The Brand New Respectful Presidential Campaign Thread

Felicia, I applaud what you wrote about immigration.  You are a wise and compassionate woman.  My parents came here in the early part of this century from Ireland.  And I don't believe back then you needed a visa to get aboard a ship headed to the U.S.  Of course, they examined you at Ellis Island and if you had TB you were sent back. Whenever I think of those poor folks that were sent back I want to cry.  And I wonder how many people they infected on their way back.  Wouldn't it have been more compassionate to admit them to hospitals?

I can't think of anything that makes me see red faster then folks who carry on about illegals, excepting, of course, native Americans and African-Americans who didn't have the choice to come or not.  I had an old friend who sent me a really ugly email piece one day about people here not speaking English.  When we were growing up, I visited her house often.  Neither of her grandparents (both Polish) could speak more than a few words of English--and both were in their seventies at the time.  And just recently she told me that her grandmother was actually born here!  How do people forget so easily?

Beesie--it's true that none of the 9/11 guys entered from Canada,  but my husband knew a group from Argentina who, before they got their green cards, would cross over by boat from Canada on a regular basis.  When they wanted to go home, they'd go back to Canada and fly from there.  None of them were terrorists and all of them today are legal.  So, yes, illegals cross over from the south and the north, obviously more cross in the south. 

Liz--we are not the leader in health care.  We actually rate 37 or below in the world. Our infant mortality rate is quite high compared to other western nations (don't remember the number but can ask my medical sister who is an expert on this stuff); we are also quite high in the number of preventable deaths, and in many other areas.  I can post figures if you wish.

The UK health care system (destroyed by Maggie Thacher) is far inferior to other systems in the EU; Canada, on the other hand, has an excellent system (all systems have issues); but Beesie can address that one. France, in almost every category, is number one for health care in the world.  Its system is universal.

We rate very high in technology--there are probably more MRI machines on some blocks in Manhattan than in all of Italy.  But rating high in technology doesn't mean we provide good health care.  We don't live as long as folks in other Western countries.  The measure, I think, of a good health care system is the health of its citizens. 

anneshirley,

I totally second what you said about those "English-only" people!

My mother's side of the family moved to Wisconsin from Germany in 1848 -- in a great wave of middle-class migration from Germany after the nobility squashed their attempt at a middle-class revolution to install democracy.  Most of these Germans had enough money to travel straight to the Midwest -- they didn't sail in to Ellis Island, they'd take a boat to Baltimore or Boston or New Orleans, and a train to Chicago.

Anyway -- they migrated to all-German enclaves, where they set up German-language schools and newspapers -- some of the men learned enough English to do business -- but many of the farmers just sold to German middlemen so even these men could get by with no English.  So anyway, my mother was of the 3rd generation born in Wisconsin -- born in 1924, but she spoke only German until she was 7 or 8 years old. Even WWI hadn't been enough to convert the little German-language Catholic schools in the Wisconsin countryside to English!  Didn't happen until my mother was in 2nd grade! Whenever people say "my grandparents came to this country and THEY learned English" I reply that my great-great-grandparents came to this country and their families DIDN'T learn English until 80 years later!

(The Wisconsin State Constitution was officially printed in four languages -- English, French, Dutch and German -- for distribution to voters prior to ratification between 1846 and 1848.)

I just saw ralph nadir(sic) on CNN, saying if Demmys hadnt been so stupid, we could have had Gore for prez, the very best possible prez!!

I certainly hope we can MANAGE this time!MG nadir is in HIS 70s.WHO does he think is going to vote for an old jackass?

I just broke briefly from watching tv and retching to come here (and retch).

Actually the seigue to Ellis Island is interesting.Both sides of my family came past the Lady With the Lamp.It was these immigrants from Russia who taught me what a precious thing the right to vote is, and how sinful it is to not avail of it.

"America is the Golden Land"

And the wole Woody Guthrie thing-"This land is your land, this and is my land..."

My whole family learned to speak English.The children went to school, got great grades, became doctors and lawyers.God bless America!

And now I will go and do some things I'm behind on due to this continuous tv-watching!Anneshirley implied that if I had sources (cable tv), I would be more knowledgeable.So now I have them and am too deuged with them to come here and quibble!

GO OBAMA!!

Oh and to clarify ..... I was watching Raisin in the Sun .... and it hit me about African Americans ..... they are immigrants (just like my fam) but for many of them, not all, it was against their will. And now we still have Africans immigrating her. And Europeans. And other nationalities... but for the most part, African Americans make up one of our largest percentages of our ethnic groups and they are not demanding that their native language be spoken and written. And I think there is a geechee language here in the US ... or Gullah? And what about Creole? 

The Native Americans are spending lots of money on learning their own language but will never expect it to become one of the national languages here. 

Ok ...... please don't blast me ..... I'm just tired of pressing 2 for English on my home phone, cell phone, finding English ballot information. And really perturbed about yesterday getting my haircut and explaining what I wanted  to a spanish speaking person who said yes she understood what I wanted. After sitting in her chair and her starting my haircut, I asked her another question and then said, "Do you understand?" and she said, "No."   I opted for a trim after trying to find mags with Katie Holmes haircut in it ... she had no idea what I was saying or who I was talking about. When I complained to the girl at the desk she said she knew what I meant but the manager was not in.  

I loved the economy that was stimulated by the Clinton years but afraid of the lies that the Clintons tell.  Even though I would say I have republican ideals (less taxes, states rights, less government) I would never vote for McCain.  Proud that we are in an era where either way, we are making history for I believe we will have the 1st black president or the 1st woman.

My dad lives in Italy 1/2 the year and there is only one other person in his town who speaks English ... he has been forced to learn Italian and now only gets by in his broken Italian, uses a dictionary or goes and asks the tennis instructor to help him. 

Anne, none of are saying that we don't feel sorry for them. I just don't want to be forced to pay to have all the ballots, legal signs, contracts, etc to be printed in another language. Nor do I want my tax dollars to be spent on this kind of stuff.

I am not xenophobic ... I am patriotic.  I can speak French and Spanish pretty well. I also took Italian and German in school. I travelled to France alone and before my daughter, we went to Mexico often. I deal with hispanic workers at my job daily.

I have to have 8 signs in my office ...... 4 in English, 4 in Spanish. I have to keep contracts in 5 languages and other forms as well.  

I know its hard, I give them big kudos for learning. I don't mind listening to broken English or helping translate ..... but when it comes to street signs, government ballots that I have to pay for in Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Spanish and English ..... that gets my goat.  You won't see a voting ballot in Mexico that is printed in English will  you? 

I'd wager there are places in Mexico where you will find signs in both Spanish and English, no doubt in places where lots of Americans congregate.  And isn't that the point, to make communication between people easier. I do know that signs appear in multiple languages in many countries in Europe, and I'm sure in other countries outside the EU as well.  In ireland, all signs are given in both English and Irish; in parts of Canada, one sees signs in English and French; in Spain, one sees signs in Spanish, Catalan, and Basque.  In Holland, you can find signs in Dutch and English.  In Brussels, the EU prints its documents in twenty three languages.   In many countries on the continent, English speakers are given menus in English although English is not the official language.  And I'm always grateful when English menus are available or when English guides are available in museums.  Most Americans are probably grateful as well.

Since so many countries throughout the world accommodate us; I really don't see why we can't make similar accommodation.   A recent study indicates that by 2050 Hispanic whites will outnumber non-Hispanic whites in this country.  I trust when that happens non-Hispanics won't be expected to stop speaking English and start speaking Spanish.  I believe it's just good sense to want to communicate with our closest neighbors in their language and just as good sense for them to do the same. it makes for better understanding and fewer problems.

My main residence is in Manhattan, so I know quite a bit about immigrants, illegal and otherwise.  But it's true that Maine, where I go in the summer, doesn't print documents in both languages, as it's not necessary, although it may become necessary in time, as lately without the Hispanics to do the picking, the blueberry season would go  bust.  The French Canadians who used to pick the berries don't come down much any more--as picking is back-breaking work and doesn't pay enough. So the people in Washington County are very grateful that they have illegals. And if Manhattan got rid of all of its illegals it would probably have to close half or more of its restaurants and grocery stores, or double its prices. By the way, I believe the growers in California feel much the same way as the growers in Maine, happy to have illegals to pick the fruits.

The Irish refer to their language as "Irish" to distinguish it from what the Scots speak, which is Gaelic, although both languages have Gaelic roots.  Irish did not die out in some natural evolutionary way. The Irish were penalized by the Engish if they spoke their native language--they couldn't speak it in their schools or gathering places (I'd say churches, but they weren't permitted by the English to have churches).  Irish was reintroduced by the Republic of Ireland some time in the 1940's and it is taught in all schools now but there are very few who actually speak it fluently, or at home.  I think your analogy actually works more to my point than to yours. The English-only movement is trying to force people to speak English only and it proposes penalities if they don't.

As I remember, one of the more infamous cases was of the woman who was fired from her government job for speaking Spanish to a co-worker.  They were both native speakers of Spanish.  Shades of the British and what they did to my parents, which is perhaps why I have so much sympathy for Spanish speakers.

You don't mention the Spanish example. In Spain, Franco followed the English example and did the same to the Catalans and Basques.  They were not allowed to speak their respective languages.  Spanish was designated as the official language throughout Spain.  Fortunately, when he died and Spain became a democracy, both Catalan and Basque were resurrected and are now living languages, spoken at home and in schools.  Something similar to what the English-only movement is trying to do here has happened in French speaking Canada, I believe.  (Am I right on that Beesie?).  It's gotten way out of hand, as it threatens to do here.

It's not my intention to change your mind or your feelings on this issue, just to suggest that other countries have similar problems and they've handled them in similar ways, recognizing the need to respect language rights.  I'm quite sure there are some in Ireland who would prefer to have English only, some in Spain, who would prefer Spanish only, or in Canada, English or French only.  I'm glad that the multilingual view has prevailed.  I'm quite sure if Obama or Clinton is our next president, it will continue to prevail.  I don't know about McCain but I think he also would respect the status quo.  I can only hope!  

Oh, my, my, my.  I don't know all about the history you gals are speaking of.  I can only tell you MY history.  I was born and raised in San Antonio, Texas.  We were NEVER bused.  I'm sure you know that there are MANY Hispanics in San Antonio.  Well, back in the ole days when I lived there (geez, I'm almost 62) the main language was English.  Of course we heard people speak in Spanish (Mexican).  But there wasn't Spanish signs for this or that.  The teachers taught in English ONLY unless one took a class in Spanish.

My grandparents were Polish.  No, they didn't migrate here.  Someone certainly came over on a ship.  They lived in a small Polish town.  Everyone, including the Priest, spoke Polish.  EVERYONE!  My mother and aunts spoke Polish with my grandmother and grandfather.  However, my grandparents also spoke English with an accent (no, not Texas accent).  I used to wonder what the heck they were talking about.  I sure wish they would have taught me Polish.  However, when one doesn't converse in a particular language one often forgets the language.  English was the main language in that small little POLISH town.  And not far way was a German town.

I too believe if one wants to become a citizen of the United States of American one should learn the English (American) language.  If one wants to become a LEGAL citizen of this country one should go through the proper means.  And, no, we shouldn't have to supply a foot wash basin (don't know the proper name) for a group of people who need to wash their feet at a particular time of day, or whatever the practise might be.  They should bring their own little pans to school with them and wash their feet and not break the bathroom basins.

I know all of that sounds mean.  I don't believe this was a problem many years ago.  Why does EVERYTHING have to get to the point that we should appease all people whether they are citizens or not?

Oh, I forgot.  I'm not getting into this dog fight again!  OOPS!

Shirley 

I hope we aren't equating "illegal immigration" with spanish language forms! If someone is here illegally from Mexico or Central America, I don't think they will be wanting to fill out forms in Spanish instead of English. I think they will be doing anything they can to avoid filling out the forms and will be speaking Spanish only with others who speak Spanish. The "illegals" don't benefit from these forms nor do they ask for them. Historically, they were here before us, and we (meaning the whites) actually took the land away from them. That is also true for Native Americans.



I say print the forms in as many languages as are needed. If it will get these people registered to vote and involved in the democratic process so much the better. This is another way for them to feel a part of a community.



In the San Francisco Bay Area we have a large immigrant population from Asian countries. Many of the parents do not understand English well enough to go to a doctor's appointment by themselves. They often take their oldest child with them, so that she/he can translate for them. These people are not requesting forms in their native languages--and there are many different countries represented here.



"Oh and to clarify ..... I was watching Raisin in the Sun .... and it hit me about African Americans ..... they are immigrants (just like my fam) but for many of them, not all, it was against their will. And now we still have Africans immigrating her. And Europeans. And other nationalities... but for the most part, African Americans make up one of our largest percentages of our ethnic groups and they are not demanding that their native language be spoken and written."



Of course, they wouldn't demand their native language be spoken and written here; as there is no "native language." Many African (not African American: this is defined as an African ancestry individual born in the United States of American) individuals cannot communicate with many other African individuals. There are many African languages. And someone else can correct me if I am wrong, but Afrian Americans are one of our smallest ethnic groups. The largest by far is "hispanic." Hispanic is a government definition that lumps together a number of central & south american ethnic groups as well as Mexican. Again, many of them would be unable to communicate with each other.



Having traveled outside the United States, and only speaking English, it is true that other countries do not necessarily accommodate our English speaking status; although I can't tell you how many times I saw first hand, or had situations told to me by residents of countries I was visiting the expectation that many American make that everyone around the world should speak English.



Isn't it interesting to note that many immigrants arriving in this country speak better English than most of us, and in fact have a better understanding of proper English grammar than we do! Ask the next time you visit a foreign country how many languages are taught and required to be learned by their children in public schools. In many of the Scandinavian countries and Finland the children study: English, country's native language, French, Spanish, Latin & are offered classes in German, Mandarin Chinese, Japanese & Italian.



What do we require our children to learn: English & if they plan to attend or transfer to a University after community college--one other foreign language.



Certainly that does explain some of our lack of understanding and respect for other cultures and the citizens of other countries. It also explains some of our lack of compassion and willingness to help people who "legally" migrate here from other countries.



I can see that by providing forms in a few basic languages that are almost universally taught in other parts of the world, we are providing new citizens with an easier way to become accustomed to our culture and the requirement for legal document completion when getting a drivers' license, voting for the first few times, and learning disabilities or another disability that prevents them from understanding and completing a document in English. These are legal documents, and we must do what we can to protect our citizens and make sure they are choosing wisely for themselves. A little kindness goes a long way. At least that has been my experience in visiting other countries where few knew english. The citizens of these countries went out of their way to help me. I would hope that we would do the same for others, legal or otherwise. Shouldn't we follow the golden rule? Shouldn't we set the "good" example for others in the world to follow?



grace

Lovely, Marilyn. 

Also, I'm comforted to know that I wasn't the only one struggling with Italian, and with all the best intentions in the world.  We think of returning but I'm afraid it will be even worse now as I'm eight years older.  After a certain age, it takes a great deal of dedication to learn to speak a language.  Strange how reading and writing are relatively easy, speaking is so very hard.  My husband says it's because I'm too particular.  His philosophy is just jump in.  Seems to work for him.

Thanks again. 

Very nicely said Marilyn!



Our world is changing very quickly as people migrate from one area of the world to another. I've tried to learn Spanish and Finnish (my mom speaks fairly well and was born in US). I failed miserably. I would like to try Spanish again, mostly because in California we whites & English speakers only are the majority minority! About 47% now. And it is changing rapidly. The Spanish speakers are from many different countries. I saved my tapes and book from my last class. Now that I'm retired I think I'll dust them off and give it another try. It helps to have someone to practice with I find. Think I might recruit my hair stylist!



As for Finnish, I took a class for a year at night with my mom. Even with practice I couldn't get much beyond basic numbers (1-20) and hello, how are you, i'm fine, thank you, goodbye. I spent 3 weeks w/my mom and sister meeting and visiting my maternal grandparents and their kin. All the children spoke English very well. The adults didn't know much. So the young men and women translated for the older relatives. Everywhere we went we met people who spoke English. Sometimes I would ask if we could try Finnish, and they said they were so excited to find someone from America that they wanted to practice their English! By the end of the trip my mother's speaking and understanding of Finnish increased by 100fold. She started translating for us, and often fell into what we now call Finnglish--part of her sentence would be in Finnish and then suddenly she would intersperse English. LOL

In one small village we went to the train station to buy tickets, and the seller didn't speak any English. Luckily we had Mom's friend along and she was able to tell the seller what we wanted.



I learned from that trip that becoming competent in another language, and I mean speaking well enough to take care of all your business in any environment takes time, a long time in some cases. When I meet English as a Second Language (ESL) speakers I try to help them if they need it and I certainly understand how difficult their life has become in trying to learn our English. I believe it is the fact that we don't speak "proper" english and much of our language is a slang version. The reverse is true for other languages. My mom calls them idiomatic phrases. It's interesting because her mom used words that were English and included them in a sentence. In Finland my mom found out that her mom just made up a word because she didn't know the English one. We had a good laugh over that!



It helps to read body movements also. We can learn more of a language w/gestures involved. It may look silly but it can help figure out what someone is saying or asking.



Oh, and I took a Sign Language class with my dh one time. It is more of a visual language. I did really well with it, but dh had the toughest time. He's not a visual learner.



grace