switched on. No one knows why they do this except to say that our genes have been mutated. What causes this mutation?  Well, we know that mycotoxins can cause our genes to mutate (google aflatoxin and the P53 gene for an example.)  

So the article says that "the antifungal drug disrupts a key cancer-initiating biological pathway".  This "initiating" could be done by fungus since they have these same proteins.  It would explain why the signalling, usually only present in embryonic cells, suddenly become "turned on" again and also why an antifungal drug works....because it is killing the fungus that is causing these signals to be disrupted.

Also, Itrconazole inhibits angeogenesis. 

The opportunistic fungus Aspergillus fumigatus ( and others) is characterized by its angiotropism and propensity for angioinvasion.  So if the fungus can cause angeogenisis and itraconazole kills fungus...it stops the angieogenisis.

Enjoyful

Very interesting reading, impositive! 

While your discussion seems plausible, I'd still like to see a scientific study showing cause and effect.  But heck, if an antifungal destroys cancer, I'll take it!

E

luv_gardening

Well said E, that's my attitude too.  The docs haven't found the cure yet so they can hardly stop people from trying other things.  An extra set of minds working on the problem should be welcomed. 

Peace, Love, Co-operation. Let's work together for a cure.

thenewme

Thanks, Mods, for moving this thread to the appropriate forum, where like-minded people can continue to discuss scientifically unsupported ideas and theories and "think outside the box."

My personal preference is to rely on research, factual evidence, and credible sources.

sas-schatzi

This was a very cooperative non hurtful group with no divisiveness until the last two pages. With the first attack on Eve. then Impositive. Then a whole slew of you showed up. Science is making new discoveries every day. What may have been considered quackery at one time is now mainstream.  Carola your comment on this site and how it's been,  I have never seen you here before. LI same thing.  , Thenewme if a different approach to research is what you like, and what is here doesn't fit your pattern of researching, there is an obvious answer for that.

thenewme

SAS, I'm not sure what your problem is with me.  Surely you're not accusing me of "attacking Eve," are you?  I assure you I'm not interested in the insults, accusations, and name calling.  I'm also not interested in wasting any more of my time on this "Fungal Theory" thread.  Been there, done that. 

You say, "Thenewme if a different approach to research is what you like, and what is here doesn't fit your pattern of researching, there is an obvious answer for that."

That's precisely my point!  This thread WAS located in the Complementary section of BCO, and my suggestion to the moderators was that it fit more appropriately in the Alternative section, and apparently they agreed, so now it's in the Alternative section.  Really, what's so hard about that? 

Carola32

Sas,

This thread is very interesting, many threads on this forum are! I'm researching very extensively at the moment for different reasons, and I haven't contributed to this thread before as I haven't had anything to contribute with. Simple as that. No bad intentions or negativity from my part. 

ShelleyP

Thank you, this rings bells for me. I believe the link exists. In a perfect world I would not find myself having had to deal with cancer. For me, being informed empowers me. I have chosen to undergo some treatments and rejected others, my family led me to make choices I may not have otherwise. From the moment I was diagnosed I have used many homeopathic remedies which have helped alleviate symptoms that were present prior too and experienced afterwards. Is it faith that brings about such a good response for me, or does my body know a damn site more than I think I do. Either way for me taking them lights me up on the inside so yeeha.   

painterly

Thenewme:

 I found your last post insulting. Honestly, your comment "where like-minded people can continue to discuss scientifically unsupported ideas and theories and "think outside the box" and emphasised in quotation marks is very hurtful to people like me. For me personally, what is inside the box would have killed me on two occasions:

Firstly, the neupogen that is administered after chemo would have killed me if the onc. had not phoned me to stop the drug. (My body made too many white blood cells).

Secondly, the Arimidex et al would have eventually given me a heart attack due to the rapid heart rate that the drugs caused. I normally have good bp etc. and a clean ecg, and no heart problems but those drugs were not for me, according to my onc, who ordered them stopped after 6 months. He learned, this year, that 27% of women taking those drugs will go on to have serious heart problems, and he didn't want me to be one of them.

So you see, thenewme, some of us have no choice but to think outside the box because what is in the box is just too dangerous for us. 

thenewme

Painterly,

I'm sorry you hurt and insulted by my post, but honestly I can't imagine why you'd take that personally.  I'm sorry you had such a hard time with your treatments and hope you're doing well now. 

The description of the Alternative thread says, "Alternative medicine refers to treatments that are used INSTEAD of standard, evidence-based treatment."   Most of the ideas in this thread are contrary to standard, evidence-based treatment, so it belongs in the alternative forum. One of the biggest complaints from alternative-minded posters here, as you see above, is that they feel "attacked" and "bullied" by those of us who prefer evidence over conjecture.  The moderators implemented the alternative forum to give those posters a safe haven in which to discuss issues freely.  As far as I know, the new alternative forum is pretty much left in peace without interruption from "trolls" and "bullies" and "naysayers" like me, isn't it? Why wouldn't you want to continue discussion there?

As for the emphasis on "thinking outside the box," I put it in quotes simply to emphasize that it's a subjective concept and not an easily defined "box."   Alternative-minded people are generally the ones who use the term, so I think you're taking offense when none was offered.  Peace!

Hindsfeet

thenewme comment was a back handed put down to those who choose alternative medicine or choose to think outside the box. Inside the box...hmm..it was the doctors who ordered me to take premaritan, which I believe is what caused me to be dx with cancer in the first place. Science is constantly changing. I can't watch television without an advertisement from a lawyer for those who took drugs that caused harm or death. Science hasn't yet found a cure for cancer and until they find a way to erradicate cancer stem cells, the floor is open.  (edited in...what I am trying to say is science is also imperfect. What is scientific? That which is proven to work? Not all medicine or treatments are evidence base science, some ot if as we knows are merely trials.).  

No one on the fungal theory thread has said not to do 'conventional medicine." We're trying to understand the fungal theory, and candida overgrowth which contributes to a lot of diseases.

I'm learning a lot from impositive. It doesn't matter to me if this thread is on the alternative thread or holistic.

thats-life-

this thread does not claim to be an alternative cure for cancer. an anti fungal diet can be a healthy complimentary lifestyle option. this thread should not have been moved at the request of one poster, though i do not mind where it is either. i find it a very interesting and relevant discussion topic.

impositive

I agree ladies...if the mods moved us to the Alternative forum, who cares! If what we have as a result is that thenewme and others dont come here to pass out their insults, then I'm good with that. We can move on with intelligent discussions without having to respond to their contemptuous rudeness. 

Thenewme said..."The moderators implemented the alternative forum to give those posters a safe haven in which to discuss issues freely.  As far as I know, the new alternative forum is pretty much left in peace without interruption from "trolls" and "bullies" and "naysayers" like me, isn't it? "

As far as I can tell, since we were moved to the Alternative forums, you have posted 3 times, thenewme, why are you still here?  You are free to move on to your "personal preference" where they "rely on research, factual evidence, and credible sources."  You have nothing more to add to this thread. 

Enjoyful

Perhaps she keeps posting here because people keep addressing her here.  That's just my take on it.

I wish you all the best, and will be watching the anti-fungal trials with great interest. 

Take care,

E

luv_gardening

I think of myself more as a pioneer rather than alternative.  I've used the initial standard treatments and now I'm not convinced the Tamoxifen will keep a recurrence away.  In fact there is evidence that Tamoxifen can cause a more aggressive cancer for BC which doesn't express the protein E-cadherin which is true of ILC which I had.  So I need some back up in case Tamoxifen fails me. 

There were many pioneers in science who made serendipitous discoveries, and many early accepted medical treatments were awful and killed the patients or made them worse.  Blood letting, unhygenic conditions, too many to name but they were also pioneers and a necessary part of where we are now.  Now everyone is expected to toe the line and stick to the rules.  What if a real cure for humans doesn't work on mice yet gets knocked back for that very reason, before trials can prove it effective?   What if a real cure involves diet but no pharmaceutical company will fund a full trial as there is no money in it which is genuinely needed to keep their establishment viable and wages paid?  Who then will fund the full trials needed to make this cure mainstream and acceptable?  I'm very grateful for pharmaceutical companies which have played a major part in our current health knowledge and saved the lives of several of my loved ones, but there are gaps in the system and we pioneers are the ones willing to risk our lives and health to try out early ideas or old ideas that haven't been given a chance by our current system which is good but not perfect.  

Yay for us and keep up the research ladies, your work is greatly appreciated!  

impositive

BTW, we aren't discussing using alternative treatments necessarily.  Itraconazole is mainstream medicine, its just not standard protocol for cancer when maybe it should be in some cases. 

What we are discussing is the possible CAUSE of cancer because that is still a mystery after decades of research, from "factual based evidence" and "credible sources".  Let's ask those "experts".....

"Mr. Expert, what causes cancer?"  

    "Well IMP, we just don't know."

"Ms. Expert, how can we cure it?"

    "We don't  know, IMP, we haven't yet found a cure."

"Dr. Expert, how can I keep it from spreading?"   

    "We haven't yet figured that out, IMP"

"Dr. Expert, if we dont know the cause and we haven't found the cure and we can't keep it from spreading, what are we to do?"

    "We are still working on that, IMP...."

Our "experts" haven't figured it out.  We NEED new ideas... Someone to veer off the path our experts have been traveling down for decades, to think outside that box!....We should be demanding more, not defending the status quo where drugs are the only solution to those unanswered questions.