ER + and soy question

Tricia

I was diagnosed with ILC ER+(95) PR+(90) HER2- a few months ago. I had a single mast (no rads or chemo) and I have been on Arimidex about 6 weeks now.
My onc has never said a word about diet in general or eating things like soy.
Side note: I always had frequent sinus headaches and when I mentioned this to my chiropractor, she said quit eating wheat and dairy. I have, and that has definitely reduced the number and severity of the headaches. But I used to use whey protein for a quick, easy breakfast, and I ate LF cottage cheese and yogurt, to help with losing weight.
I have always taken a lot of supplements.
Soy seemed like a good way to get low calorie protein in my now limited diet.
Any thoughts?
Thank you in advance,
Tricia

Sandra1957

My current breakfast of choice, which I feel is probably the most significant key to my 25 lb. weight loss is:

1 cup steel-cut oats cooked with cinnamon. I add mixed berries, golden raisins,
and slivered almonds. It's nutty, chewy and keeps me full and satisfied.

Tricia

Lini, congrats on the 25 pound weight loss!!! I love steel cut oats, too.

Some mornings, I have to leave for work by 6:30, so the protein shakes were mostly for those mornings, so I can drink and drive.

Cynthia1962

There's rice protein that would work for your shakes. For additional protein, you can try beans and nuts. There are also Quorn products which are vegetarian and made with fungi. It tastes better than it sounds. lol

Cynthia

Rosemary44

Genistein in soy promotes the growth of tumors after 13 weeks of eating it and recently, they think it isn't too heart healthy either. I wish I knew of another source of protein for you. I do add whey powder to my berry fruit smoothie for a another choice.

Tricia

Thanks, Cynthia. I saw the rice protein at the health food store, and was thinking about trying it. They also had egg protein. Have you ever tried that?

Rosemary, that makes me think I should avoid soy. Thanks for the info.

Tricia

Cynthia1962

Tricia,

No, I haven't tried the egg protein, but I have started eating more eggs. I get the eggs with more Omega's in them so they have an add'l benefit. I was a vegetarian when I was dx'd, but after I found out I was ER/PR positive, I gave up soy and added chicken/turkey and wild salmon to my diet. It can be difficult not eating wheat and dairy. I have a wheat intolerance but I haven't been able to completely quit eating it. Good for you for giving it up!

Cynthia

wallycat

I posted a few studies on the food section that indicate flax and genstein (one of the phytoestrogens) in soy actually help boost the effect of tamoxifen --especially in those gals where the hormone therapy becomes inactive.
Soy works very much like tamoxifen in that it plugs up the estrogen receptors and then cannot turn and express it.

Tricia

Cynthia, when I go to Miami, which is where all of my appointments are, I stop at wild Oats. They have a lot of whest/gluten free products. I bought some rice noodles to try, too.
I seem to be able to tolerate a small amount of dairy, I sometimes have half a carton of yogurt.
I think I will get some of those eggs and make some egg salad this week.
Tricia

Rosemary44

Dietary genistein negates the inhibitory effect of tamoxifen on growth of estrogen-dependent human breast cancer (MCF-7) cells implanted in athymic mice:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez...Pubmed_RVDocSum

With soy research they keep trying to have it both ways. I wonder who is paying for the research? I can find just as many "it's good for us" research papers as I can find those that state the opposite. Meanwhile all the testing is done on mice.

Tricia

Rosemary, it seems like my oncologist would have told me to avoid soy and flax just to be on the safe side. The guy at the health food store was really pushing flax. When I told him my concern (including about soy) he said he had never heard this. He didn't realize some breast cancers were ER+. I even went back with my path report to prove to him I wasn't making this up. He still pretty much dismissed the idea. It worries me that he could be making thisng worse for some women.

Rosemary44

I don't think Onc's really excel at giving food advice. I don't think mine as even once mentioned food of any kind to me in 3 years.

The health food stores are there to sell products. I can't tell you all the things I've read about how good soy is for us in their hand-outs and magazines. The soy industry is doing a great job.

BlindedByScience

Flax seed is controversial, but so far I see the evidence as showing a benefit for the freshly ground seed and oil--not the defatted flax flour. Others will tell you to avoid it just to be on the safe side, but those omega 3 fatty acids are really lacking in most diets. Omega 3 is also found in walnuts and many fish. If you eat fish instead, you'll also be getting some Vitamin D. Most of us need more of that, too.

Again, from what I've read, the whole soy may be OK, but soy protein isolates, soy flour, soy supplements are all suspected of being bad for ER+ bc, especially in postmenopausal women--either natural or chemically-induced menopause.

I avoid milk & milk products and gave up soy milk when I was diagnosed. I switched to organic Rice Dream. I use this to make protein shakes with a product I found in the last few months call Nutive organic HempShake. Yep, hemp is another source of omega 3 fatty acids and is high-protein. No one has mentioned problems with hemp as an alternative to soy, but I keep watching the news.

The shakes come in several flavors but avoid the pomegranate flavor if you're on tamoxifen. They offer 32% of the RDI of fiber, 6 g of Protein, 1.5 g of fat and 90 calories. All organic.

I found it at my local grocery for $25 a can, but online at Amzon.com for about $13. Here's a link to the chocolate:

http://www.amazon.com/Nutiva-Organic-Hem...3825&sr=8-5

Tricia

Thank you so much, this is very helpful.

BBS, I just bought a cereal at Wild Oats made with hemp. It's Nature's Path Hemp Plus granola and has 600mg of omega3's per serving. I will give the Rice Dream a try.

Tricia

joanne_elizabeth

I am confused. We can't eat dairy because of the hormones, soy isn't good for us, calcium pills alone don't cut it. Where oh where are we to get calcium to prevent osteoperosis cause by the drugs we need to take?

BlindedByScience

Milk substitutes like Rice Dream are fortified with Calcium, Phosphorus, Vit A,D & B12. It comes soy and fat-free, no cholesterol and is low in sodium. Comes in vanilla, chocolate & plain.

Some brands of Orange juice also come fortified with calcium.

Sardines (with the bones) are a good source of calcium, too.

Be sure to get sufficient Vitamin D to be able to absorb the calcium. 1000 iu per day seems to be more frequently recommended as a minimum, safe, daily dose.

joanne_elizabeth

Thanks for the info and maybe I am missing something, but is drinking orange juice with calcium any different from drinking orange juice without it and popping a calcium pill? Is it anymore bioavaiable in the juice? Lates research says you need to get it from foods (dairy and sardines where it occurs naturally ) plus pills.

BlindedByScience

I read that too, that eating foods that naturally contain calcium is the best, most bioavailable way, to get the mineral.

However, it may be difficult to get enough calcium depending on your diet. Here's an extract from a paper that offers encouragement for obtaining calcium with orange juice:

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/1/61


Calcium bioavailability and iron-calcium interaction in orange juice

H. Mehansho, R. L. Kanerva, G. R. Hudepohl and K. T. Smith
Procter and Gamble Company, Miami Valley Laboratories, Cincinnati, Ohio 45239-8707.

We have determined the effects of orange juice on calcium bioavailability from CCM (a combination of CaCO3, citric acid, malic acid, 5:1:1, mol/mol/mol) and iron-calcium interaction by using whole body isotope retention techniques in rats. The mean calcium retention values from CCM were 42.8% from orange juice and 33.0% from water, a control. Orange juice significantly (p less than 0.05) improved calcium bioavailability. This enhancement of calcium absorption is independent of orange juice's pH and citric acid. Iron absorption from orange juice with CCM (36.7%) was also significantly higher than that from control (water) plus CCM (12.3%). Ascorbic acid at levels naturally present in orange juice failed to improve iron retention (12.3% vs 12.5%) from water plus CCM. In contrast, citric acid (at orange juice level) significantly (p less than 0.05) promoted iron absorption in the presence of CCM (8.0% vs 23.7%). The benefit of citric acid on iron-calcium interaction is enhanced by ascorbic acid. In the presence of both citric acid and ascorbic acid, at orange juice levels, iron absorption from water plus CCM (37.6%) was comparable to that from water without CCM (34.5%). These results show orange juice can deliver bioavailable calcium from CCM with minimal inhibition of iron absorption. Citric acid and ascorbic acid are likely the major orange juice components that contribute to the alleviation of iron absorption inhibition by CCM.

*****

I also noticed the calcium in Tropicana OJ is calcium hydroxide--this form is more of an acid-neutralizer, probably because OJ is acidic. Calcium carbonate requires some acid to aid absorption, so you might pick that to go with the OJ. If you choose calcium citrate, be aware that the acid level in your stomach might exceed your comfort level.

NativeMainer

This has been a very informative thread, I've learned a lot from all of you. I'd like to add that a friend of mine (wihtout bc) substituted soy for some of the protien in her diet for menaupausal symptoms, and after a couple of weeks had a severe allergic (anaphylactic) reaction to soy. Not that I want to scare anyone, but just a reminder that soy is a protein and can be the cause of reactions.

I've seen mention that we (women with bc) should avoid dairy products, but I haven't found a reason for this. Can anyone here tell me why?

RobinWendy

Hi all...

I go to an alternative/complementary oncologist in addition to my maintstream onc. My cancer is er+ and BOTH doctors say it is important to avoid soy as it is at heart a plant ESTROGEN. Even though a lot of foods contain soy as a good source of protein, I avoid them as it seems counterintuitive to take medication to eliminate estrogen and then eat plant estrogen. The only "funny" thing my doctor told me is that soy sauce containes so little soy that it is OK for my to have that in my foods now and again. Hope this is helpful.

By the way, for what its worth, no doctor has ever told me to avoid dairy products!

Take care all.

Robin

Tricia

I saw my onc last Friday and asked him specifically about soy. He said not to worry about it and that there were no conclusive studies done that linked soy consumption with recurrance of cancer.
But we all know most MD's aren't well versed in the nutritional aspects of diseases. So I guess I am still confused.
I am trying adding dairy back into my diet to see if it gives me headaches. I wonder if organic milk would be a better choice, since I assume that wouldn't have hormones.

debkc

From what I've heard from my nutritionist...we are to stay away from regular dairy...but that I can have anything that is hormone and antibiotic free. So basically organic milk and eggs. She says that the hormone fed animals can and do send the hormones they are fed on to us which , in turn, feeds the cancer cells if you are hormone receptor positive. She states that it is also true for the meat that we eat. Makes sense but who knows if any of us are doing all the "right" things. There's always documentation to support every side. It's quite confusing!

Hoghedge

Quote:

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There are also Quorn products which are vegetarian and made with fungi. It tastes better than it sounds. lol

Cynthia

---

But didn't Quorn have a bad press some years ago - I clipped an article and prob still have it somewhere. I was so convinced I gave up buying it. I was never too comfortable with it anyway as I am the sort of vegetarian who does not want her plate to look like it has meat on it - do not even like nut burgers. I get my main nourishment entirely from vegetables, tweaked out of my own soil whenever possible ...(smug, smug but just so proud of being recovered enough to still do it)
Salut to all members ...
Shirley

Rosemary44

In around about sort of way soy could cause a recurrence if it interferes with tamoxifen as its being said here:

"Helferich and colleagues demonstrated that - like estradiol - dietary genistein in soy stimulates the growth of estrogen-responsive tumors. They also found that dietary genistein interferes with treatments, such as tamoxifen, that target estrogen receptors in breast tumors. (About 70 percent of women with breast cancer have estrogen-responsive tumors.)"

Cynthia1962

Shirley - I only discovered Quorn maybe 2 yrs ago, so it was probably after the bad press. If you come across your article, I'll be interested. I don't have it very often, but I know people who do.

Congrats on your garden. I tried to garden again this year, but it didn't turn out so well. lol

Cynthia

Hoghedge

Bon soir, Cynthia.
OK - flicked through diaries and found cutting in 2002.
Quote

Has Quorn made you Sick?
Quorn-brand meat substitutes are made from a fungus. (It is not mushroom protein as stated on Quorn packets.) If you have experienced vomiting, diorrhoea or other problems, please contact us with details.
Unquote

Then comes a Quorn website and a Quorn address which I will check out now to see if it still exists as I feel responsible for raising doubts on this product.

My garden is a joy to me as I am "constructing" it from scratch bit by bit. Potager still contains globular golden tomatoes, onions, rhubarb, string beans and one lonely little capsicum. Other long-drawn-out projects include extending the gravel ( or rather DECREASING the amount of lawn to be mowed) and cutting out beds for Spring bulbs (again decreasing the wretched grass)

Talk soon
Shirley

Hoghedge

'Twas not easy to locate (maybe because I am in France, no - surely not) but GOOGLEd - QuornComplaints.com, found it and rather wished I hadn't

Quote
Quorn is the brand name of meat substitutes that are made from a vat-grown fungus. Some people have dangerous allergic reactions to the fungus and suffer nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and occasionally hives or difficulty breathing. Some people react the first time they eat Quorn, while some react only after building up a sensitivity.

Medical studies have proven that Quorn's fungal ingredient is an allergen, but the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and the United Kingdom's Food Standards Agency still allow its sale. The Center for Science in the Public Interest, a non-profit food-safety organization based in Washington, D.C., has heard from more than 600 consumers in Europe and the United States who have suffered reactions to Quorn.

Despite what some of the manufacturer's (Marlow Foods) marketing materials indicate, the fungus used in Quorn is only distantly related to mushrooms, truffles, or morels. While all are members of the fungus kingdom, Quorn is made from a less appetizing fungus (or mold) called Fusarium venenatum.

CSPI urges consumers to avoid Quorn and urges natural-foods retailers like Whole Foods not to sell this product that is dangerous to sensitive individuals. Consumers who have experienced adverse reactions to Quorn may report them here.

Cynthia1962

Thanks, Shirley. That's interesting...it doesn't sound so appealing now. lol

Cynthia

Tricia

My husband read an article that said I should avoid grapefruit! Sheesh! I love grapefruit.

Caya

If you are on Tamoxifen, grapefruit and grapefruit juice must be avoided. My onc. told me this, and it was on the printout from my pharmacy when I first got the prescription for Tamoxifen.
I don't know if this holds true for the AIs, you would have to check with your onc./pharmacist.

Luckysmom

Tricia, My cancer was estrogen positive and my surgeon and oncologist both advised me to steer clear of soy and flax. I did not know anything about avoiding grapefruit however; I have been taking tamoxifen since my last rads (last November) and have not been eating grapefruits until recently... why are we supposed to avoid them? Thanks! By the way, I have been a member here since April 2006 but for some reason my screen ID now states that my membership started today ...