Presidential debates on ABC right now-both parties

anneshirley

Ditto!  And to confess, when I read your post on Spitzer I thought--good, a liberal here.  We all develop calcifications when it comes to looking at other points of view. 

I actually do think there are other points of view, not just the Democrats.  McCain just gave a speech, more nuanced than usual, about the U.S. not leaving Iraq in turmoil.  I actually agree with that particular point of view.  Iraq made have been run by a dictator, but at least the Iraqis had clean water, electricity, and homes.  Now their country is an absolute disaster and all the cause of the United States by its unjustified invasion of Iraq.  We can't just go off and leave them to solve the problem that we created.  But we need somone who's actually interested in solving it, not just in creating more turmoil.

I don't think that either of the Democratic candidates believes we can just walk away.  Unfortunately, they both have indulged in the rhetoric to a point that they can't easily move away from it.  In many ways, it's much like McCain's "one hundred years."   I'm sure there are many Americans who hate war as I do but know that Bush has placed us in an impossible situation, and the Iraqis.   I thought in reading McCain's speech that he may be trying to move toward the center now that he's got the nomination.  The two Democrats will have to do the same, but because they're locked into this primary contest, they can't do it.  Maybe their respective campaigns can meet in secret and agree to not discuss the war any more. 

Rosemary44

I read the Rasmussen reports, and I want to change the subject here for a moment.  That home page of Rasmussen picks up articles written by various columnists.  Am I the only person who notices that snarley-snake Dick Morris writes an anti-Clinton column everyday that Rasmussen picks up? For all I know he could be writing that column for Rasmussen.  Wouldn't you think that a national polling service should stay neutral?  I don't know if I can believe their polls anymore.

anneshirley

Don't have an answer to that, Rosemary.  But snarley-snake Dick Morris is one of the better descriptions of him.  He really turns my stomach.

saluki

Rosemary--I get as nuts when I see Dick Morris as I do when I see Chris

Matthews salivating.  But I see allot of different columns on that site whose positions I disagree with but the Rasmussen polling has been pretty credible.  

Anne--McCain listens to many diverse voices and truly works across the aisle.--He is the true maverick in this race.

Chuck Hagel and McCain are very close friends and although they disagree on Iraq--they do talk.

I think he will be on Hannity and Colmes tonight.  It will be interesting to see if McCain can broach the center enough for Hagel to eventually support him.

anneshirley

Drooling Chris Matthews!  Yup, right up there with Dick.  What I don't understand is how Matthews (aside from his snarkiness) is able to stay in TV broadcasting!

We all go there Shokk!  But I don't feel guilty when I say anything mean about Matthews. 

saluki

Don't forget the shivers that go up his leg when he hears Senator Obama speak--Now there's an impartial newscaster. LOL

saluki

Actually it was a thrill going up his leg----Don't think I want to know where else that thrill went. The visual is too much to comprehend.

saluki

Actually it was a thrill going up his leg----Don't think I want to know where else that thrill went. The visual is too much to comprehend.

shokk

Ok speaking of newscasters how cute is it that Anderson Cooper is so smitten with Obama..........he can't even breathe normally around him........want to talk about a crush.......and ok Hillary fans us poor conservatives have been having do deal with Matthews for a long time..........at least Hillary is not on the bottom of his list......Shokk

anneshirley

I think she is!  At the bottom of his list, that is. He loves John McCain (also salivates when he hears his name) and I'll swear that if Obama gets the nomination, he'll slice up Obama as he's now doing to Hillary. (I also think he's a MaleCP--rumors abound of him making plays at guests, female: NPR)  Also, although Matthews started out as an assistant to Tip O'Neil, he's moved far to the right since then.

I like Anderson, so he's easier to forgive.  I like what he did during Katrina; he was one of the few reporters that really told it like it was. 

Rosemary44

Susie,

I hope Rasmussen is trustworthy, but I'll keep an eye on them anyway.  They should stay neutral. 

I'm hearing there is something going on to end the dems quasi deadlock early.  They may be hatching something up that's acceptable to both candidates after all the primaries are finished.  The supercandidates will be able to come out of hiding soon.

NoH8

I do not hate Hillary-- I don't like her brand of politics and I don't think she's particularly good for women in general. There is a difference between hating a person and hating that person's political game playing. The only politician I really hate is Bush-- but I don't hate him as a person-- just 99.9999% of the decisions he's made as president.

I hope that whoever the democratic nominee is, there will be a strong VP and I hope that presidential candidate can keep ego in check and doesn't need to be all about  me me me.

Rosemary, I do not think either candidate would chose the other,although I sometimes wonder if the party elders might try to get Obama to take Hillary on if she agrees to bow out soon.  I think it would be a BAD idea for Obama to be forced to have Hillary as VEEP or forced to be Hillary's VEEP. If Hillary did get the nomination, her VEEP nominee would have my sympathies,because being VP when the first spouse is an ex-president who won't keep his nose out of things and she who taking all the credit is probably an unenviable job.

Paulette531

And how was it REALLY during Katrina anne? Were you there? Did you work with any of the misplaced people that were bussed to Houston? I am curious as to your response because I worked with 123 families 24/7 for over 30 days providing housing, food clothing etc. for them and got a really good idea how it REALLY was.

shokk

Ok guys.....does anyone want to make a short list of their respect nominee's VP choices?  McCain and Liberman........of course I did vote for Huckabee in the primaries and no Anne you did not influence me......it wasn't his dimples.......it's his tax reform........wanting to do away with IRS........I am a flat tax gal.......ok anyway Anne, Beese, Rosemary, Amy, Susie........VP may come to be very important for the Democrat nominee........Shokk

anneshirley

Paulette--sorry that you don't like Anderson Cooper.  I do.  And I congratulate you for being there for the folks from Katrina. I'm sure it was well appreciated.  But I don't feel limited to writing only about those things in which I've been an actual participant. If that were the case, we'd have to abolish this thread, and then where would we be for entertainment.

anneshirley

Obama:  Bill Richardson or one of the women governors that are supporting him.

Clinton:  Obama, if he'd take it.  John Edwards, possibly.  After that, I don't have a clue.  Perhaps Jon Corzine (sp) of New Jersey.  No too liberal, and he has a beard!

Actually for Clinton, I haven't a clue.  It would have to be a man and probably someone a bit younger than she is, and preferably a southerner.  For all of those, Edwards works well, but he may not want to serve as VP since he had wanted to be president.  Also, if he took the Veep spot and they lost, his chances of coming back again would be nil.  He would be regarded as bad luck.

I sure hope McCain doesn't pick Lieberman, but I don't think he will.  I think he'll find someone pretty much in the middle of the road on both the war and social issues.  I don't know the Republican Party enough to take a guess.  Romney makes sense but I gather they hate each other. 

Rosemary44

Amy,

I'm still having high hopes of an old fashioned kind of convention where the candidate is chosen by the people in attendence.  Now that's a real convention.  If our candidates can behave towards each other till then, we should be able to go to August.  I do agree that Hillary should step out if all the numbers are against her.  All of them.  If not, give us that old time convention.

Hillary wouldn't take the VP position.  She would get the women's vote though.  Nor, would I expect Obama would want that position either.  Hillary wants this all for herself, she isn't going to share it with Bill.  Can you imagine the history in this, a wife of a former President getting elected President, here in America. 

John Edwards would be my choice for Veep, hands down.

anneshirley

Me too!  John Edwards was my pick before he dropped out.  And although it's not relevant, I admire Elizabeth Edwards very much.

Anonymous

Oh my, here we go again with Amy's rhetoric.

In another context your story might not have been inappropriate-- in this context it shows that you don't understand the ramifications of slavery that are still being felt in this country. I am not personally offended, just astounded at your gall. Yes, we have to move on, but not by making jokes about slavery and pretending it didn't happen. Part of your moving on is understanding that there is a context in which some people are still hurting from the trauma of their ancestors and extending that christian hand you purport to have to see where they are coming from. People won't move on if you continue to deny the context that shaped their beliefs.

Amy, give it a rest for pete's sake!

Where did I make a joke about slavery?

Where did I imply or say I'm pretending it never happened?

I just had to repeat this from Amy's above quote: 

Part of your moving on is understanding that there is a context in which some people are still hurting from the trauma of their ancestors and extending that christian hand you purport to have to see where they are coming from.

Again I ask, WHAT!!!?  The "hurting from the trauma of their ancestors.....?"  WHAT AGAIN!!!?  No, but perhaps they're still hurting from what was done to THEM!! 

What, Amy, would you have ME do?  C'mon, Amy.  I need YOU to tell me what to do?

You think you are one of the only persons to understand history.  Or to know history.  You can no more understand what it is like to be an African American than I can because, Amy, you NEVER walked in their shoes.  You may understand what it's like to be gay while I don't because I never walked in YOUR shoes.  If you think for one moment by stirring up hate between the whites and the blacks is going to want whites to UNDERSTAND, you are dead wrong.

And, Amy, BTW Obama didn't want his presidential race to be about

race!  It was when his "minister," Wright, was outted for his spewing

hate that race became an issue.  I never looked at Obama's race.  I listened to what he said which was EMPTY!  Charismatic, yes.  But nothing there.  YES WE CAN.  YES WE CAN.  YES WE CAN.  WE NEED A CHANGE.

And, if for one moment you think he's gonna pull out of Iraq in 16 months as he has said, he won't and he can't.  First he'll keep enough troops there to protect this and that, and then when Al Queda sets up it's base in Iraq he'll bring back the troops. He makes no sense.  I am really surprised that you being sooo intelligent would fall for his baloney. 

Yes, it does take GALL to come of this thread and speak out about our beliefs...unpopular at that.  I would appreciate if you would keep your condescending remarks to yourself.

Shirley

Beesie

"I listened to what he said which was EMPTY!  Charismatic, yes.  But nothing there.  YES WE CAN.  YES WE CAN.  YES WE CAN.  WE NEED A CHANGE."

Shirley, you forgot about my personal favorite.  JUDGEMENT TO LEAD.  As evidenced by???  One speech in 2002??   All I know that is good judgement doesn't seem to very prevalent lately, from either the Obama or Clinton camps. 

Anonymous

Beesie, they're fighting each other to hard to have time to think about "judgment."

I wonder why Obama's FORMER pastor is dodging his speaking engagements.  If people fall for the "security" issue with Wright..RIGHT!  Obama doesn't want him to speak.  Obama and Michelle have been CAUGHT lying!

Why are politicians so dumb?  Do they not know about the internet?  The nosy reporters?  The video clips re Bosnia and Wright's sermons? 

This election isn't so exciting anymore.  Too much lying.  Too much dodging and ducking.

Shirley

Rosemary44

What is happening, and I hear this from the reporters on TV, their emails and fax machines are full of vitriol coming from both campaigns about the other candidate. 

They can't stop themselves from this type of campaigning and they're being egged on by the media that needs them to make missteps.  How long can they keep the Minister and Misspoke in the headlines?  They have to have new stuff.  Issues, the media doesn't care about that unless someone has a small gaffe.  We'll just have the wait this out.  Obama lied/Clinton lied/voters cried. 

Anonymous

Im wondering why is it that we are so forgiving of Obama?

...he sold drugs when he was younger

...his middle name is Husein

...he went to muslim school when he was younger

...he is so involved in the Rezco thing.  Which is a big deal here in

   Chicago.  Lots of illegal things going on there, money made with

   bribes, etc.

...his affiliation with Wright is unforgiving in my book

...his wife - well - she aint no first lady

...he has done nothing for Illinois as Senator.  Nothing.  Started

   running for president the day he was elected as Senator.

When he talks to a group, I feel like he is a minister preaching.  Makes me want to vomit.

It took me along time to decide.  But if Clinton isnt nominated, I will vote for McCain - that will be a first for me.  Have never voted Republican before.

I am quite disappointed in our "free country."  To take away votes from Florida and Michigan is just wrong.  Should never have happened in the first place - too bad the democrats had to make things goofy.  Are we not free because we can vote?

If the superdelegates, make a decision that is against the popular vote - well then I will lose all faith in voting....

And I do believe, that once we have a democratic nomination, if its Obama, the Republicans will crucify him.  He aint seen nothing yet!

NoH8

I think a McCain/Lieberman ticket would be almost unbeatable. It would be a brilliant move on McCain's part.

Paulette- I commend you for volunteering during Katrina in the trenches. Not many people really put their thoughts about the devastation into action the way you did and I admire that.

I have a love/hate relationship with Anderson Cooper. On one hand, I resent closeted folks in the public eye, because they have the potential to make live easier for those who are suffering because of their sexual orientation. I believe that to whom much is given, much is expected. On the other (superficial) hand, he's so adorable. Seriously though, I admired his work on Katrina and how he put himself on the line. I don't always agree with his points of view, but I do like him.

Nicki- you know I luv ya, but you're spreading misinformation about obama.

...he sold drugs when he was younger UNTRUE- he used drugs

...his middle name is Husein -Why doesthis even matter and why does he need to be forgiven for his middle name?

...he went to muslim school when he was younger- In the immortal words of Dick Cheney-- So? He was 6 years old when he attended the school in Jakarta. He also spend 2 years in catholic school.

...he is so involved in the Rezco thing.  Which is a big deal here in

   Chicago.  Lots of illegal things going on there, money made with

   bribes, etc. Nothing ever proven- just speculation and allegations

...his affiliation with Wright is unforgiving in my book - No one has ever said that Wright said this awful things every week or even more than a few times.

...his wife - well - she aint no first lady I think Michelle is a class act and would be one of the best first ladies we have had since Betty Ford. She's bright, educated, down to earth and not a politician.

...he has done nothing for Illinois as Senator.  Nothing.  Started

   running for president the day he was elected as Senator. I don't know enough about this one to comment.

Shirley-- you ask why Wright is cancelling speaking engagements--- I dunno-- it might be the DEATH threats he's been receiving for people who have mistaken the 30 second sound bite from his 30 years of service to the country. I know Faux has been on the story- breaking into the news when there'sa cancellation. Imagine if they did that everytime there was a soldier death in Iraq-- oh wait--- that would remind people that soldiers are dying still and those numbers have increased. So much for the surge.

NoH8

Shirley- if you asked your question in seriousness, I would have you talk to blacks of your generation to get some perspective about what it was like for them before the civil rights movement. I'd encourage you to read up on black history and Jim Crow Laws- the pbs website has some great information, including narratives of people who lived through that time -- not just the experiences of blacks, but whites as well.  http://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/index.html 

I don't know if you know any holocaust survivors-- people who were in concentration camps and survived or children who's parents died in the camps. Most are profoundly effected by the experience. In the 400 plus history of the USA, it's been barely150 since slaves were freed and not even 50 since Jim Crow laws were abolished. That isn't much at all.

There's a great book/website http://www.silentracism.com/ that talks about how "Race awareness in well-meaning white people-including racial progressives-is both sorely lacking and a crucial piece of the racism puzzle. The collective voices and confessions of "nonracist" white women heard in this book help reveal that all individuals harbor some racist thoughts and feelings. " I really like this one, because it talks about how all of us have some racist thoughts and feelings because if we can realize our bias we learn more about ourselves. I've got my own biases-- when I hear or see something that confirms my bias -- such as a preacher talking against gays, I try not to think AHA-- I was right about them but sometimes it's such a knee jerk reaction I don't even realize it's happening.

Rosemary44

The Rezko trial might bring out the conversation that Obama had with Rezko over the lot sale next door to his mansion.  I understand the feds have taped conversations of Rezko, they might have tapped his phone also.  That would be interesting to hear their exchange.

NoH8

Might-- I'm in favor of not finding people guilty based on political speculation.

Anonymous

Amy, the link you gave on "silentracism"....of course there is racism in our country.  And like I stated, it will never end.  We are dealing with real people here. 

Some people can be sitting next to a car at a red light and hear the BOOM, BOOM with rap music blasting.  One of the first thing one may think is that it is a black person.  Look over at the car and see a white person.  That's only one example.

There will be rascist attitudes for ALL races.  I'm not saying it's right.  I'm certainly not saying it's healthy.  And those "few" little sermons Mr. Wright gave was enough to upset many people including some blacks.  Those African Americans are trying to move on.  I don't care how upset Wright is over his past he needs to move on.  He's supposedly is a very bright men.  Why doesn't he use his intellect in uniting instead of reminding people what they have gone through even back to the slavery days?  Don't you think that the blacks that lived before and beyond the civil rights movement remembers?

I would be the first person, believe it or not, if I saw an African American person mistreated because of their color to speak out against the offender.  I do that now.  I do not like racial epithets.  Have I been guilty of the past of using them.  Absolutely.  I'd be a liar if I denied that.  But we learn from our mistakes.

Did at one time it bothered me because blacks were moving into "our" neighborhoods.  Yep.  Didn't want my property to decrease in value.  We learn from our mistakes.  We have plenty of African Americans living throughout our neighborhood and I think NOTHING of it now.  What I care about is their character.

So, I'm here to tell you that I am not perfect, but I am not a die-hard racist.  Of course it's human nature to have thoughts.  I'm sure some blacks have some pretty negative thoughts against whites.

I do believe most of us who are decent citizens are trying hard and trying to understand how some blacks think.  But, Amy, we cannot and must not hold on to the past.  We must move forward.  I cannot hold onto my past although I've admited it's nothing like slavery, or what the whites did to the blacks.  Of course I cannot lash out at this country because my little experience was within my family.  There are times I do get a bit sad, not angry, when I think what should have been, what I missed, the fear, how I was treated.  And, again, I'm not comparing my little experience with a much more big experience that affected everyday lives that the blacks had to deal with in this country.

On the other hand, many Africans that live in their own country are treated much worse than in this country.  I believe that African Americans are much happier here than if they had never come here no matter what hardship their ancestors before them endured.  My dd and sil are traveling through Africa (I have no clue where they are right now and IF they are okay), and I heard their experiences.  I hope they right a book.  The poverty in some of those countries is absolutely horrid.  The poverty in this country is absolutely horrid, but less of it. 

I sat down at the computer with my granddaughter who is now five.  I showed her pictures and videos on my children's website.  I would show her the pics of children and what they lived in, how they dressed, what kind of foods they ate.  Of course she's a bit young to really understand.  I would show her pics of the cars they drove (taxis and such).  I'd ask her how would she like to live like that and how very fortunate she was.

Teaching values and tolerance comes from the home FIRST.  I have to wonder what this "reverend" Wright taught his family.

Shirley

shokk

Good morning liberal friends.........so it took me a while to figure out that Anne thought I was a liberal because I took up for Mrs. Spitzer and Amy assumed I has homophobic because I am conservative ..........ok ladies I hope you guys realize that most conservatives have hearts.........because I have had a cheating husband and because I just happen to believe that love is love......we really don't have control who we love.......I don't really buy into the sexual persuasion is a choice........I didn't choose to be heterosexual anymore than Amy is lesbian......I believe its the way we are born.......and how can love be wrong except of course if you have some kind of harmful fetish such as having relationships with children love is a beautiful experience.........you guys are just too funny..........anyway I have some work to do......I will be back.........Shokk

NoH8

Shirley- I do not believe that holding onto the past is helpful. in fact, I agree with just about everything you said. The point I've been trying to make is that I think progress comes from the acknowledgement of the context-- not from simply being appalled by it. For instance, with no context and on the surface for anyone to say that the government created AIDS to kill black people sounds crazy and paranoid. If someone was personally effected by Tuskegee or knew someone who was- it's understandable how someone could draw that conclusion even though I don't agree with the conclusion.

I believe in that understanding there can be a gap bridged between people who disagree and who have had different life experience. Like the example shokk gave about me-- now when I see  that she understands where I'm coming from and any differences we might have are about beliefs, my guard is down and I'm more open to hearing from her. That's human nature. Even though I have only had one "christian" woman tell me she didn't want to be around me because I'm lesbian-- that experience has left me guarded because I don't ever want be that vulnerable again. I've had so many more positive experiences with christians. When I heard at that creepy convention all about protecting society from  gay relationships-- it's a visceral reminder of that woman. I don't want it to be, it just is.

I honestly don't believe Wright used that horrible racist language and thought as a practice over his career. If he did, he wouldn't have white ministers coming out to support him and he wouldn't have build a church with such a reputation. Bill Clinton wouldn't have invited him to the mea culpa whoops I accidently cheated on my wife with an intern, spilled some on her dress and repeatedly lied about it brunch with other church leaders throughout the country.  I do not believe Barack or any biracial person would have stayed in a church if that talk was par for the course. It was so clear to me in his speech (maybe not as much if just reading it) that he loved and respected his grandparents and mother.