CRISCO: not just for cooking anymore?
I was so excited about the idea that one evening I grabbed my new Crisco can, took a little dab and applied it vaginally and on the vulva. Wow, it melted within minutes, leaving a not particularly oil-like residue, no burning,and an almost soothing feeling. Ah.. it was like I had found a little bit of heaven on earth. The next morning, there it was, blue and white and bold, my Crisco can sitting on my nightstand. I smiled. I hadn't felt so good in a long time.
Curious, and after my morning coffee, I put on my shades to read the ingredients. I read that soybean was the number one (greatest) ingredient, obviously formulated as a solid, not oil.
Well darn! I had enjoyed my Crisco night. But then my ER+ status creeped back in, and I recalled swirling controversy about soy (genistein et al) and in low doses causing ER+ cancer cells to grow and in high doses to not grow. LOL on this one: even the experts can't decide.
There have been many great threads about this vaginal atrophy problem, which is only worsened by hormones to prevent BC growth. So I thought I'd see if others have a view on Crisco.
Of course, I could always try a super heavy topical dose to try to get into the "inhibited" range by soy, but that probably would be a little too greasy and not sufficiently scientific for this drying-up lab-minded mouse.
Crisco: an aider and abettor, or helpful, but in a different cooking way. What do you think?
Tender
Comments
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Tender...I think that it's unlikely that such a small amount (you DID use a small amount, didn't you?) would be a problem, but have you thought of trying Aquafor? When I was given Aquafor during rads, it reminded me of Crisco in its consistency and feel. Aquafor is made, primarily, of petrolatum and doesn't list soybean or any soy product among its ingredients, so maybe its worth a try?
~Marin -
Hi Marin,
Yes, I did only use a small amount when trying Crisco. And I thank you for your suggestion of Aquafor, which I haven't ever tried.
I am wondering if doctors steering ER+ patients towards a soy based product is of some question...so thought I'd see what you all thought.
Thanks,
Tender -
There was a long thread months back on soy and soybean oil.
Estrogen free:
soybean oil (found in many baked products)
soy lecithin (found in many baked products)
soy sauce
The above list is safe.
STAY AWAY FROM:
soy protein isolate
soy protein concentrate
soy flour
soy fiber
soy nuggets
The above retain estrogen content. A lot of veggie burgers, cereal products, protein bars, (many other products) typically contain above ingredients. They should be avoided or strictly limited
Isoflavens are active estrogen components of soy.
I carry this list in my purse and always check ingredients on various products. I used to eat protein bars and veggie burgers almost daily!
Nothing in Crisco to effect estrogen positive breast cancer patients. My nieghbors friend, in her late 60's, started using Crisco upon gyno's advice and my neighbor jokes that her friend now says she has a twenty year old vagina, thanx to Crisco. She uses it inside and outside.
PS - my mother told me that movie stars of the 40's used crisco to clean the makeup off their faces. (she used to be an actress) -
I can remember using Crisco on the premature babies in the Neonatal ICU back in the '80's. It kept the preemie's skin from drying out and almost never caused skin reactions. Because there's no petrolatum in Crisco we could use it when the babies were on oxygen. It worked great! Of course, the Butter Flavored version wasn't available then.
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Crisco is mostly a partially hydrogenated fat. So is Replens, the product doctors often recommend for vaginal dryness.
I don't know how much would be absorbed, but I guess I'd rather use it as a lube than eat it. Trans-fats in our diets are considered by a growing number of medical researchers to be a big contributor to increased inflammation in our bodies which is considered the basis for many 'western' diseases--hardening of the arteries, respiratory problems, and, well, cancer. We get plenty of trans-fats in our diet, lots of omega-6 fats and almost no omega-3 fats. We need both omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids for health. We don't need, or properly metabolize, trans-fats.
If you want an alternative to Crisco, you could try buying Flaxseed oil (great source of omega-3 fatty acids) and use that instead. Get the stuff sold in the refrigerated section. It would be runny (and cold from the refrigerator!) but it is being used topically to reduce inflammation from eczema and psoriasis outbreaks on the skin. -
I WOULD CONTINUE TO USE CRSCO, BUT JUST FOR REAL SPECIAL OCCASIONS..DID YOU TRY ASTROGLIDE? I LOVE THE NAME.
ER+ LADIES, SHOULD PROBABLY STAY AWAY FROM FLAX OIL, JURY STILL OUT ON THIS ONE. -
I think Replens & Crisco are considered options because trans-fats are not a natural fat and aren't readily broken down by the microorganisms in our vagina. That means these fats are probably not able to contribute to yeast infections or bacteria infections as they aren't used as a food source. The only thing they might do is act as a stable platform for adhesion and growth within the vagina. Flaxseed oil on the other hand IS a natural fat and MAY be used as food. Perhaps that isn't the best choice. And whipped cream should only be used on an occasional basis.
So, rock and a hard place.....Astroglide is a good lubricant for sex and can also be used with a vibrator or manual stimulation of the tissue on a daily basis to help bring blood to the area and keep the tissues from atrophying. -
Tender-
I heard about using coconut oil on the mojo thread. It has the consistency similar to Crisco- but smells a whole lot better! I get the extra virgin (haha) organic coconut oil at the health food store. I use it a couple of times a week and I have not had any atrophy/dryness problem yet. Knock on wood. -
FWIW, I myself would never use Crisco because: 1) it's a hydrogenated oil and if I wouldn't eat hydrogenated oils (our bodies don't know what to do with them as we weren't designed to deal with them as they're man-made) why would I put one in my body another way, and 2) soybeans are the #1 GMO vegetable - or is it #2 behind corn - and I don't do GMO's. I say, buyer beware. I think there are more 'natural' alternatives out there. Again, JMO.....
Jaybird -
If you are worried about Crisco's soy and transfats although the new Crisco stoped using them; This may be an alternative for you. I ran across it at Rose Levy Biranbaum (The Cake Bible) site. She is substituting this product for Crisco. IT IS ORGANIC --available at Whole Foods--even Kosher if that is a concern.
Here is her post.
IMPORTANT NEWS FLASH!!!
Some one posted on the blog that the new Crisco without transfats didn't work in the white rolled fondant. This put me into a real panick because I have a terrific recipe in the upcoming book that uses the chocolate rolled fondant.
Fellow blogger Zach Townsend tested the recipe using the new Crisco and sure enough it tore instead of stretching. He then tested the recipe using the organic Spectrum vegetable shortening that another blogger recommended for use in bread a few months ago. Eureka--it worked better even than ever before. Whoever it was who made that recommendation please step forward so we can all thank you. By the way, the spectrum shortening is available in Whole Foods and I'm sure other stores as well.
From the kitchen of Rose on 09.05.07 at 7:49 PM
http://www.spectrumorganics.com/?id=87 -
This soy thing is so confusing. Years ago, we were told that eating soy was GOOD for you if you were ER+ because the plant estrogens competed with natural estrogen for sites and the plant estrogens did not have the same "bad" effect on cells as the natural hormone. I guess that thinking changed or is there still controversy about it?
As I am ER-PR+ (but weakly so), I guess the soy issue is not important for me. It still kind of creeps me out, though, as a just in case issue.
I did not know that Replens was glorified Crisco. LOL. I sure have wasted a lot of money on it, then. Have used the Astroglide, but that is an event thing. The Replens is an every other day maintenance. So, you say not to just insert it but "shake for 10 minutes."
My grandmother used to say "Getting old is no fun." I keep remembering that.........
Tina
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Oh, about the Crisco being a partially hydrogentated fat and worrying about that not being good for you..............My (somewhat educated) guess is that since it is not ingested, it is not absorbed by the body - no digestive enzymes in the vagina - molecules too big to pass into the blood stream - and all that. I really doubt that these fats will harm you. Just my take on it. Was a chemist in my former life, but I don't know everything.
Tina
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Thank you all for your comments and recommendations on "Crisco". It's wonderful to get responses to a dilemma which is so common. To summarize, alternatives suggested are Replens, Astroglide, Organic Coconut Oil, Aquafor, possibly Flaxseed Oil, possibly Crisco, and Organic Spectrum vegetable shortening.
Estring and Vagifem are vaginal estrogen compounds. Patricia Ganz M.D., oncologist, UCLA just answered whether they are appropriate for ER+ breast cancer patients on the August BreastCancer.org "Ask the Expert" series. She indicated she does not encourage their use due to absorption of estrogen. For those who do use them, some recommend checking blood estrogen values during their use, and of course limiting the time used. Dr. Ganz is dedicated to finding solutions to common survivorship medical problems. She is a wonderful source for patients in the LA area.
Lastly, I found one clinical trial on this matter:" Estring use for the Relief of Postmenpausal Urogenital Symptoms in Breast Cancer Survivors" at the University of Maryland.
Their link is:http://data.umms.org/scripts/trials/trial.cfm?ID=GCC 0464
I have a call into the contact person to check on the status of this clinical trial, which my research shows may be the only trial being performed on this important topic. I'll post back whether it is still active after she calls.
Thanks again for your welcomed replies.
Tender -
All I have to say IS, my onc specifically told me not to use ANY estrogen. He said gyns may tell you it's okay. So, I'm doing what he said. I was highly er/pr+. My tumor was 4.5 cm and had another one in a different quadrant of the breast.
Shirley
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I know I'm late, but I've been away and busy.
Wanted to share one more oprtion (the only one for me).
My total reaction to Crisco is ewwwww!
I would not want grease, food! in my bed, or bedroom!
As a Whole Foods shopper, I have long ago put my trust in this awesome company, for all solutions.Because everything they sell is "clean" pure, aesthetically pleasing.And harmless.
At the Whole Body department years ago, I found a nice little tube of "BornAgain" Vaginal Moisturizing Gel.
It's got wild yam extract and vitamin E, is greaseless, fragrence-free, non-staining, water-based.
And best of all it contains citric acid for ph balance.This is really important for stuff you put in your hoo-hoo, to prevent yeast infections, which, sadly, go hand in hand with this new dryness.
So there it is.Another issue helped by Whole Foods, for me.
Gotta say, if any doc ever suggested I use Crisco as a moisturizer, I'd say "You first"!
I can SO not imagine any physician using Crisco in bed!Not when there's lovely clean Astro Glide,simple K-Y Jelly, or lots of other really nice stuff!And also, Emeratas, the company which makes the best natural progesterone cream (which I'm not allowed to use , even though not progest+) makes a beautiful personal lubricant and "plumper-upper".Not only does it have natural aloe gel and extract of calendula, and the lovely citric acid, but also for ph balance, it has walnut leaf extract.
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I don't know about crisco for the hoo hoo....maybe butter flavour though
Tina
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OK, my two cents worth. My Onc also told me to stay away from any estrogen. Since I am highly allergic to soy that is not an issue for me....I have spent years avoiding it in any form. I once spent the weekend with a friends half sister in San Francisco and could not eat a thing at her house since she lived on tofu and soy products. She was highly offended and I was completely embarrassed (at the tender age of 19 I never wanted to offend) but the stomach issues (like food poisening) was just not worth it.
I guess I would suggest following your Onc's advice since they know your situation the best. If they think the Crisco solution is OK for you then maybe it is OK for you, but without the Onc saying so I wouldn't try it.
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Hey gals, my gynecologist wants me to use twice weekly an estrogen product for pre and post operation that I must have sooner more than later to repair a rectocele and cystocele. Yep, wonderful situation. Oncologists so far have said no, breast surgeon can't see not to if it is for a short while. I have to get them somewhere on the same plane to use the stuff. It will only be for a few months and only be used sparingly....I am suffering with this complaint and it needs to be fixed. Ugh. Comments? I am on Arimidex and don't have any complaints.
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chemo put me into menopause and what a horrible thing at 42! my gyn told me to use crisco (to my suprise) and my oncol said that would be fine (i am er+) ...
so crisco it is..and what a great discovery! I LOVED IT and it wasn't near as messy as the replense or other lubes you buy...
I would highly recommened to anyone "crisco" for lube..
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Colleen,
I'm very interested in the Crisco. My onc didn't have a problem with me trying it either; however, she laughed and wrinkled her nose when I asked about it. I've been using Vitamin E capsules which she recommended. These work pretty well; but I would like to try the Crisco. I have a question though, how do you get it up your whozits? I'm not trying to be funny, I just would like to know. I thought about using the applicator that comes with Replens.
Chris
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I'm so confused. Is there a book or something I can buy on vaginal atrophy?Maybe that wouldn't be the Title, LOL, but a book that would cover that and menopause for cancer survivors. I have the dryness and muscle thinning, I'm 55 and hope that the atrophy can be reversed and restored - anyone know? Right before my July 06 dx I was at gyn and had first exam in years, well, I almost flew off the table when that awfull metal "jaws of life" was used. I'm no baby about pain, but it was excruciating. Nurse told me about atrophy, something I was unaware of or was in denial about. The cancer dx was soon after and I concentrated on that. Now I'm ready to tackle the problem, but am ER+ and on femara. I've been researching internet, but never heard of the soy problems (love chinese food, is it ok?) or other places estrogen might be hiding and waiting for me to ingest. Of course I'll read more, but can some of you suggest good reading materials or sources to learn more about the sexual issues for women who cannot take estrogen in any form. I'd appreciate it and know others would, too. Thanks for the comments so far, I've learned a lot and want more facts. take care, debbie
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Has anyone tried Liquibeads? One lasts for up to 4 days.
My gyn suggested Vagifem and the onc said okay, even though I'm on Evista. I don't like it too much, though.
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Deb,
In ER+/PR+ breast cancer, the final answer is still out regarding soy and soy products and so most experts advise avoiding it. Maybe cancers respond differently one person to another in the presence of soy, one ethnic group reacts different to it than another because of our genes, our proteins and our own metabolism of products.
Breastcancer.org would be a natural recommended source for answers to questions you're asking. Here is a link to a Q&A done in 2001:http://www.breastcancer.org/tips/intimacy/ask_expert/2001_02/index.jsp
Last month at the Ask the Expert on Breastcancer.org questions were asked about vaginal atrophy and answered by Patricia Ganz, M.D., at Managing Ongoing Medications. My recollection is she discouraged vaginal estrogen due to absorption issues. No one asked her about Crisco though. Here's the link:http://www.breastcancer.org/treatment/planning/ask_expert/2007_08/index.jsp
A NY Times Bestseller is "For Women Only" by the Jennifer and Laura Berman, both physicians, one is a urologist and the other a psychologist I believe. They do talk about breast cancer and hormone deprivation effect, sexuality....
Peaches, I remember Liquibeads now that you mention them. Thanks..
Thanks everyone for all the great comments and suggestions for alternatives. I know that vaginal atrophy happens naturally, yet it is one of the most lingering, painful reminders of breast cancer. I'm hopeful someday perhaps our hormones will stimulate the vaginal mucosa, but not the cancer cell. Maybe a pill combining low dose Tamoxifen for the vagina plus regular dose Arimidex or Letrozole or some combination could work...
Nothing to report on the Estring trial: no phone call from them so maybe it's officially ended.
Tender -
I'm on my way to the store! -
Gals, i found this info on estrogen creams & breast www.medscape.com/viewarticle/522309 My onco doc referred me to an excellent female gyno doc for my atrophic vaginitis. She recommended using Estrace (estrogen cream) in the most tiny amounts externally, daily (apply in labia folds above pubic bone). I voiced my concern. She assured me she's not insensitive to est+ bc's and has done this with many bc patients...even her sister had est+ bc. She says using it externally it is not absorbed systemically. I tried it for 3 weeks and of course it cleared up my soreness...and even stopped the bladder leaking that we get w/o estrogen. At the 3 week point she drew blood to test my est level...and sent me home with instructions to continue using the cream,. only 2 x a week..and eventually only 1 x per week...still the tiniest amount (less than 1/2 a pea). The scary thing is she called with estrogen results a week later and said I am on the high end of the range for a post-menopausal female. Prior to that i had found this article and decided to quit using it. The thing is...i want my onco doc and gyno doc to have a talk.
Anybody else have this experience????? It's so scary.
I might try the Crisco...but where does it go if it is not absorbed? I wouldn't worry about the "soy" content. Soy oils/fats are sooooooo refined...the soy protein portion (the concern) is pretty non-existant...at least that's what i learned as a food scientist in my previous life.
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Girls...i just noticed the page link for the above article doesn't get you quite there...but if you google 'estrogen creams and breast cancer', look for the medscape site...and there it is.
fran
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And the other thing is....i get Lupron monthly....PLUS i've been on Aromasin since April. Why am i on the high side of the range is what i'm wondering. It had to be from the Estrace cream....this tells me I did absorb it systemically. Altho..in fact I really need to compare estrogen levels of a previous test and this one. Previous test was just prior to my getting Lupron injections and starting Aromasin (after rads treatment). I saw my onco doc yesterday. He said to call him today (we were waiting for the gyno doc's office to fax my blood test.
Anybody have any light to shed here???
fran
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Hi Fran,
I may have some helpful information that might lower your appropriate concern over the high end for menopause range serum estrogen value. I have posted on this before in several places, as I had a similar experience on Arimidex several years ago.
I researched the details required to properly collect and process blood for serum estrogen (estradiol) in a women on an AI. Because the expected blood value range is 7 to 9 or so picograms/ml, the main potential for mistake is running a patient's blood using a radiaoimmunoassay where the lower limit of the blood value is calibrated at 35 to 50 picograms/ml.
By running an AI taker's blood on the standard test mode for serum estradiol, the methodology can't even "see" the true low value, and falsely reports it as 35 or so pg/ml and above range.
Additionally, an AI patient's blood must be frozen, and processed in a timely fashion for accuracy, with the lab aware that the patient is on an AI, so as to ensure proper lower limits on the test.
Mayo Laboratories, Cleveland, is capable of such, so you might ask your oncologist to arrange for proper testing there.
This is what my looking into this showed. I even called the Arimidex pharmaceutical about it, to review all with them. Their original research establishing the AI drop to around 7 pg/ml or so, found that 1 mg of Arimidex did this is about 96% of women.
I hope this helps you some. Perhaps others might let us know their experience.
Tender -
Wow Tender, thanks so much for this info. I was wondering if we'd be comparing apples to apples with these tests. I'm going to mention this to both docs.
fran
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I thought wild yam also had estrogen-like effects and wasn't a good thing for ER+
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