Alternative Medicine vs. Quackery

seaotter

konakat - go eat your cake and since you don't have a clue add ice cream.

konakat

Thanks seaotter, but I think at Stage IV and rampant lesions cottage cheese and flax seed isn't going to pull me back from the brink.  Do you?  My point is to give false hope to people that are "gonners" is terrible.  Preventative, early stage it may help.  But false hopes to "gonners" like me is inexcusable. BTW -- if you're ever Stage IV, tell me how the cottage cheese is working for ya!

Edit:  Forgot to ask, since I don't have a clue.  Is your post an example of the facetious and sarcastic remarks that you wish others wouldn't post?

covertanjou

Wow Seaotter!!  I cannot believe what you wrote!!!!  What is the point of such a statement??

Enjoyful

Seaotter - good grief!  Totally uncalled for.

mollyann

Bravo, Seaotter!

Your response was the perfect response to known troll who only comes here to mock.

Clearly, our troll is not familiar with the complex Budgwig flax/ cottage cheese protocol which is widely used around the world, especially in Germany, even by mainstream doctors.

The trolls always call their friends out! LOL.

Enjoyful

Regardless of whether the Bugwig flax/cottage cheese protocol is actually effective, the response was rude and callous. 

pip57

Konakat a troll???  

konakat

Actually I was questioning the validity of such things for Stage IV cancer.  You'd, for example, put your daughter on a cottage cheese and flax seed if she had Stage IV, lesions in her bones, liver, lungs?  Do you know what Stage IV is?  What it means?  Name calling and silly remarks is your response?  I did not question these protocols for earlier stage cancers, just as a "cure" for "gonners".

BTW -- I didn't call anyone out.

One more:  I'm not mocking.  I'm disgusted. 

konakat

I'm a troll?  I didn't know that.  Why do you say so?

otter

What's happening here is so strange. 

I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that Julia started this thread to help "non-alternative-minded visitors" understand how "alternative therapy" differs from "quackery".  She also said she wanted to show visitors that advocates of alternative therapy "seek facts and research"," just as their conventionally minded sisters do.  She even said she hoped we would "stick around" this forum and do some reading.

In a later post, Julia said she thought it was okay ("not rude") for visitors to ask for evidence in support of a particular alternative approach.  "It's only rude when they come to this forum specifically to be insulting, sarcastic, arrogant, cruel ... and clueless enough to think their doctor knows 100% of all medical knowledge in the world."

So far, the only posts I've seen on this thread that have been "insulting, sarcastic, arrogant, [or] cruel" have come from a few (a very few) of the regulars on the Alternatives forum.  And, at least on this thread, the only people who've acted as if they "know 100% of all medical knowledge" are those same few regulars.

What's that all about?

otter 

Member_of_the_Club

Konakat is an active and beloved participant of not just the stage IV section but other's as well.  She offers encouraging advice to women who are early stage and just scared.  Seaottter, you are clearly the one who doesn't have a clue.  This thread was specifically directed at everyone, not just women pursuing alternative treatments.  Konakat is the only woman with mets who has come here to share the very, very important perspective that it is just fine for early stagers to bypass mainstream medicine, but she and other women with mets are fighting for their lives and cottage cheese is not gonna do it.  Now if you were caring and compassionate you might offer up some knowledge of what complimentary practices might help with her quality of life or maybe augment her very necessary medical treatments.  But no, you had to through garbage in her -- let's just say it -- eventually dying face.  Shame on you.

konakat

I really like Crunchy/Julia and was intrigued by this thread -- perhaps to find some complementary stuff for the journey.  But I don't think this particular forum is for me at all.  I'll just go back to reading, trying to find a few gems in all the other stuff.  Thanks!

anondenet

 to our beloved Seaotter.

Anonymous

Big sigh.  Ladies - this is the ONLY area I ever see women accusing others of being a troll.  Seriously.  Such a sad and UN- NATURAL way to behave. 

I am of the opinions that Julia had good intentions with starting this thread.  The treatment of our sisters - especially Elizabeth - hard to believe and disgusting.  

thenewme

Oh.my.gosh. 

Seaotter, Mollyann, Anomdenet - wow. Just wow.  Un-freakin-believable.

pitanga

Seaotter, I guess you feel pretty strongly about the benefits of the cottage cheese and flax seed diet, since you were impelled to attack Elizabeth, whose thoughtfulness and compassion in posting responses to so many of our sisters, especially when they are in crisis, is an example to us all. Hopefully you have calmed down and are re-thinking your hastiness in firing off a post like that. I think an apology is in order.

Mollyann, I see you dont post much. I suspect you don´t read much either or you would not accuse Elizabeth, of all people, of being a troll. Take a good look at her posting history. If you find anything there that you think is remotely trollish, perhaps you could share that with us?

In the spirit of Julia´s original post, I wonder if anyone here could provide some references to studies of this diet? Not to claims about its value--anyone can make a claim-- but evidence that it its cure rate is higher than the placebo effect (placebos account for around 20% of the cures of most any disease) so that those of us who are not familiar with it can learn about its value in helping cancer patients, especially since flax seed is very high in phytoestrogens?

I´m curious, since my stage 4 tumor is ER+. I am under the distinct impression that women with ER+ tumors should avoid phytoestrogens.

Lisa 

RobinWendy

Some of you... ladies... on this site really showed your true colors on this one.  

What I "love" best about this is that all you nasty people are fortunate enough not to be Stage IV so you get to go on and on about why you think your way is best but since you are lucky enough to not to have measurable results about how your methods are working, you never have to be accountable for your claims.

I am so sorry that the lovely Flalady lost her battle with Stage IV...  how come no one is talking about how all her many efforts at controlling her advanced cancer with natural methods didn't help her.  Of course she tried everything to save her life (including mainstream meds).. who wouldn't... but she was never nasty or vicious to anyone.

Statistically, sometime in the future, some of you are bound to get a recurrence... believe me I do not wish it on ANYONE, not even the person on this site that I personally dislike the most... but if if that horrible thing happens... then what?  You will come onto the Stage IV forum scared to death asking for stories of hope? Or, will you just continue eating cottage cheese? 

You should all think about that for awhile.  What a vicious bunch of people you really are.  As I am sure you will all be thrilled about... I may read this forum again, but you can count on the fact that I will never post again.  

You have finally convinced me that this particular forum is not for anyone who is Stage IV or who has a truly open mind.  Yay for you... what a wonderful victory for you. Brava... brava

Robin 

Alpal

I frequently read on this thread looking for alternative solutions to some of the side effects of the meds I take. Last night's postings were so mean spirited and vicious that I will never come here again. I don't need this in my life.

konakat

I did receive a very kind PM from someone who is knowledgeable about alternative treatments and was recommended two books.  I will not let a few nasty women colour my perception of the "alternative ladies".  There are kind, intelligent women in this forum, unfortunately I ran into a handful that are not.  It is unfortunate that their vitriol may tarnish the reputation of the alternative treatment community.

Edit:  Replaced email with PM.

Bren-2007

Hi Elizabeth ... O.M.G. 

   I read this thread because Julia's post was interesting, and certainly not slamming conventional medicine.  She was sharing her feelings/beliefs about alternative treatments and lifestyles. My gosh .. she has had conventional treatment and uses natural means to combat her disease.  Julia has never slammed or been discourteous to anyone on this site.

   I am horrified by the notes that have been written to Elizabeth.  She is a friend to Julia .. and me, and many others on this site.  If Elizabeth is a troll ... then count me as one too.  I want to be just like her with her kindness, strength, love and support of others.

Bren

PS73

Ok, so I did come back and check out what was being said because I was curious - like watching elisabeth and joy with a side of anna nicole and so I made a liar out of myself - pls forgive.  My how this thread has gotten off track.  Julia will be blown away. Im so sorry if anybody took any offense to what I wrote   I am very much trying to not be as toxic as I was before, I have done a lot of my own personal research on stress and inflammation and breast cancer.  For obvious reasons I will not post this here but PM me if interested - I have no fix just some scientific observations.

Patty is actually a sweetheart and has been supportive to everyone, maybe just having a bad day (as we all do - lets not be overly dramatic about her statement which Im sure was not meant to be taken so far down the road).  I also would say that konakat has been supportive to me as well on other forums and actually has been interested in some of the alt options so lets give her a break too.  It literally hurt my eyes to read what was said about Flalady, she was TN and stage IV, she did try so many things, and she did stay alive for quite a while might I add.  Some stage IVs do lots of conventional therapy and stay alive just as long. Its so easy to write something when pissed off and hit submit.  I think thats why there is a preview button.

Whatever stage, we are all in this together - lets not lose sight of this.  We are - I know some won't agree but step back for a minute and note that we all have BC so we are - its simple.  None of us may ever come to terms with this - no matter how hard we beg for mercy we just have to keep moving forward and not get tangled up.

On a positive note, I have recently found clincial trials that are going on right now on two big alternatives - DIM and Iodine (iodine for thyroid cancer and dim for breast cancer with the brca 1 mutation).  ..so that is good, right?!  Maybe these fights are not of naught.  I don't want to go into anymore therapies all I want to say is lets just all take a deep breath and forgive one another and move on.  Ok, Im going to try and not post anymore unless someone says something mean to me because I am from Jersey afterall!!  but I will say that cancer has already taken lots from us, lets not give it our dignity too.

RobinWendy

I'm a liar, too.  Have to respond. I had nothing but respect and affection for Flalady.  My exact point is that she managed to try to take the best out of alternative and mainstream because she so valiantly tried to save her life and offer support to others.  Yet, despite using all means available to her, she lost her battle.  And, she never acted  in the way the women on this post acted.  I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I retain my dignity in responding the way I did and stand by my comments.

 I have tried to interact on this site for many years and have always tried to incorporate alternative methods into my mainstream treatments.  I went to a complementary oncologist for four years and took his recommendations to heart.  I gave up white flour, white sugar, white pasta, white potatoes... I take Vitamin D, I take fish oil, I take non-prescription anti-imflammatory agents to counteract the COX 1 and COX two elements of BC that promote tumor growth.  When my onc made public statements about AI's being overprescribed at times, I stepped up to talk about the truth of that statement. I practice true complementary methods, yet, almost always, I was met with derision and nastiness.

Don't you dare tell me I took Flalady's name in vain. I deserve an apology for that heartless comment.  I hold her in the highest regard and was devastated when she died.  But as a Stage IV warrior, I cannot pretend that people are not dying horrible deaths from this disease.  The simple fact is, breast cancer is currently incurable... whether you use the Budwig diet or the most toxic chemo.  That is the ultimate reality. My friends are dying every single day and it sickens me and in fact, will probably be me sooner or later. 

konakat

I think your post was misinterpreted Robin, you did not take Flalady's name in vain.  I miss Flalady tremendously -- what boundless knowledge she had!  Always patient and generous in helping others.  She set the bar very high with her kindness, fortitude, and knowledge.

PS73

hmm don't think so.

My point was that she quite possibly could have stayed alive just as long as someone who did conventional.  ..just like you have your friends that Im sure you lost to this disease, she was our friend and we don't like it when (I dont' like it) when her name is dropped as alternative didn't work.  It may have kept her alive just as long if not longer than mainstream medicine. 

konakat

Flalady was everyone's friend and a well-loved contributor on both the alternative and conventional forums.  She didn't "belong" to one or the other.  It is very sad that nothing worked for her for long; she was let down by both alternative and conventional treatment.

Member_of_the_Club

Hey, i thought FlaLady belonged to us on the lymphedema section!  She was a very helpful, frequent participant.  

 This is silly.  All Robin was saying was that one can be stage IV and use complementary treatments in addition to traditional, but if you are stage IV, there is no cure.  Not is this section of breastcancer.org and not in any other section.  Which means a little humility please. 

PS73

Hey, i thought FlaLady belonged to us on the lymphedema section!

- very cute

She was one of the first posts I read on alternative and really opened my eyes to complementing my therapy with alternative medicine.  She is kind of my hero - there are a lot of women on the boards that I just don't know what I would do if I lost them.  - they barely even know I exist.  ...well maybe now ;p

Im a bit snappy, so its possible i jumped to conclusions when i saw her name.

Isn't there a topic floating around about a woman stage IV who has been in remission for over a decade?  Theres hope, never lose your hope.

I just edited this whole message because my very understanding boss just told me she will work with me on the vacation thing.   *Im aware this makes very little sense to some of you reading this for the first time.

Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense”
Diagnosis: 4/23/2009, IDC, 2cm, Stage IIa, Grade 3, 0/1 nodes, ER+/PR-, HER2+

seaotter

OMG!!!!! Geesh calm down everyone. I read this:

konakat wrote:

Yah, I'll stock up on the flax seed and cottage cheese!  I'm sure it'll work!

This was konakat response to a very sweet post about the bugwig diet. So why isn't she getting the crap from all of you like I'm getting for my response to her????? Her comment was TOTALLY uncalled for. I was telling konakat what she says in her Elizabeth's mantra: when in doubt eat cake and when you haven't a clue eat cake. So eat it.

I don't care what you think of me or of what I do to stay healthy. I don't appreciate you belittling what we do. Why is it we get all the crap for what we do??????? Bring it on.

Patty

konakat

Yes I was flippant.  I could have worded my post better.  I agree.  However, what was annoying was:

1.  Referring to Stage IV / late stage as "gonners".  Haha -- that's really cute!

2.  Suggesting flax and cottage cheese as a cure for gonners (note:  it is in reference to gonners, not early stage or preventative treatments).  When you go through the crap I have to keep going (hopefully for 1 more year) hearing such rubbish can test my patience.

3.  I was not talking about you or someone in your situation.  I was speaking about my situation, stage IV.  Get it?

Member_of_the_Club

Not to mention, Seaotter, even if you thought Elizabeth's post was inappropriate (and remember it wasn't a reference to "what we do," it was a reference to what someone was saying she -- Elizabeth, aka "goner" --should do), she never made it personal.  You were the one to specifically attack her.

 I know that you don't get it.  What I don't get is why, if you are trying to demonstrate that your approach is worthwhile, why you have to be both defensive and nasty.  Its sure not persuading me.