I need a mentor

Granny71

Moody: Prayers are with you as you undergo surgery tomorrow.  May God's hand and mind guide the mind and hands of your surgeon's team ... in Jesus' name, Amen ... Love, Granny.

EWB

If it is not to us to judge others---why do I see and hear so much of that, esp in churches and other religious gatherings?  Why do so many "christians" not stop to help those in need (esp when they're "dirty", "addicts" "unemplyed" etc) those that I believe from Sunday School lessons, God and Jesus said we are to help? The ones that many seem to avoid are the ones that most need our help...I don't get that.

Moody- I pray for successful surgery and a quick & uneventful recovery. Elaine 

moodyk13

Thanks Granny for the prayers, I covet prayers.

Saint, I quote scripture to keep from offending people----LOL  I guess i am not that good at wording my opinion so that it doesnt come across "judgemental"  but if you want to know what I think then I will tell you, but I just want anyone reading to not get mad! 

Here I go:

God requires many things of His people.  One of those things is tithing.  I tithe every sunday from our home account and my business account.  If I am out one sunday, I always "double up" the next sunday.  Tithing is part of worship and a sign of obedience.  It is as old as the Old Testament. 

Second, God wants His people to worship together.  Fortunately I rarely miss church.  I think I have only missed like twice this year.  I even went and sang in the choir every sunday I was going through chemo.  I cried my eyes out the first sunday I had to wear my wig and I almost didnt sing in the choir because I was so embarrarsed, but I did and of course all the women were up there crying with me.  I belong to a fairly large church with 100+ choir members.  There is NOTHING like the love and support of my church family.

Also for the 3 months I was out of work my sunday school class and choir took turns bringing food to my house 3 days a week!  My sunday school class has 60+ active members.  Between the 100 choir and 60 sunday school, they had a waiting list of people wanting to bring us food!!!!!!  So I am a HUGE beleiver in church and being with Gods people. 

We had revival the first week of november and we had in ONE night 38 people get saved (that is what baptist call accepting Jesus as your Savior) so church is instrumental in bringing people to Jesus.  It is a place to grow with other beleivers and gives you the "booster shot" to shine your light the rest of the week in this dark world. 

We took up money for missions this past sunday with a goal of $8000.  We took up $22,000 in ONE night!  Missions are how we get God's word out to others who would otherwise never have heard about Him.  We send people everywhere from 10 miles up the road, to as far away as China.

One of the coolest ministries my church has is prison ministry.  About 5 men in the work release program have come to know Jesus since October and wild horses cant keep them away from church service!  It melts my heart to see these men who have done some pretty bad things, be so excited about being baptised!  And they are still coming and still worshipping!!!

Third, God wants us to come to the altar - now an altar can be anywhere, bed, bathroom, car, desk, but I find so much comfort in going to the altar in God's house.  Everytime I go to the altar, I will feel hands being laid on me, and when I am done and try to stand up, there will be 5 or more people there with me who came to pray over me.  Nothing like the power of hearing those prayers.  I wouldnt get that blessing in my home.--prayer yes, but to have them physically there is so comforting!

When I found out I had bc I went down and was annointed.  I have had such peace since then!

All of this and much, much more is why I am such a believer in church.  BUT you have to find the right church!  Any church that encourages you to grow spiritually and helps you develop your relationship with God is a great church, regardless of denomination.

This is my stance on church and just a few of the reasons why I go and why I would encourage everyone to go. 

Regarding people who are just "good" going to heaven requires a second post.

Hugs and kisses all around, especially to those who I make mad!!!!

moodyk13

Okay Saint, I am going for the gusto here, hold on to your french fries........

Jesus came to this earth for one reason and one reason only: to pay the ultimate price so that we have forgiveness of our sins.  There were many good people who lived in the old testament times that didnt believe in God.  Heck, all the children of Israel that were in the Exodus saw the Red Sea part and they still worshipped a cow!!!  God condemned them for it too.

God sent His Son so that ALL would believe in Him.  Jesus spent 33 years preaching and healing and loving and doing miracles and many good people still didnt believe.  He was crucified on the cross was dead and buried, and 3 days later He rose from the dead and spent 40 days walking on the earth and good people still didnt believe.  What does God have to do to get people to wake up and believe??????

I believe with all my heart that ALL who BELIEVE in Him will NOT parish, but will have eternal life.  Good people, bad people, all ages, races and yes- life styles -- and yes I do believe that my brother who is a homosexual will go to heaven and NOT because he is a good man, but because he believes in Jesus Christ.

I believe that anyone who rejects Jesus can be as good as possible, and they wont go to Heaven.  The bible tells us this MANY times, in fact it says He will "vomit them out of His mouth"  Being good doesnt give people a ticket to ride on the heaven mobile, Jesus does.

I've said it before, Im gonna say it again, If people can get heaven by just being good, then Jesus birth, ministry, death and resurrection was a waste of time.  God NEVER wastes His time! 

Come to Jesus, you have nothing to worry about.  For our loved ones that either refuse Jesus or just dont want to submit to Him--I pray for them and I know that it what God calls me to do.

saint

Thanx Moody. I totally agree with your post about church (that was never in question for me, but I think elaine is seeking answers on church) In fact our stories sound so similar we could be leading parallel lives! LOLOL

MY questioning involves the judging of others. I have to agree with elaine when she says that some churches seem to sit in judgement. There is more to the bible & Jesus' message than what we have debated so far. We have only scraped the surface! We are supposed to see the face of Jesus in EVERYONE! That is one of the hardest chores in my faith. But we are all loved equally by God--so it doesn't make sense to me that the "judgement" of who is going to heaven is valid....I don't mean that my Jewish friends are merely GOOD ppl. I mean they are examples of what we are all called to. They live holy lives----as Jesus' ppl were taught. We have had long, deep discussions about the WHY of being "good" (in lieu of saying Christian) I am fascinated by these kinds of exchanges. In one case I know more about her faith than she does, yet we never seem to tire of talking & sharing our views.

My dh was raised So Baptist--believe me--we have had LOTS of talks & philosophical/theologic debates.  Some teachings just fly in the face of common sense! I do NOT agree with the doctrine of eternal salvation. If after being baptized a person chooses to ignore the teachings & live a life of sin/crime then I argue that they never truly accepted the Truth! You can't say you're are saved one day just to cover you bases for the evil you want  to do the next!!!   HUGS! I know--I know---he & I have gone round & round on this one! LOL I don't expect to convert you! I just love to discuss these things cuz in debating we MAY come to a better understanding & ultimately I think that is what it is going to take to bring peace to everyone.

I was glad to see your comment about gays-----I have to wonder how you answer the other questions on that issue. For me the bottom line is what you wrote earlier: where there is love, there is God..........but I haven't gotten a lot further on that one & can't really take a stand that would win in a debate!!! I will defend my gay friends to the bitter end, but it is totally emotional for me & I have no argument to back my feelings except my gut says it is right.....

I guess for me it all boils down to What Is Important. I do NOT believe everything the church teaches, nor do I feel I must to be a member. When I disagree I generally don't feel it is anything that separates me from God & I just pray that the church, or I, change. Ex: If ppl want to fight over the creation story it doesn't get my back up. For me either stand on creation is still a marvelous God!!! Besides, if you read Genesis the bible contradicts itself on that very story! So neither issue will make or break my faith!

Hugs----prayers for your procedure tomorrow & thanx for entering into this exchange--I believe it is a good way to stretch our wings & hope it doesn't offend anyone else reading or open a huge can of worms cuz that is NOT the intention.

Be well & stay strong!    WOW--HUGE post! LOLOL 

Granny71

Thanks, Moody, for your powerful "testimony," -- thoughts about your beliefs, how and why they work so well for you, making you the strong woman of faith that you are.Your Bible knowledge is solid, and that's an important gift to us in in the current discussion, trying interpret what we read about Christianity and reconcile it with what we see among Christians -- e.g., judgmentalism, failure to help people in need, scorning others who don't "fit.". I think part of the reason is that they don't really understand what the Bible says Jesus expected from Christians -- people who promised to learn to be like Him. That word, Gethsemane, might fit in here. Moody's definition suggests that two types of people were there: Jesus, who had it all together (respected by people of many non-Christian religions, also) and the disciples, who seriously needed to get their act together. Linking Held's topic for this thread, those men in Gethsemane with Jesus needed a mentor to help them get on track for their true identities as disciples -- students and ministers of Jesus, whose lives as well as their teaching would reflect what they had learned in their mentoring relationship with Him. Back to the definition: "olive press." In Bible studies I have heard that the olive press may be considered as a symbol for place of pressure where useful oil (the good stuff in us) is separated from pulp (bad habits, memories, or behavior.) Gethsemane is also the place where Jesus struggled as he prepared himself to go to the Cross.  If a person only sees this side of Gethsemane it is an experience that only happened to Jesus. Without the other side of Gethsemane, getting worked on personally, some Christians, "don't get it,"  And if we don't get it, we act ugly toward each other. Shift: Well, sisters, I'm back in Gethsemane, but it's  not in seclusion, as I thought. It's right here with you, my mentors and my sisters. I pray that Moody's strong faith will help her overcome the assault of pain she anticipated from past experience, and look forward to her return to active duty -- along with Held, keeping us on our toes and making us think and struggle. Love, Granny.

faithandfifty

my dear 'mentor-members'

i just don't know where to begin. i think i'm something of an odd-duck to the ongoing discussion here..... getting 'odder' all the time, but let me backtrack, way back.

can't remember if i told you here, that my dad was a Lutheran pastor?? we were ALWAYS at church. i remember my first public faith-disagreement with him. it didn't go well. i was in catecism class and dad was the teacher.... the lesson was regarding baptism.

according to dad, the official Lutheran position was that if a baby was not "officially" baptised and died shortly after birth, they would not be going to heaven.

i couldn't fathom such a concept. i publically disagreed that our Heavenly Father would take that view of a newborn. my opinion was not welcomed. according to dad that was a 'fact.'

it was at that point, probably about age 12, that i made my first official parting-of-ways with official religion.

even tho i continued to worship in the Lutheran church for another 20+ years, it was at that point that i began to quilt together my own feelings of spirituality. i knew at that point that i believed in a Creator of brilliant strokes of genius, who was also FULL of GRACE. i think i knew on that afternoon that i'd be leaving all decisions of who is going to heaven in the very capable hands of our Creator and that i would never again be concerned about it.

i believe there is a wonderful-after-life-ahead-heaven that awaits us and it is beyond my capability and my interest to be involved in considering who will be there for the celebration.

my most difficult parable to understand was the one about the vineyard workers being paid the same, tho some toiled all day in the hot sun and others only an hour. again, beyond my human understanding, best left to God to sort out.

since that fateful discussion on baptism, i realize i have been assembling my own patchwork conglomeration of ideas regarding faith, religion and spirituality. i don't see them as competing, but as complimentary.

i can't possibly fathom a Creator who would single out after-life for a select few. i believe that One who makes a hummingbird and a hippo will also rejoice in the children round the globe, made in the Heavenly Image, worshipping in the traditions of their cultures. again, this doesn't concern me in the slightest. i give that over to our Universal Father.

i am reading a book right now that absolutely fascinates me and the author is sharing her experience of transcendence and spirituality having lived for several months in an Ashram. i find myself, highlighter-in-hand underlining like crazy. nodding in affirmation. agreeing.

last night as i sat in the airport reading this book (Eat, Pray, Love), i glanced up to see a striking Native American man walk toward me and sit down. he told me how he was drawn to me and that we had much to give one another. he was never "scheduled" to be in Charlotte at all, but got 'sent' there (by virtue of a passenger's heart attack on his earlier flight.) he had genuine conviction that we were to meet. in our 20 minute interaction he shared much about his faith, his belief system and how complimentary our work is.

i kept pinching myself. it would be impossible to describe the calm serenity that i felt in his presence.

it is as tho he walked up to me, by stepping out of the book's pages and to continue the conversation i was having with the book's author, in my head, tho i think it's a safe bet that he is not a disciple of the guru from India.

i'm sure this is jumbled up at best and probably even indecipherable.

i believe it's a good thing for us to be having this conversation...... i just wanted you to know that i am getting LESS and LESS 'traditional' in my understandings, by the day. i continue to worship in the Methodist tradition, because i am moved by the singing and the music, our preacher and the service, but i don't think that a traditional-church-view is the only route to Peace.

without it seeming like blasphemy (how do you spell that?) i think that our Creator could send his own son in the form of Jesus, in the same manner as His sending his son Buddah, the Four Corners, Muhamed and scores of others, that i'm just too uninformed to even be aware of..... and that we are all encouraged to learn from these learned ones who've walked among us.

well, i'd imagine that i've upset more than a few with this quilt of mine. just want you to know that i enjoy the conversation.......

hugs around the thread. edited to add that i know i have much to learn. i'm grateful for the thinking that this conversation has generated and helped me to articulate along the route to understanding.

Held

I don't know where to begin either Faith, other than to say it is good to hear from you again.    I too remember being upset and confused by the thought of a baby going to hell simply because it died before it could be baptized.  It really sounds worse thinking about it as an adult. 

I have to admit much of the tone of the latest part of this conversation is distressing me.  I love that we can share our thoughts and views and SUPPORT each other, but I definately feel some judgement to some of these responses.  Feeling judged is one of the reasons I left one church.

saint

Hugs Held! The written word can be easily misunderstood. Please believe that I do NOT judge here, nor do I feel judgement from others.

I already know that I basically agree with F&F --- when we met in Chicago we sat up late into the nite talking about our childhood faith lives & our church teachings that we each took offense to! We were pretty amused & astounded at our similar perceptions.

I was raised in a strict church family & have attended numerous other churches with friends & studied a bit about various faiths. I understand the perils this kind of discussion can have, but I also am a child of the 70's so I boldly go there! I am sensitive to the discomfort these exchanges can elicit, but I hope we can actually do this without offending anyone. I don't feel a NEED to pursue this, so if it makes you too uncomfortable I will refrain from posting my opinions here---not a problem in the least! HUGS

We are all children of God.....be well & stay strong 

badboob67

I think some of what's been posted recently illustrates the importance of developing a PERSONAL relationship with God. Yes, he does want us to "fellowship" with other Christians as well as to "witness" to non Christians......but mostly he wants us to know Him as He knows us. If we are able to cultivate that relationship, some of these issues that are man-made legality and religiousity will not confound us because we have the TRUTH straight from the source. God wrote it all down for us in the Bible.  God does speak to us; we need only to learn how to listen.

Too many times, the varous religions and religious leaders muddy the waters by injecting man's ideas and rules. Here's what I do if I am bothered by an idea that someone else (pastor, friend, tv personality...whoever it is trying to influence me). First, if I find myself nodding or thinking, "Aha!", then I have a pretty good idea what I've heard squares up with what God would want me to know. I still check, though, to make sure it's not human logic I'm "Aha-ing" about.  How?  I talk to the Lord, check his Word, or both.

Next, if something I here makes me think, "Uh-oh!" or "Huh?"...again, I go to the source for confirmation or rejection.  

Lastly, if  I hear something that makes me think, "Oh boy...that CAN'T be right!" I really pray on it a lot and read on it a lot.  Sometimes the "Oh Boy" is hitting me that way because I am being convicted by the holy spirit about an area in which I am disobedient or ignorant. Other times, the "Oh boy!" is a danger sign that someone is misleading me--intentionally or not.

God does love the Church.  Jesus' relationship with the Church is likened to that of a husband and wife.  Now, my feeling and belief is that the "Church" that is being referred to in the Bible (when it's not being specifically identified as a particular church) is the group of us who love the Lord and have accepted the awesome gift of salvation. I don't feel like "Church" in this sense has anything to do with 4 walls or a list of rules that a certain group of people (well meaning, I'm sure) got together and slapped on a label. 

Finally, there are good and bad churches of any denomination. I am so fortunate that I have a wonderful church family and we have been blessed with truly inspired and annointed pastors. Still, my husband's cousin found that our church wasn't for her but found another that feels just right.  Like Goldilocks, sometimes we have to try out a few things to find the one that is just right. In my case, God put me together with a dear lady who invited me to visit her church. I was her kids' soccer coach. Funny how doing something that is helpful to others brings blessings in the most unexpected ways, isn't it? I can tell you that meeting that sweet lady and her family is one of the most wonderful things that has ever happened to me!!

Ladies, I'm still needing prayer about our housing situation and today I received more troubling news.  DH will be laid off next week. They are suggesting it might be temporary, but I'm sure you all can understand how hard it is not to worry.  I haven't told dh, but I AM glad that I'll have him home throughout the holidays! He works so hard and such long hours that we don't get to spend much time together.  It's like years ago when I prayed for dh's job situation to get better.  I was surprised when he came home and told me he got fired ( and felt sort of responsible for it because I'd been praying so hard!) The thing is, even though that was very difficult and very hard on him mentally...the ultimate result was a better situation for him and the whole family.  You can't make a diamond without applying lots of pressure--and that's what God does sometimes.  Sometimes, the things we go through are allowed by God so we can benefit by something happening that we couldn't even have imagined.  HE is the light at the end of the tunnel...the relief to our suffering...the hope for our futures. He is truly an awesome God and I praise and thank him so much for blessing me so richly and abundantly. 

(((HUGS))), prayers, and love to you all!

Diane

saint

Diane--AMEN! 

Prayers for you & dh - strength for the journey & courage in times of doubt. HUGS

Held

Saint, please, please, please do NOT go away!!!  I welcome and value your words of wisdom every time I read them! 

I have been tossing and turning to try to figure out what it was about these last few posts that were really rubbing me the wrong way.

I am not sure judged is the right word.  Maybe "preached AT" vs "taught"??/

I am sorry this may not make sense.  I have been having trouble sleeping again..... 

faithandfifty

Trouble sleeping? Count me in. Thought I'd get up and start the day.

Glad to see that the thread didn't go up in flames from my lengthy post.

((((((((((((((((((((((Diane))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Treasure the 20/20 hindsight vision that you have over previous bumps in the road (and train wrecks too) and apply that same sense of trust into all of the unknowns hovering on the horizon.

My favorite verse from the Bible:

"We know that for those who love Him, for those called in agreement with his purpose, God makes all things work together for good."

Our fellowship and spiritual growth here, is but one example of how ALL things (even BC) can work together for good..... we wouldn't have met without this common denominator.

Held, I too am more appreciative of a teaching style here. As my dad always said: "You catch more bees with honey."

Everybody have a great day. Praying for all here: strength and courage.

moodyk13

Held, I hope that my posts are not what is causing you so much stress, as that is not my intent.  I was only sharing my own personal opinion and experience.  But I would never want to cuase you uneasiness or stress so feel free to invite me to go away.  I promise I won't get mad.

One thing I do want to comment on is baptism.  No where in the Bible does it say that you have to be baptised to go to heaven.  Baptism is merely a public profession of faith, it is not a ticket to the big house.

And as far as some people "getting saved" then living evil lives- if they were truly saved they wouldnt lead evil lives.  Now that is NOT to say they or me never sin, cause we are all sinners, but if I am truly saved, I am going to do my very best to live by God's word and I always know I am forgiven-cause being saved doesnt exempt me from sinning.

What I tell people is "thank God I serve a forgiving God!"

The other thing I try not to do is judge people on how they live, but when I am asked, I wont water down my faith.  I walk a tight rope all the time with two things:  faith and fitness.  I own a gym, so some people automatically assume I "judge" "fat" people.  Totally opposite, I want people who are over weight to come see me, thin people really dont need me!  And If someone is happy with their weight, who am I to tell them they are wrong?  Most people in my family are over weight, some extremely overweight, I still feed them!  LOL

Anyway, I am just very passionate about Jesus, but I don't judge those who have diff beliefs.  I do like giving my opinion when questions are asked, but people's individual relationship with God is their business. 

Hugs and kisses to all and pray everyone is having a good week.  I am looking forward to Christmas and I hope all here will have fun and safe holidays!

saint

Hugs all!

I don't think any of us wants or needs to go away. Held--you couldn't MAKE me go away!! LOL I  will simply agree to pull back from this sharing if it makes ppl too uncomfortable!  I think Moody & I are the culprits here & I think we're both pretty tough girls & strong in our own beliefs! I'm OK with it if everyone else is! I always say when it comes to religion or politics we need to agree to disagree! This is truly a FRIENDLY discussion & we all can learn/teach by continuing with it IF we are all OK with this......I won't go away--just tighten my muzzle!.......besides-I really DO want to know other ppl's answers - it often adjusts my thinking........

And that brings me to my next response. Moody--you state with conviction & I love that. I want to ask if the bible is your only source for the Truth. In MANY main stream churches it is believed that baptism is essential to being one in the body of Christ. I LOVE that you fly in the face of that, but how can you be SURE that they are wrong? Is there no validity to long held traditions, dogma & doctrines?? Or is the bible the only source??

Be well & stay strong 

Anonymous

Moody, girl, you KNOW I love you ...... but gotta say this ... God does not require tithing anymore.  That was part of the Law, part of the Old Testament ... I prefer to call it the Hebrew Scriptures rather than "old" .. old seems to imply that its of no value ... anyway, I digress ..

At no time were first century Christians commanded to pay tithes. The primary purpose of the tithing arrangement under the Law had been to support Israel's temple and priesthood; consequently the obligation to pay tithees would cease when that Mosaic law covenant came to an end as fulfilled thru Christ's death on the cross.  It's true that the priests continued on in service to the Temple until the year 70 when Romans sacked Jerusalem, but the Christians no longer paid into the Jewish sytem of things.  

As Christians, they were encouraged to give from their heart .. to give from their heart because God loves a  cheerful giver.  Remember the widow who gave her last penny?  2Cor 8:12; 9:7 talk about the cheerful giver and not out of compulsion ... 

We must give ... and be cheerful about it ..... but the amount is not compulsory.  

Anonymous

Just wanted to add ... its easy to remember that we are not under the dietary restrictions, the strict Sabbath laws, the cleanliness laws, the animal sacrifices ....... we also aren't under the laws of the tithing arrangement.... ALL THE LAWS were pointing the way to the better way .. living under Christ. Christianity is the fulfillment of the Law.

The bible says the law ... that means all of them .. the law was nailed to the cross ... Col 2:14.

badboob67

OOOHHHHHHH...the dietary restrictions!  Thank goodness we are not expected to adhere to those! We did a study in Sunday School about some of the restrictions a few years ago. It is so apparent to me that all of the "rules" God laid out were to keep His people from developing food-borne illnesses or other problems...just like any good parent, he was laying down the law for his children's own good! I wish I had the inner strength to adhere to the food laws; I am sure I would feel more healthy if not BE more healthy!

The baptism question is one that has confused me a bit. In the Baptist faith--ironically--it is stressed that baptism (by water) is NOT a requirement. BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, on the other hand, is a natural consequence of salvation.  I know that I have read the scriptures on this, but am drawing a blank now.  

I was raised Methodist. I was baptised ("sprinkled" is what the Baptist church calls it because I was not fully immersed--I used to find that very insulting!) when I was about 3 months old. Having been to a few Methodist baptisms, I think it is a GOOD thing even if it is not necessarily scriptural. Baptism of infants is an outward and public commitment by the child's parents and church family to support and encourage the child in faith as he/she grows and matures. When I was about 12 years old, I went through "confirmation" classes with the Methodist church. Interestingly, the classes focused mostly on the history and structure of the church rather than biblical subjects. When our class was presented to the congregation, we were offered the opportunity to be re-baptized. In the Methodist church, the early teen years are generally assumed to be the "age of accountability"--that time wherein the commitment made by one's parents sort of "expires". Still, I was never told that if I did not choose to be baptized that my initial baptism wouldn't be "valid".  All of this has to do with one particular denomination's "legalism". Legalism doesn't necessarily mean that a practice is not somehow based in scripture, but often is more of a man-made than a God-ordained practice.

When I started attending a Baptist church as an adult, I would often leave with my feathers ruffled...the preacher seemed to be picking on me with frequent references to "sprinkling" baptism and how little Bible teaching the faith of my childhood provided. He's a dear man, but of the old fire and brimstone, Southern Baptist tradition. There were a couple of times when we had infants "dedicated" in front of the congregation. The ritual was strikingly similar to a Methodist baptism, save for the absence of water. Also, rather than following along with a prewritten "script" as is done in the Methodist faith, the preacher spoke more spontaneously.  To me, the infant baptism in the Methodist faith and the dedication in the Baptist faith are basically the same thing. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT AN UNBAPTISED CHILD IS DOOMED TO HELL. 

In the Bible--again, I am without specific reference here but will look it up if anybody would like me to--God does not hold those who have never heard of Jesus nor those who have not achieved a certain age to the same standard as those who have matured and heard the Word. It only makes sense that a loving God would not have some horrible "loophole" in His law that would punish those who have not had a chance to make the choice to follow Him with eternal torment and damnation. He also wants that decision to truly BE a choice. 

In some faiths, there is a ritual of post-humous baptism. That one doesn't make sense to me at all. Once we have passed from this life into the next, our fate has been sealed. The faiths that use this practice, to me, seem to be placing much more emphasis on RITUAL and TRADITION than on the teachings that are in the Bible. The Bible DOESN'T teach that baptism is the way to God and heaven--it teaches that Jesus is the way to heaven and no man comes to the father but by Him. Baptism is a public ritual that allows us to declare what is in our hearts to others; it is a "picture" of the spiritual cleansing that we have already undergone. When John the baptist baptises Jesus, the Bible talks about the Holy Spirit descending from the heavens like a dove. I believe that is to help us understand that it is the spiritual aspect of baptism is more important than the ritual.

Wow...Every time I post on this thread, I seem to write a novel!  I guess that what it comes down to is what I keep repeating:  it isn't about man's rules, laws, and traditions...it's all about God's! The only way to know what God expects of us is to develop that personal relationship with Him and read His word. And sometimes, he brings believers together to help support one another and help them understand his word. 

(((HUGS)))
Diane

moodyk13

Saint LOL I do speak with conviction and it does tend to be a bit strong sometimes....oops...but I think you have me pegged exactly right.  As fas as where I get my truth.....Yep the Bible is the only place I look for the truth.  I love listening to others preaching and teachings, I love reading here others opinions.  As I have said before, I love hearing how God speaks to others, since He speaks to each one of us individually.  But if I am looking for truth, I go to God's word, and I wont except any contradictions.  That is what works for me, it is not to say others are wrong, I just choose to believe that the Bible is God breathed and is my final authority.  I am not gonna tell anybody else they are wrong, please understand that, it is MY choice to beleive the Bible 100%.

Rock-you know you are my main gal too!  You are such an inspiration, so keep on inspiring.  I may have said or implied that tithing was required, but I didnt mean that you HAVE to tithe.  And certainly not required for salvation!  I am still too "brain fried" from anesthesia to go back a read what I wrote, but I will say that if I said that you have to tithe, then I was wrong. 

Here is where I stand regarding tithing (again MY opinion, NOT "Law") I beleive as a christian I am called to tithe.  I love tithing and I see all the good things God does with this money.  The thing that cracks me up is how people are so offended by the offering plate.  This is what I tell people who are "turned off" by giving to the church: 1st- If people dont give, how is the church suppose to pay for electricity, water, land, buildings, salaries for employees, cups, plates, napkins, chairs, cleaning, bulletins,...........on and on..........  The "church fairy" does not flutter down every week with a check to take care of this stuff.  I here people complaining that their church isnt growing and those same people never give money. 

Then people say, "well you dont know where the money is going.....".  Guess what?  Every church is "not for profit" organization and is required by law to supply at any time "balance and budget" records.  My church hands them out at conference every January, and anyone can go by the office and pick one up all through the year.  So if you question where the money is going (and I think we should know) then I urge you to call your chuch office and request these records.

I hope this clears up anything I said or implied incorrectly.

The BEST thing about this thread is there are so many believers here, I know I will be held accountable and I am GLAD!!! 

moodyk13

"Clean" and "Unclean":

According to the Bible, Jesus death on the cross also cleansed the once "unclean" animals.  Acts 10:9 - 15 tells us this specifically.  So as Rock said, there are no restrictions on food.  Particularly meats.

HOWEVER, if my DH wants me to eat something I consider "gross", I just tell him it would go against God's word.  He doesnt know about Acts 10:9 - 15, and until he does, I'm sticking to my excuse!  LOL (frog legs, pigs feet, and rattle snake, incase you were wondering)

Held

Ok, I have soooooo much to say about these latest posts, but right now all I can manage is GROSS!!!!!!!!!!!!  I was eating my dinner when I read your post Moody - bleck!  LOL!!  I am with you - better to keep the dh in the dark!

moodyk13

Badboob, I too was raised Methodist.  My father was a methodist minister for 25 years.  I joined the baptist church when I was 30.  The methodist call it "Christening" when parents present their child to the church before the age of accountability and baptist call is "dedicating".  It is exactly the same except methodist sprinkle the child with water and baptist do not.  The most important thing is that the parents are saying before God and the church that they will do everything possible to raise that child to know Jesus (short version) and they are asking the people of the church to help them (summing it up)

No one is doomed to hell over baptism.  Baptism is merely a "symbolic" gesture that John the Baptist began.  Before the crucifixtion it was a public profession of living "righteously", after the crucifixition, it was symbolic of Christ rising from the dead "raised to walk in the newness of life" Romans 6:4  

As far as children or those who have yet to hear the goodnews of Jesus, here is what one of my favorite websites says:

"Each person, infant or adult, stands guilty before God; each person has offended the holiness of God. We can confident about the fact that God ALWAYS does what is right.  Knowing the love and grace of God, God applying Christ's death to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His character. It is our position that God applies Christ's payment for sin to young children and those who are mentally handicapped, since they were not mentally capable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior. Of this we are certain, that God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever He does, it is ALWAYS right and good."

The scripture backs this in Matt. 18:10 where Chirsts tells us that children have guardian angels that report directly to God.

Matt 18:10 "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven."
Matt 18:11 "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."

So, I personally refrain from trying to over analyze or "pick apart" what the scripture says, and I rest confidently knowing that our God is fair, loving, and showing mercy to all, He would not let those who have not heard, or children, or handicapped, etc., slip through the hole.

And I "ditto" your last paragraph Diane! 

saint

Well........now is when we may cross into unparallel territories---baptism in many churhes is a sacrament.....many traditions are plucked from the bible, yet are not directed by it.....interesting differences.

Excuse the term-but as devil's advocate I will make further observations: 

The bible was not handed down from heaven as a whole piece===written by divinely inspired men, but NOT written By God, ...so it could be argued that the bible is Man's word..in which case, like religion--man can not trump God.....as previously stated-the bible orginated in archaic languages. A dead language is difficult to translate at best--then it is translated from another language into English, then further rewritten in various Versions......language scholars argue ad nauseum that it is difficult to blindly trust each WORD......tho Divinely inspired Good book it is, it becomes further confusing/interesting when you study versions & take in the interpretations all within the same language.......without even considering the first one or two translations! Language is fascinating....

Observations please! 

Are we feeling like old Hebrews debating scripture! LOL Be well & stay strong 

moodyk13

Well this is just gonna be one of those times where we can agree to disagree and go on loving and supporting each other.  I do believe the Bible is 100% of God as man is incapable of being so complete and precise over 5000+ years.  So many things in the bible as far back as the flood has been scientifically proven to be true and unchanging.  The crossing at the Red Sea has been found, as has Noah's Ark, Sodom & Gomorrah, Mt Sinai, The Twelve Elms, Camp sites from Israel place in the wilderness, Solomon's temple, 897 scrolls that were 99.5% accurate to the King James Bible we have today, and in three languages where the people in the middle east who are fluent in Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic translated the scrolls, as well as Golgatha, Gethsemane, Jesus tomb, The Cave of Macpelah, The Shroud Jesus was buried In and on and on.  Man would mess this up, only God could see to it that His word is His word and is it accurate.  Besides, I lose absolutley nothing believing the bible is God breathed, but I shutter to think what I could lose if I dont beleive...

But I have always believed the Bible is God's word, printed by man even before man began to discover things on earth are in the Bible. I dont need proof to believe, but is fascinating seeing for real what was written about thousands of years ago.

And yes, I do feel Old!  I had surgey wednesday and went to the mall today!!!!  I know, I know, NOT smart!  But Christmas just "ain't" gonna wait on me to get stronger so a girls gotta do, what a girls gotta do!  LOL (((((((((HUGS)))))))))

saint

HUGS Moody---first===this is just debate for me--I do NOT necessarily defend a persoanl belief here so much as I want the diversity of answers---but that said--what about things in the bible like:

Not touching a woman who is unclean or not sitting ANYWHERE she has sat while bleeding????

What about men not shaving??? Women not cutting their hair? Are YOU married & if so-are you his property? Just like livestock?

I KNOW in my gut that there are things in the bible we do NOT adhere to & how is THAT explained? BTW--the shroud of Turin has NOT been proven to be authentic (tho that is not at issue on the bible debate) 

HUGS!! I would just love to meet you--and everyone here! 

moodyk13

Hey girlfriend, you are not offending me, I enjoy these debates as I always learn something and I believe these things-because there is no bad intent behind them-draw us closer to God.

I have read the Bible all the way through and I dont remembering anything in it about shaving or not cutting hair------not to say it isnt there, and I am going to research the scriptures to see if I can find it (drawing me closer to God, so all this is good!)

I do know that God does say not to touch a woman during her "unclean" times.  And frankly, I dont WANT to be touched, in fact, I dont want to be talked to or looked at either.....LOL, but remember the woman in the New Testament who had been on her "period" for 12 years came from behind and touched Jesus?  He healed her (Matt 9:20-22)

Jesus death on the cross cleansed all that had been previously "unclean"  this is in Acts 10:14-15 and Romans 14:14-23.

OOh, the "property" one, that is a good one!  God NEVER called for a husband to treat his wife like livestock, ever, never.  Husbands are not slave owners of their wives nor does God command wives to be maids or slaves to their husbands, never, ever, ever. 

What God says (Ephesians 5:22 - 31) is that wives are to submit to their husbands and the husband is the head of the household.  Then He says that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church and as men love themselves they are to love their wives. Husbands are too nourish and cherish their wives.  They are also to be willing to lay down their lives for their wives.  Now I dont know about anyone else, but I think if all husbands heeded the call God gives here, women would submit to them happily.

But it is the word "submit" that tears women up the most so here is food for thought: just as we are to submit to the authority of Jesus, or our parents, or our boss.  My hubby makes the $$ in our household, but he doesnt make the best decisions.  I am the "leader" of the family, but my hubby is the "head"  - if he were to make the right decisions, I wouldnt have to lead so much!  LOL  But at the end of the day, if there is a really important decision to be made and he feels strong in his decision, I absolutely go in agreement with him.  Now of course not if it were something bad or harmful.......just important.

I have his last name (my choosing- and I hated my maiden name LOL) but I have my own identity, my own "thing".  He has his own identity, but together we are one.

Which brings me to the last part of this passage and to me the most important:  Eph 5:33 "Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his own wife even as himself; and the wife see that she respects her husband."  I dont see anything wrong with this.  In fact, it is a great idea.

Yeah, you are right, there are many things I don't adhere to that the Bible so clearly tells me to.  Wooo child, that is probably an understatement!   That is why I am so glad I serve a forgiving God!!!!  LOL 

I know the controversay about the shroud, but as my preacher's wife told me once, if something brings you closer to Christ Jesus then no harm believing it.  In fact, God calls on us to trust Him through our faith and not things seen or heard or proven.  When I look at the Shoud, I just feel so overwhelmed with love for my Savior, and that is the most important thing for me.  If it draws you away or does not bring you closer, then you probably shouldn't beleive it is real and no harm in that either.

No one will probably ever be able to prove or disprove the shroud and I wouldn't even try, but when I look at it, it makes me feel closer to Christ, and that is why I choose to believe it is authentic.  No harm done in that and I wouldnt "condemn" someone for saying it was fake either.

I think you and I together could start revival!  It would be cool to meet sometime.  You bring me closer to God with every one of your posts, so they MUST BE GOOD!!!!  LOL  

faithandfifty

Any of you who are willing......

We've just lost our dear sister, JOY, who I've known for many months, as she often posted for Norm. There is a seperate thread under this forum. "jPrayers for Joy" or something to that effect. Her daughter Kelley just put up the announcement of Joy's passing.

I know that it would be a kindness to Kelley and the rest of the family, if some of you wonderful faith-filled folks would offer some encouragement, a prayer, a poem, a verse of scripture, or an image for Kelley.

Thanks friends. Thanks.

May we continue to treasure one another here, doing all that we can to support one another.

xx00xx00xx00xx00xx

saint

Hugs F&F --sad to loose another sister.......

Moody---Here is a verse some interpret to mean a woman's hair should not be cut--1 Corinthians 11:14-15 reads: "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is glory to her?" 

An argument I have heard about a wife being "property" states that a wise man cares well for his livestock as it is his livelihood-therefore his wife would be treated equally as well at least! 

.....but I think we have finally come to a resolution when you agree to not following everything in the bible. That is mainly where I was headed. I heard a show on the radio Sunday AM about a man who took a year to live EXACTLY as the bible directed including not shaving, what he ate & wore Etc.....it was absolutely fascinating & you might enjoy it if you can find it (chemobrain can't remember it just now-but I may be able to find it after a little research)

Hugs all---be well & stay strong 

moodyk13

Wow!  I couldnt imagine being disciplined enough to follow everything in the bible for a day, much less for a year!  I wonder if that included gossip, coveting, eye for an eye.....LOL  I am guessing he was only doing "Old Testament" for his eating?  Does sound interesting and would love to read it if you found it.

I can say with all confidence I won't be getting my hair cut ever again.....LOL....okay maybe one day it will need cutting, I am just so glad to have hair! 

I'm going to make me a t-shirt that says "I survived chemo......my hair didn't!"  LOL  This time last year I had beautiful long blonde hair, today it is dark brown about 2" long and real curly.

I didn't agree to not following everthing in the Bible, I agree that I wasn't capable of it, but of course I never would claim to be able to anyway.  I still believe that the Bible is God breathed and God's words written through men.  The important thing is that I lose nothing by believing this and it isnt like I am out of touch with reality, so it's all good.  I also believe that everyone has the right to believe what they want also and we can all still be freinds and have enjoyable conversations and debates.  At the end of the day, no one can "prove" with 100% certainty anything one way or the other so we could all be wrong about everything!!  LOL

I know that I have alread learned much from you, and that knowledge I treasure so I thank you for these discussions!  Some people might just get mad and tell me to go away--LOL

Held

Just wanted to share some happy news with my cyber mentors.  I got my tattoos yesterday!  Yippy!  And, YES it DID hurt!  OUCH!!!!!!!  But it was worth it.  I did get blood all over the inside of my brand new Victoria Secret bra.  The doc kept asking me if I was ok.  It did hurt a lot in some areas, but compared to the pain I had a year ago, this was nothing.  My husband reports that they "work" (I will leave that one up to your imagination )  So I am celebrating - will you celebrate with me?  God is good!