Enlighten me: Limit--one gun per month-Problem?

AlaskaDeb

Amy-

I stayed out of this the past few days because we were obviously talking about apples and oranges.  You we worried about urban gun violence, I was talking about protecting my  home and family in a rural environment....but now you want me to find a humane way to deal with the bears I feel I need to give you a little more information to help you understand my life.

I live in rural Alaska.  We have brown bears also know as grisly bears here.  They are not in a zoo or in a wildlife viewing area they are in my yard; sometimes between me and my kids.  This summer alone we had at least 11 different brown bears that we identified in my yard, and those are just the ones we saw well enough to tell them apart.  We don't even bother to count the black bears because there are so many that come around some years.  This year we didn't have many black bears.  We assume that is because we had so many brownies: they kill and eat the black bears.  We had 3 different brown bears kill and eat full grown moose within 500 yards of my house this summer.  I didn't kill any of these bears.  Shooting any animal, unless I plan on eating it, is always a last resort....but you can not reason with a hungry 1,500 to 1,800 pound bear.  She doesn't care that you want her to leave, she just wants to feed her cubs and all you are is meat to them.  Brown bears can and do kill and eat people up here.   

Usually you can scare a bear away by shooting near it.  Most of them are smart enough to stay away, some are not.  3 summers ago my dad, who lives ½ a mile away had to kill a brown bear in his yard.  This as AFTER the fish and wildlife protection agency brought a huge live trap made of a steel pipe turned into a trailer to his house and caught the bear.  They then tagged it and released it over 80 miles from his house.  Just over 48 hours later it was back in his yard trying to kill his dog.  He shot it and killed it.

We are not a clan of ignorant hicks living up here in the wilderness.  We do not indiscriminately bang away at anything that moves in the forest.  I will, however, use a gun in defense of my life, my family's lives or my property and livestock.  I own legal guns and  use them in legal ways.  I refuse to apologize for that.

I can also engage in a debate on gun ownership in general.  I could trot out the statistics to support my belief that owning a gun IN GENERAL makes me safer, but I really don't want to spend the energy debating something that I feel I have a 0% chance of convincing you about.  I have no problem with you not owning a gun.  I have no problem with you voting for any type of gun control you want, just as I have the right to vote against it.  Please give me the courtesy of not chiding me for my legal ownership of, and use of guns in an environment you know nothing about.

Deb C

crystal1

I wasn't originally in this discussion, but I had to add that, like AlaskaDeb, we live in an area where we may have to shoot a critter getting into the livestock. My husband & sons also shoot trap. We have guns, but have never threatened to shoot another human being!! I think as more & more of our society are urban dwellers, guns are seen more as the tools of criminals, but where we live, every neighbor around either hunts, protects livestock, or shoots trap...and we have surprisingly little crime that involves guns, believe it or not!

Bren-2007

Oh boy, I've stayed out of this one too. But it's too much fun to resist.  My ex and I lived in a large metro city and he collected guns, all kinds, and I had my own, which we'd go target practicing with.  I always handled guns, even as a young girl, and was quite comfortable with them and quite a good shot.  But, my ex was nuts, we had every kind you could possibly imagine and some illegal.  And crates and crates of ammunition.  Except for the illegal mac 9's, it was his legal right to own all of them.  He eventually got rid of all but a few of the handguns.  And I eventually got rid of him.

I then moved to the mountains of southern Utah, alone and 30 miles from town.  We had a problem up there with mountain lions.  You don't know fear until you've heard the particular wail of a mountain lion just outside your living room window.  I was also being stalked by a male human.  So, I bought a 410 shotgun and got really good with it, had the local sheriff out to talk safety and contacted my nearest neighbor (fish and game guy, also heavily armed).  Now, I felt safe. That's my right ... self-protection.  I also own a small handgun ... again, my right.  It is also my responsbility to know how to clean, maintain and operate these guns safely, which I do.  I now live in rural VA and my SO is gone most of the time.  My three dogs are actually my best defense, but so are my guns, my brains and my telephone.  In my experience, people in rural areas are generally born and raised with guns, taught how to shoot safely and proper gun maintenance.   

Saluki, back to your original question, I think there is such a huge difference between owning an arsenal in the city and having particular guns for hunting and home protection in rural areas, as I have experienced both situations.  And it also depends on the gun owner as well.  My ex lived in the city,was a collector and was nuts, I live in the country, own two guns for home protection and I'm pretty sane.   

Anonymous

Deb....I just want to say that I know nothing about guns and don't care to. Where I live there hasn't been a murder in 10 years and the only wildlife I've ever seen are birds, squirrels and deer. But your description of your environment scared the crap outta me! I can't imagine ever seeing a grisly bear in my backyard! You must be one strong, brave mama!!!!  

~Marin

nosurrender

Well nobody better try to take my Red Ryder Double Pumping Action BB gun away from me..... I haven't shot my eye out yet.

Anonymous

OH man!  "A Christmas Story."  Sure do wish that movie was on right now!  One of my favorites.

Nicki

NoH8

Alaska, we are talking about apples and oranges. I can't even imagine your life, having lived in cities and suburbs all my life. You might as well be living on mars. When we have a bear that comes down from the woods and roams the streets (maybe once a year or two) animal control and/or the police use tranquilizer guns and take him back to the wilderness. We never used to have bears, but because of all the trees they're tearing down for commerical businesses there is less untouched forest area.

Do they use tranquilizer guns or anything like that where you are? Obviously people's lives have to come before the animals' lives. I'm really glad to hear that you use shooting as a last resort, I have heard others who aren't as thoughtful.

I did grow up in a place where hunting was  rampant. My high school even had a GUN club where the kids would practice target shooting. Believe it or not this was in a day when the kids could keep the guns in their lockers until after school. I never liked hunting or guns. In fact, I've never even touched one and never plan on it- like you fitchick.

I'm going to ask my friend from holland what they use on the farms and rural areas (although there's not much in that country) since guns are illegal in that country. My kind of country, legal drugs &gay marriage and illegal guns!

AlaskaDeb

LOL Amy...And here I thought YOU were living on Mars

I forget some times how different my life seems to most people.  I grew up here so it seems normal to me.

Just FYI, you can shoot a brown bear with the tranquilizer gun, but you better be someplace it can't get to you, like a helicopter, when you do.  It takes about 5 minutes for the tranq to take effect, and in the meantime, the bear is...shall we say...not happy!  The real problem is that brown bears are so large it is hard and expensive to move them once you have them tranquilized.  They are also known for returning hundreds of miles to where they were causing problems in the first place.  Also, ironically it is not legal for me to shoot a b ear with a dart gun.  It is considered harassment.  I don't think you can even own a tranq gun.

Many groups and people get offended at how we, as Alaskans, manage our animal populations.  I think you would have to live here to really understand the big picture.  I could tell you stories about bear attack that would curl you toes...all of them happening within 50 miles of my house. 

I wonder what they do in Holland too...though it is so populated I doubt they have much of a wild animal problem....though maybe they have a wildLIFE problem.....All those legal drugs...LOLOL

ravdeb

Well, Ladies, you have all enlightened me and I hope that Saluki was equally enlightened.

Just to add to the discussion... I live in a country(Israel) where there is a lot of violence going on..not in my backyard but in my country. Anybody who wants a gun here can get one after being properly trained, etc.. There are strict laws about it but I'd say that most housholds have at least one gun/pistol and a high percentage of people carry their pistols with them on a regular basis. We have weapon checks everywhere (including the grocery store..I am always asked if I'm carrying a weapon) and you need to show your gun license if you are carrying a gun with you.

Although there are criminal shootings here, they are rare and most of the killing that goes on here is on the roads...deadly car accidents. More people are killed here in car accidents than all the wars and terrorist attacks. And like I said, many, many people here carry pistols with them to work, and everywhere they go. They are just not used very often, thank goodness.

So, the fact that some countries have guns banned doesn't really explain less violence. There is something within the culture that builds the violent acts and it can be violent with or without guns.

Personally, I hate guns. I've been afraid of them since I was a child because that's how I was taught. And I've got two sons in the army who carry guns, and we have soldiers sitting alongside me on the train with guns...we see them everywhere here. We are an aggressive society but not a violent society. We just have a lot of political unrest..But it has nothing to do with the guns.

I would vote against guns in Philly if I were to vote on that. No need for guns in people's homes there. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be fair for gun collectors but if people are abusing their right to have a gun then it should be banned. There should certainly be no ban on guns in places like where Deb in Alaska lives...that is a survival tool and nothing else.. 

saluki

Yes I was Rav Deb---Nice to see you!

I must say I've been truly clueless about the other side of this.  I can't even imagine a place where people aren't living on top of each other.

Where I worked Amy-was very near where Officer Cassidy was killed.

---Literally everyone who works in my office are prisoners---we had individual cages for our cars---learned to look mean on the street--and carry a paper bag instead of a hand bag-----It took me to years to get up the courage to walk two blocks to my favorite Jamaican restaurant--past all the drug dealers---to get my Chickenfoot Soup and Carrot Juice.

I had no sooner congratulated myself--when the following week there was

a shoot out in that very restaurant ---carrying out into the street---

Headline read--Shootout on Broad street---I went back to delivery.----

And I can't tell you how many people have been killed within that two block radius since I've worked there.  Countless merchants, bystanders---madness!

So I was a little more than taken back when this was so swiftly defeated and on another one --"Legislators postponed action on a fourth bill which would require gun owners to promptly report lost or stolen firearms, although the same committee rejected a similar measure earlier this year".

We all have should have the right to be protected---It has been to say the least--"Enlightening" 

MargaretB

I don't have a problem with people owning guns; after all, we have the right to bear arms according to the Constitution.  Like someone said, I don't think our forefathers were talking about semi-automatics and AK47's when they wrote the Constitution but a shotgun I don't have a problem with. 

I don't like guns, never had them around with the kids, but that's my choice.   When my hubby was married the first time, he had a small handgun and the day after his then wife pointed it at him in an argument, it was sold.  I don't live in a high crime area; however, there are gangs all around me and Oakland, which has one of the highest crime rates in the country, is not too far from me, and Palo Alto, which at one point not too long ago had the #1 murder rate in the country, is just south of me.  I hear of way too many deaths by gunfire. 

I also don't live in Alaska like Deb does, but I can assure you that if I had to worry about bears while my kids were playing in the back yard, I would certainly have a gun close by.

Margaret 

AlaskaDeb

Susie-

Wow. 

Marin said I was one brave Mama...well, I've got nothing on you!  What city is this?? 

I can not even imagine people having a shoot-out where I go to get take-out.  The more I think about it, the more I think I will take my wildlife in the yard over your shootouts in the streets!  I don't know how you cope with that kind of violence and fear.  I would not do well with that.

When I went to college in Kalamazoo MI, a small city, but huge compared to where I grew up, I was constantly getting into bad situations and wandering into slightly dangerous area just because I was clueless about how to act in a city.  It took me 2 years to even get use to carrying keys...I had never done it before.  When I was growing up our house didn't have a lock and you always knew where the car keys were because we never took them out of the ignition. 

As much as my lifestyle must seem strange and foreign to a lot of folks, I truly can not imagine living in a really big city.  I would have no coping skills at all there....

There is a very vocal group here in Alaska that wants more people to start carrying visible weapons.  Their theory is that if more people were carrying guns when the "bad guys" start shooting, then the "good guys" would at least be able to defend themselves.  They also say that there would be a deterrent to gun violence when MORE people have guns. After the last big shooting spree at the college...West Virginia maybe??  Can't remember what school for sure...Anyway, they ran a bunch of adds saying if just one professor had a gun and knew how too use it there would have been way less death that day.  I have always thought this group was very extreme in their thinking, but after reading what Ravdeb had too say, I wonder if the theory might have some merit...

I don't know what the answer is.  I think if someone is crazy enough to want to kill a bunch of people they will find a way...a pipe bomb, a 5 gallon can of gas and a match, even a car used as a weapon....gun or no gun they will find a way.

On a totally different subject...Chickenfoot soup????  Please, please tell me it is not really made out of a chicken's foot!  I have chickens, and I see what they walk in!!!  I hope if it is really made out of chicken feet they do a thorough pedicure first!!

saluki

Deb---Where else would this be but "THE CITY OF BROTHERLY LOVE"----Philadelphia----the number one murder capital of the United States.  And if anything the violence in some areas is underplayed rather than creating more panic in the communities.

Gotta say very twilight zone and sad to work in a practice where your patients show up on the local nightly news, some as the victims and some as the suspects.----At least we got to go back home at night.

I always carried mace---Always left with the Doctor and Pharmacist and they carried guns. If my car was going to have a problem starting in the alley you bet I wanted protection.  And you are right --if you are out to do violence you don't need a gun. 

Many of our patients have knifes --so did some of the staff---It was unspoken.----They didn't want any hot heads who threatened them in the office or had a grudge coming after them at closing.

To tell you how Kafkaesque it all was---The week before I started working there;  There was a fight between two of the Medical Assistants---One put a knife to the throat of the other one.

So why didn't she get fired you may ask?  Because that was the "Nice" one---- 

Reason turned on its head!   

Needs to be some solution out there that would be livable. 

Ah yes chickenfeet ---most wonderful comfort food---and yes --the toe nails do get clipped---most amazing gelatinous  taste---makes the best chicken soup with dumplings.

They have another specialty called "Manish Soup",  I'll let you guess what that is. 

Chickenfeet wonderful in Chinese Dim Sum as well, braised and red cooked---also nails clipped----always means the ultimate comfort food to me---but then again, maybe its an aquired taste--lol 

NoH8

Saluki I didn't realize that's where you worked. Officer Cassidy's shooting was so tragic. I couldn't believe when a week later two other officers were shot, but thankfully they are okay.

I did an internship in kensington, at child psychiatry center and that's the only time I ever worked in the city. I'm not scared to go to center city, but I don't like driving there. My cousin lives in the bella vista section of the city and I'm ok going there, but I hate the drive there.

Maybe if I had grown up in a different place, I wouldn't be so anti gun. I hate the idea of an animal being shot as much as I do a person the same way I hate hearing about an animal being abused. I have no experience with wild animals, so maybe if I lived among them I'd feel differently. What would steve irwin do? LOL.

As for teachers being armed or walking around armed, I think that's crazy. Remember the courthouse shooting in Atlanta a few years back? A criminal grabbed a gun from a police officer and used it to kill a few people. I wouldn't want to live in a place where people walked around carrying guns.

I don't think I could live in Israel. Off topic, Rav, I saw a powerful documentary called "To Die in Jerusalem" http://www.todieinjerusalem.com/ about 2 17 year old girls, one from Palestine and one from Israel. The Palestini girl walked into a market as a suicide bomber and the only other person killed was the 17 year old Israeli. The pictures of the girls side by side looked remarkably similar. The documentary followed the two mothers as they dealt with their grief. The Israeli mother wanted to meet the Palestini mother. Individually both moms were empathic and saying much of the same about the violence and the deaths, but when the two moms finally got together over video conference, their defenses were so high they couldn't be vulnerable with each other and the meeting didn't go well. If they had a mediator it probably would have gone better. I just can't imagine living under that type stress.

NoH8

Oh Saluki, I'll have to take your word about chickenfeet-- I'm not adventurous to try it.

ravdeb

Amy...I remember that terrorist attack well. The reason she got through is because she was a girl and less suspicious. Not anymore. Everybody is searched. And yes..the two girls looked alike but they were from two different planets.

Although this is the reason many Israelis carry guns, very few have had to use them for defense. The security guards do that. But there is a story of a man in the next village from ours who used his and saved his life against a terrorist. This was years back. I don't know too many of those, though.

Philly is a dangerous city. I didn't realize quite HOW dangerous but I have a friend here in Israel who grew up in Philly and she told me that it was tough there. I don't think guns should be allowed because the attitude there is not safe for having that many guns around.

But..out in the wilderness where Deb lives...yes. And where we live, yes. I don't believe that guns are abused nearly as much here as in the cities of the United States.

NoH8

Rav, the documentary left me thinking those planets weren't as far apart as I had thought beforehand--especially from those mothers' points of view. The palestini mother had no idea she raised a suicide bomber, she was angry at the girl and grieving. The israeli mother wanted very much to know what the bomber was thinking and WHY. Politically the might have been on different planets, but emotionally I don't think they were. I could really see where each woman was coming from probably to the chagrin of some of my older Jewish relatives.

This might be a really dumb question, but is it dangerous all over Israel or just in certain parts. The impression I've always had since I was a little girl is that it's a war zone all over, but that's probably wrong a lot of people go there for vacations and holidays.

ravdeb

Amy... the mom may not have known what her daughter was up to but those two moms are in two different worlds.  JMO

And no..I don't live in a war zone, that's for sure! Their limited missiles are going towards one town in the south or they end up in the deserted desert. It's horrible for the people who live in that town, Sderot. They are running to bomb shelters daily.

And during the second Lebanon war (which I was not in Israel for) there were a couple of times where my family had to go to the bomb shelter, but nothing happened in our town. It was further north.

But that was a war. We are very safe for the most part throughout Israel and we live normal lives shopping, going out, I walk the beach daily, etc. All the things that you all do. And I'm not afraid. There's no war here right now.

Binney4

Ravdeb, Saluki, and Alaska, thanks so much for your fascinating posts. It's amazing to me how all of us can be in such close communication and yet come from such different "planets." How wonderful!

(Amy, I think the emotional similarity of those two mothers you were speaking of is only superficial -- they had both lost young daughters, which is universally daunting. The differences between them are millenia old, both political and cultural. Well, and spiritual, of course. That kind of looooong tradition and sense of homeland has no equivalent in the U.S., which in the long sweep of civilization is still "wet behind the ears." So I think it's hard for us to grasp. We're a highly mobile culture of quick answers, and we're definitely focused on the emotional. But then, that vast degree of different experiences among us all is what's making this conversation so mind-boggling.)

I just wanted to add that my husband and I used to live in a part of New Mexico where most everybody took a gun along when they took the garbage out to the alley, where you wouldn't want to risk using a tranquilizer dart on the rattlers either. Too many, too fast. (I didn't tote a gun, but then we didn't stay there long...)

Binney 

Sierra

About guns:



We have just had 4 murders

within 24 hours..

in Metro Toronto

I have known 2 people who had guns
one a relative, in the US, and I told
him not to bring them out when I am there
again.. he was a collector

and the other man: an older man
I told him the same thing
A few years later, he took his own life
with the gun ((



Of course, now the issue

it seems often is the Tazer (sp)

several issues with that too



Even when we stayed in Washington

MANY YEARS AGO, at the hotel they told

us to be very careful, and not to walk around

too far from the hotel



These people will continue to get guns

if they want them.. One was a stabbing



In one of our hospitals, a patient was stabbed

some weeks ago by another patient. He happened

to be a Cancer Patient



There is so much poverty now
on our news today, I believe
they said the rate had almost
doubled (not positive on that)



)