Presidential debates on ABC right now-both parties

Beesie,

Finished reading it.  To some of the points:

"The government . . . purposely infected African-American men with syphilis

Wright was referring to the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment.  "For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for “bad blood,” their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all.

The data for the experiment was to be collected from autopsies of the men, and they were thus deliberately left to degenerate under the ravages of tertiary syphilis—which can include tumors, heart disease, paralysis, blindness, insanity, and death. “As I see it,” one of the doctors involved explained, “we have no further interest in these patients until they die."

From an internet site. Anyone interested in learning more, just enter "Tuskegee" in search engine. 

It's one of the more infamous things this country did to blacks, and Clinton apologized for it while he was president.  Now, as far as I know, the black men already had the disease, but Wright wasn't too far from the truth. 

"We have supported state terrorism against black South Africans . . .

Reagan refused to permit sanctions against South Africa, so I give it to Wright on that one.  Another, infamous behavior. 

"The government lied about Pearl Harbor. They knew the Japanese were going to attack . . ."

This one is not wholly an urban myth, but it's close. The father of my first, right-wing, husband told me the story.  He was chief of police in Jersey City and at one time head of the police chiefs of America and had access to lots of government information. He said that the U.S. government had broken the Japenese code and knew before Pearl Harbor we would be attacked.  I believe there is partial truth in what he told me, that we had broken the code, but not that we knew when the attack would occur, but someone else on the thread might know the full story.

My point is this.  The writer listed a number of points, including the three I just mentioned, as lies.  He obviously doesn't know this country's history well or he would have had to know about Tuskegee.  And he apparently doesn't feel that what South Africa did to its native population was State terrorism.  I do think it was state terrorism.  The writer appears to be somewhat conservative, without a deep knowledge of U.S. history. 

I do agree, as I said previously, with the comment at the end, but whether that will lose Obama the election is not a forgone conclusion as this writer wants to think. 

Boy, I'm starting to sound like an Obama supporter and I'm not, but I don't want him to lose the nomination because of race, but because he's less experienced than Clinton and also because he refuses to support "mandated" universal health care.  I sound like an old tired record, played over and over again.  But that's what I want out of this election: universal health care. 

And one final comment.  I think the Australians need to atone for their own racial history, which is pretty horrendous. And I'm not too happy that so many Australians who participated in this history were Irish.  Think of it, most of them arrived in Australia as transported criminals and then treated others as the English had treated them.  But that's also true of this country, as just as many of our earliest ancestors were transported to the colonies for crimes as came looking for religious freedom.  Of course, we always emphasize the religious freedom.  

Grace--you wanted a discourse on race and we're sure having it! 

Okay Inna, I understand.  Actually, I agreed earlier that McCain could have made a simple gaffe, when I pointed out that Obama made a similar gaffe, calling the PM of Canada, the president.  One for one!

Also, you must realize that I'm getting ready for the national election and, of course, we Democrats must make use of whatever we can, within the bounds of fairness, to discredit McCain.  Saying McCain doesn't understand the difference between Sunni and Shi'a is fair game. 

Kennedy has hoof and mouth disease!  I'm a long way from ever forgiving him for endorsing Obama. 

Flaming to the death!

Thought of another group that is still remembering for well more than fifty years.  The Spanish decided when Franco died to try to repair the damages between those who supported Franco and the Republicans by forgetting; they let the monument (Valley of the Fallen) that Franco built where he interred the bodies of both sides sit.  It was something of an unwritten law not to discuss the war.  But those wounds have been festering for nearly seventy years and now they're finally opening up again, as they always do.  Some people want to destroy the monument as a shameful reminder of Franco and all those who died.  As Grace has said, it doesn't go away until you deal with it.  

Inna--Yes, that's true and many of the parents or grandparents of my friends arrived at the beginning of the century.  But the same was true of the Irish, Italians, Polish, Germans, etc.  They could assimilate in the second or third generation. Catholics were also prevented from applying for certain jobs and were also denied entrance to the Ivy Leagues.  My uncle, who fought in WWII, was the first Catholic to become a bank officer at U.S. Trust, and it took him twice as long as Wasp's with the same education and background.  But as Catholic as he was, he looked exactly like a Wasp, more so in fact.  

I just found out recently that the head of Time Warner is not only African American but was also the Managing Partner of Patterson, Belknap & Webb, a law firm that I worked for when I first got out of school.  I left the firm in 1976 to attend graduate school, and at that time the firm had a small number of Jewish and Catholic partners.  It had neither when I joined the firm as a paralegal in 1962.  When I left in 1976 it had no black associates, so apparently it's been making up for lost tme.  But from my vantage point, African Americans are always last in line, and I know that this would make me madder than hell!.   

And now back to my advocacy of Hillary!

The gall of Obama.  Just read the following:

The Obama campaign said on Thursday it would agree to sit a Michigan delegation at the convention that was evenly divided between Clinton's supporters and his.

Obama is not a different type of politician.  This actually favors Obama and is not even a solution that treats both candidates fairly.  First off, Clinton received more votes in the Michigan primary. Obama could have left his name on the ballot--he didn't. Bad advice from his campaign managers.  But in the scheme of things, in the interests of true fairness, they should redo the primary and determine which of the two the Michigan voters want for their nominee.  Instead, he wants half the delegates, which might bring him over the top to win the nomination. Clinton would be better off if they didn't seat any delegates.  Obama has been doing everything to avoid having a redo.  He knows that Michigan, like Ohio, is likely to go to Clinton.  So, Mr.Wyoming, with his 34,000 Democratic primary votes, would prefer not to see populated Michigan, a state the Democrats actually need in the general, vote.

Well, that felt good, finally getting away from defending the man to defaming him!

(If anyone is here from Wyoming, please don't take offense--just rhetoric!) 

On another front three employees at the State Department were caught looking in Obama's passport file.  Funny that the first Bush administration did the same to Clinton.  Now, I suppose the second Bush administration will claim it had nothing to do with this second excursion.  Bedtime stories!

Thanks Junie--totally forgot about Espy. 

Anneshirley,

Don't you just see the slimy trail of Karl Rove??

Cherryl

Anneshirley ,

I did not quite understand your last posting. You seem to prove my point that by working hard and investing in children , the immigrants managed to succeed even if it took 2-3 generations to do it.

IN case of African Americans the problem is that a lot of kids don't'have a stable family which takes care of them and promotes their education. As the result few of them proceed to colleges .

A friend of mine works for a large computer company.  They are looking for a college hire specifically targeting a minority. In fact they are not allowed to get resumes outside of their HR department as the list contains "qualified" applicants only, i.e. minority.  They would actually strongly prefer to hire an African American programmer as they currently don't have any. But when they started calling around , the few that were available were already hired, in fact they had so many offers they did not want to bother with interviews anymore.

Inna--what I was saying is (1) that having a white outer layer makes assimilation that much easier and it comes that much sooner, (2) that it would, of course, help if African Americans had tight family units, but because slavery destroyed the family unit, it's taken African Americans longer to develop such units--and now with the changes in the global culture (both whites and blacks) it may even take longer, and (3) educational opportunities were less (and still are) for African Americans so there are fewer black programmers, etc.  With respect to the latter, I frequently had trouble getting white or black Americans with the skills I needed on my Bell Labs account.  We had to hire most of our people from Asia.  That's a fault of the American educational system in general, not just in particular.

Anneshirley,

I do have a question. I thought that African American communities had much stronger families in the first half of 20th century. A number of single mother households dramatically increased towrd the end of 20th century. Is this correct ?

To the question about Jewish immigrants and education:  In this case I am knowledgable as I attended the City University and the Graduate Center, where a very large number of my classmates were Jewish and, in fact, most of my closest friends are Jewish, from the Graduate School.  Irving Howe (The World of Our Fathers) was my dissertation adviser, Alfred Kazin (A Walker in the City) was one of my teachers, and I worked for Allen Mandelbaum for two years as his research assistant.  (I know, my best friend . . . . but it's true.)  Even those people who arrived here without an education had the strong belief that the most important thing one could have is learning--this is very much part of the Jewish culture.  This was not an aspect of the slave culture--slaves were not sent to school and in many states were forbidden to learn to read write, or own books.  They did not have books at home.

Even in the poorest villages in Russia, and elsewhere, learning was highly respected.

About black family units.  One of the problems was the Welfare system; it pushed fathers out of the home rather than recognizing that families do better with a man in the house.  So it may be true that at the turn of the century family units were more common.  But it's not an area in which I've done any resdearch.  Grace will probably speak up on this, as this is more in her area of expertise. 

Susie--my husband learned English by reading the sports section of the New York Times and occasionally the news, but mainly the sports section.  And, of course, we talked lots as I didn't speak Spanish.  His spelling is beyond belief, however.   I don't know if the Times has a sports section any more.

IN case of African Americans the problem is that a lot of kids don't'have a stable family which takes care of them and promotes their education. As the result few of them proceed to colleges .

I'd love to know where you picked up this tidbit of "information"-- what does "a lot of kids" mean, how many is a "lot of kids" or are you just using racial stereotypes.

Anneshirley,

Unless you are 100 years old , your friends came in the later immigrant wave like me . The immigrants I reffered to in the beginning of the century were not educated at all. They lived in the small villages with no schools except yeshiva(religious school) for boys. After the revolution, when Jews were allowed to come to large cities and enroll in universities, they became educated but these people did not come to the US till beginning 1970s.

Amy,

I am once again impressed with Rush Limbo. As usually he was correct when he predicted that the liberals will attack McCain because of his age. Hs said " Wait and see. Every time he would make a small mistake, they will mention his age". That's why he campaigned for Republicans to crossover and vote for Hillary. He said that they would compare Obama's youth with McCain's grey hair every time they could.

No wonder Limbo is so popular. He knows his stuff.

 On the personal note, I find this offensive that you would insult McCain based on his age. We do have age discrimination policies just like we have race discrimination ones.

You really need to step away from "ad homeim" attacks and concentrate on issues. You start reminding me of these teenage girls at a rock concert who are starting to swoon when their rock start comes on stage. This was an example of "ad homeim" attack

Susie--If all three were  breached, I'd blame the same people I blamed before, those in charge:  the Bush administration.   Who else?

I hope Richardson doesn't endorse Obama, but I thought he might since he held off for so long. But it won't help Obama in the Pennsylvania primary, so I think it's foolish on his part to step in now.  

I think Obama would be foolish to have Richardson on his ticket.  He needs a far better balance than that--in fact, I would have thought Edwards, if he would have accepted: southern white male.  Richardson would be better for Hillary, but if Richardson endorses Obama, he's off Hillary list.

How do all these people smile and say hello after this is all over. I sure couldn't. 

I agree, it is a slap in the face, but it doesn't reflect badly on the Clintons, particularly if Richardson is expecting a VP nod, it reflects very badly on him.  I am still amazed at what ambition permits people to do.  I've been fascinated with politics from a very young age but never sought office because of the things one has to do to get elected.  Obama publicly humiliating his grandmother is one example; Richardson leaving the Clintons is another; Bill Clinton throwing Lani Gaunier under the bus is a third.  Ugly, ugly people.  I wonder some times how it would work if we chose our president by lottery:  everyone who can pass a vetting test on world and domestic affairs could enter--sort of like Jeopardy.  Or actually follow the Jeopardy model.  All those who passed the test would have to answer questions on history, politics, philosophy, morality, and the winner gets to be president.  We'd probably stand a better chance than having to choose between all these overly-ambitious, me-me-me, children.