Calcium and vitmin D---Please give me a break!

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  • saluki
    saluki Member Posts: 2,287
    edited May 2007
    That supplement sounds pretty good to me. I had been taking 1500 calcium a day but about 8months ago my calcium came back pretty high and my pain management doctor sounded concerned. I've consistantly taken enough magnesium because
    it helps my arm spasms.

    He wanted the blood work retaken and wanted to keep an eye on it. He also asked me if I was taking calcium supplements.

    I waited three months to have it redone. In the meantime I halved my calcium intake. I retook the tests and my calcium is completely normal.

    I'm at a complete loss as to what to do. I see him next week.

    I've also read in passing that taking Vitamin C can help prevent these deposits. Can anyone shed some light?
    They also said not to take the Vit C at the same time as the calcium.

    Susie
  • Rosemary44
    Rosemary44 Member Posts: 2,660
    edited May 2007

    That Posture D is light on magnesium. It should be at 300 mgs. Unless you don't mind taking them separately.

  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited May 2007
    Saluki, calcium metabolism is tied to many things. 1) good kidney & liver function 2) vitamin D blood level 3) vitamin K level 4) healthy thyroid & parathyroid glands and a whole lot more.

    Do you take Vitamin K as a supplement? This can help.

    Do you have a current test result on your blood level of vitamin D? If it's too low, you'll get hypercalcemia; if it's way, way, too high, you'll also get hypercalcemia.

    I've been reading that some docs are reducing their recommendation for the amount of calcium we need. Rosemary has a good point--our food has some calcium too. Many cases of osteoporosis can probably be tied more to Vitamin D deficiency rather than calcium deficiency (my speculation).

    Sometimes the problem can be made worse from drinking soft drinks --see the article on pubmed below:

    J Am Diet Assoc. 1982 Jun;80(6):581-3. Related Articles, Links

    Soft drink consumption, phosphorus intake, and osteoporosis.

    Massey LK, Strang MM.

    Just some ideas.....
  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited May 2007

    One thing I forgot in the post above--Vitamin D is immunoprotective only when combined with a high-calcium diet. How high might be questioned, but I would still supplement!

  • Rosemary44
    Rosemary44 Member Posts: 2,660
    edited May 2007
    WebMD has a lot to say about vitamin C and bone health:

    http://www.webmd.com/news/20010208/drink-your-orange-juice----its-good-for-your-bones

    Here is where I find the most info on nutrients in different foods:

    http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR18/nutrlist/sr18list.html
  • saluki
    saluki Member Posts: 2,287
    edited May 2007
    My diet is very high in calcium. So I know I've been getting
    allot there in addition to the supplement.
    Because of my RSD I've also been going with a 2:1 ratio of
    magnesium to calcium--- which I know is the opposite of what most are doing.
    I'm more prone to osteoporosis because of the RSD as well.

    I've been taking 2400 IU D3 for many months. Still taking between 800 and 1000 calcium.

    But I have not been supplementing K or Phosphorus by itself.

    You are definitely right BBS. I haven't had a thyroid test
    since before Chemo. And considering my climbing BP and these massive sweats I'm going to remember to ask this time
    since it can be a symptom. And with the calcium level I'm sure my PM Doc could have been considering my parathyroid.

    My Kidney function has been fine.
    My liver function tests though have been a constant source of panic since they are always off. I've taken Thislyn for years.

    So, I'm watched closely and have very frequent labs, so noone will object to giving me a few more. LOL

    Rosemary- I'd rather supplement separately. There is always something I don't want in them.

    I'd love to find a B complex thats not loaded with thiamine.

    I'd love to find a multi that only uses Carotenoids instead of Retinol.

    I won't come near Vitamin A. I am convinced my massive breaks are not due to Chemo,
    but the Accutane that I had two courses of for acne. They finally took me off when the bone pain had gotten so bad I wound up on crutches.

    Accutane is a retinoid. Roche had to disclose (but try to find that) that Accutane can cause fractures, osteoporosis and osteopenia. There are many lawsuits.

    You don't see that making the news either, but they are feeding it like candy to the teenagers!

    Nope no vitamin A for me no matter what dose they say is safe.

    I belonged to LEF for the past 5 years but everytime I bought something, they would reformulate it. I even have
    a bottle of some great thing that everyone needed from them.
    It had alot of literature and I must have spent about sixty five bucks. I never got around to opening it---Good thing too, because it started giving some of the customers cardiac symptoms.

    I think they have very high quality products, -good quality control but I'm a little uncomfortable with their quickness
    to keep reformulating. I do continue to buy their products
    but I'll go with Constantine, Dr. Weil or Dr Stoll on what to get from them.

    If anyone knows of a good multi without Vitamin A -just
    the carotinoids, and that doesn't give a hefty dose of thiamine or need 16 capsules in a day to take- I'd be very interested.

    What a balancing act!
    Susie
  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited May 2007
    I get my vitamin K supplement from LEF. I try to take 10-20 mg a day and it's hard to find that high a dose in 1 or 2 capsules.

    You can get 100% of the RDA of vitamin A as beta-carotene in 1 tbsp of NOW Organic Barley Grass. It also provides fiber, vitamin C (53%) and iron (33%). It probably provides a few mysterious do-good enzymes along with chlorophyll.

    Solgar has a supplement that is 2:1 Magnesium/calcium--and I've just started reading articles describing the debate nutritionist are having about the 'proper' ratio. Twice as much magnesium (or equal amounts) to calcium are all advocated by different sources.

    You mentioned RSD above. Is this it?

    Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome (RSD) - also known as Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS) - is a chronic neurological syndrome characterized by:

    * severe burning pain
    * pathological changes in bone and skin
    * excessive sweating
    * tissue swelling
    * extreme sensitivity to touch
  • saluki
    saluki Member Posts: 2,287
    edited May 2007
    Yep. CRPS is the new name but people seem to still use RSD.
    Yep. You want to get the scare of your life--just brush against my thumb nail and you will hear the shriek from hell!
    Fancy name for it- Allodynia.

    You missed the one symptom that makes me a great teaching tool to all my Doctors LOL---They just love to show the interns.
    I have an amazing temperature variation between my arms. One arm is warm- the other took a trip to the frozen tundra. It
    is a marvel to behold---
    It also looks particularly unique when it gets all mottled.

    One of the things I use from LEF for the RSD is
    R Dihydro-lipoic Acid.

    I'm going to order the vit K. Is the barley grass easy to get down?

    All these meds and supplements---So little time in the day to get them all down.
    I'll ask the Doctor about the phosphorus this week.

    Thanks
    Susie
  • Rosemary44
    Rosemary44 Member Posts: 2,660
    edited May 2007
    Kris,

    That's a high dose of K. Your talking 10-20 mgs when the RDA for K is only 100 mcgs.

    Just a half a cup of broccoli and the RDA is satisfied:

    Food Serving Vitamin K (mcg)
    Olive oil 1 Tablespoon 6.6
    Soybean oil 1 Tablespoon 26.1
    Canola oil 1 Tablespoon 19.7
    Mayonnaise 1 Tablespoon 11.9
    Broccoli, cooked 1 cup (chopped) 420
    Kale, raw 1 cup (chopped) 547
    Spinach, raw 1 cup (chopped) 120
    Leaf lettuce, raw 1 cup (shredded) 118
    Swiss chard, raw 1 cup (chopped) 299
    Watercress, raw 1 cup (chopped) 85
    Parsley, raw 1 cup (chopped) 324

    Are you not eating your veggies?
  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited May 2007
    Yes, the amount of Vitamin K I'm taking IS high--it's K1(9mg) & K2 (1 mg) per softgel. K1 is found in green plants and K2 is produced by bacteria. It's an anti-hemorrhagic supplement (and I take many blood-thinning supplements) that has been shown to inhibit tumor growth. A synthetic version, K3, was tested against multiple cells lines (cancer cells from breast, colon, prostate, stomach & kidney) and found to inhibit their growth in a dose-dependent way. The initial recommendation I found for this was in Herbal Medicine, Healing & Cancer by Donald Yance. He recommends 20 mg a day for someone who's been diagnosed with cancer.

    LEF gives this description of the K1/K2 high dose softgel below. Note they specifically recommend it for bone health and preventing calcium from depositing in blood vessels; they also mention it's hard to absorb enough from veggies--especially as we grow older:

    An abundance of human clinical data reveals that vitamin K plays a critical role in maintaining healthy bone density by facilitating the transport of calcium from the bloodstream into the bone. Few doctors understand that vitamin K is also required by calcium-regulating proteins in the arteries. without adequate vitamin K, calcium in the blood can bind to the arterial wall resulting in calcification. As people age, even a subclinical vitamin K deficiency can pose risks to the vascular system.

    Vitamin K1 is obtained in the diet primarily from dark leafy vegetables (lettuce, spinach, and broccoli). Unfortunately, vitamin K1 is tightly bound to the chlorophyll in green plants, thus, aging humans are not always able to benefit from ingested K1-containing plants. While vitamin K1 is not absorbed particularly well from food, it is absorbed from supplements, provided that the supplements are taken with meals.

    Vitamin K2 is found in only small quantities in the diet, primarily in dairy products. Human studies show that vitamin K2 is absorbed up to ten times more than K1. Vitamin K2 remains biologically active in the body far longer than K1. For instances, K1 is rapidly cleared by the liver within 8 hours, whereas measurable levels of K2 have been detected 72 hours after ingestion.

    Super K provides vitamin K1 and a new biologically active form of vitamin K2 known as menaquinone-7. The menaquinone-7 form of vitamin K is not metabolized quickly by the liver, thereby making it available to provide a more consistent supply of vitamin K to the body.
  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited May 2007
    "Is the barley grass easy to get down?"

    Well....no matter how I doctor it, it still tastes & smells like newly mown lawn. And I like it better than wheat grass juice. I mix it in orange or pomegranate juice and let it sit for a few minutes so the small, hard clumps disappear. That makes it a bit easier to drink quickly. It does get pretty thick, though, and I've made smoothies with it (orange juice, pom concentrate, flax seed oil, frozen blueberries & raspberries, ginger juice) and that makes it into a semi-frozen treat smelling of berries & mown lawn. Maybe the best I can say about it is that one can learn to tolerate it and I think it contributes a complex of compounds to my diet. Mostly, I don't think it causes any harm.

    A 2 lb tub of it is about $30. I eat lots of veggies, too, but I've been interested in the use of grasses to treat cancer, and other health issues, so the dried version just makes it easier to use. Some people take spirulina or chlorella for the same kind of benefit. This is cheaper and I don't fear it's been contaminated with heavy metals or other toxins from the sea. The tub says my grass was raised in Kansas!
  • Jaybird627
    Jaybird627 Member Posts: 2,144
    edited May 2007
    Quote:



    Solgar has a supplement that is 2:1 Magnesium/calcium--and I've just started reading articles describing the debate nutritionist are having about the 'proper' ratio. Twice as much magnesium (or equal amounts) to calcium are all advocated by different sources.

    You mentioned RSD above. Is this it?
    Quote:



    BBS,

    When I was in massage school my A&P instructor said that the mag/cal ratio should be 2/1 but all the supplements out there are the opposite! I'll have to check out the Solgar. Problem is, most come in such small doses that you have to take 4-6 of them each day and I already take maybe 10 supplements so another 4-6 pills seems like too much! Also, I've read that calcium doses should be split throughout the day, not taken all at once. Just my $0.02!

    Jaybird
  • Rosemary44
    Rosemary44 Member Posts: 2,660
    edited May 2007
    Jaybird,

    I keep powdered magnesium around for when I need another dose. I just mix it with orange juice. I can't do all those pills either.

    I found this info on what type to take, and how to know when you're getting too much mag, or not enough. It's very informative:

    http://www.magnesiumresearchlab.com/Dosing%20with%20mg%20supplementation.htm

    He also mentions the 2-1 ratio of mag over calcium but I have to go find his web site.
  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited May 2007

    Jaybird, if you decide to take twice as much magnesium as calcium, I think splitting the dose of magnesium, as you do the calcium, is a good idea as magnesium can have a laxative effect in big doses....not exactly a 'convenient' benefit.

  • Rosemary44
    Rosemary44 Member Posts: 2,660
    edited May 2007

    I can't find anything talking about taking 2/1 mag over calcium. The link I provided only says one should do that when there is a mag deficiency. I can't connect with his homepage to look up what he is referring to on his homepage.

  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited June 2007
    I thought I'd bump up this thread on Vitamin D with a new press release I saw--apparently spending time in the sun without sunscreen just isn't enough for some of us to make suffcient amounts of Vitamin D:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070629/hl_nm/vitamin_d_dc_1;_ylt=Auux.FnzHk3yIG25VrdK_g8E1vAI
    NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - In many people, vitamin D levels can remain low despite abundant exposure to sunlight, research shows.

    Inadequate sun exposure is often blamed for the high prevalence of low vitamin D status, the authors explain, but the truth of this has been unclear.

    Dr. Neil Binkley with the University of Wisconsin Osteoporosis Clinical Research Program, Madison, and colleagues investigated the vitamin D status of people living in sun-drenched Hawaii.

    The 93 participants in the study spent an average 22.4 hours per week outside without sunscreen and 28.9 hours per week outside with and without sunscreen. This translates to a mean of 11.1 hours per week of total body skin exposure with no sunscreen used, the authors calculate.

    Despite this abundant sun exposure, 51 percent of these individuals were found to have low vitamin D levels, the researchers found.

    "This implies that the common clinical recommendation to allow sun exposure to the hands and face for 15 minutes may not ensure vitamin D sufficiency," Binkley and colleagues report.

    It should not be assumed that individuals with abundant sun exposure have adequate vitamin D status," the team concludes.

    SOURCE: The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, June 2007.
  • Rosemary44
    Rosemary44 Member Posts: 2,660
    edited June 2007
    I was reading one of the gals here who said she spends a lot of time in the sun and still was low on D. Normally, in the summer I don't take as much D, but after reading what she said, and now your post that backs it up, I didn't lower my dose. I guess we should get it tested and stop the guessing.

    This is also new about eating foods rich in calcium and taking supplements, which one is best to do?:

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.calcium28jun28,0,4281993.story?track=rss


    ST. LOUIS // Most women know that calcium is critical in preventing osteoporosis, the disease of progressive bone loss and fractures that affects millions of Americans.

    But which source is better - calcium-rich foods or supplements? A preliminary study by researchers at Washington University School of Medicine suggests dietary calcium might be better at protecting bone health.

    It was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

    Though not definitive, the study found that women who get most of their daily calcium from food have healthier bones and higher bone density than women whose calcium comes mainly from supplemental tablets.

    That was true even though the supplement-takers had higher average levels of calcium.

    Calcium from dietary sources is generally better absorbed than that from supplements, which could help explain the difference, said the study's lead author, Dr. Reina Armamento-Villareal.

    Those getting calcium from foods also had more estrogen in their bodies; the hormone is needed for bone mineral density.

    Researchers asked 183 postmenopausal women to meticulously document their diet and calcium supplement intake for seven days. They tested their bone mineral density and estrogen.

    Women who got at least 70 percent of their calcium from food took in an average of 830 milligrams a day. Yet, that group had higher bone density in the spine and hip bones than women who got most of their calcium from supplements.


    I notice that they bring estrogen into the mix. There seems to be a bigger connection. Anyway, we know all about that.
  • abbadoodles
    abbadoodles Member Posts: 2,618
    edited October 2009
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2007
    I forgot about this thread. Must be taking too much Calcium..or was it D...or was it mag...that caused the plaque.

    I asked my onc about the research from Duke on this subject and she knew nothing about it. I think she thought I was nuts. LOL

    Wow, you girls are giving us much to think about. I get my blood drawn Tues. and I'll be sure to ask my pcp to do the Vit.D test you have suggested. I believe a couple of you suggested (for insurance payment) a dx of at risk for bone loss. I'm also going to give him/them (the girls in the office) this stuff to read. He, the doc, said that patients come in and tell him what they've learned and he has learned from them. I'm sure he does a little research before he takes their word for whatever. But I'm going to produce the research for him. IF I DON'T FORGET.
    Shirley
  • Rosemary44
    Rosemary44 Member Posts: 2,660
    edited June 2007
    Same story but a different version. There's something wrong with the reporting, as usual. They all start off the same way with a headline saying food is better but as you read further it says eating dietary calcium foods and taking supplements gave the best results.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/29/health/main2997935.shtml
  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited June 2007
    Just a thought--I don't have an article ready to link to that backs me up--what if milk is a lousy source of available calcium? Maybe fish (with the bones) or plant foods that have calcium are more readily used and absorbed? In the US, most women consider Tums and milk to be ideal calcium sources but Japanese women have lower rates of osteoporosis and historically do not have high-dairy diets.

    And what is it about the higher estrogen in the blood of US women who get most of their calcium from food? I'd have to guess the calcium was coming from milk---is the estrogen? or is the BGH (bovine growth hormone) that stimulates estrogen production?
  • LizM
    LizM Member Posts: 963
    edited July 2007

    Yep BBS I was thinking the same thing. It bothered me reading that those who got most of their calcium from food had higher estrogen levels since estrogen is the enemy for me. I do not drink milk nor do I have much dairy in my diet. The only dairy I have is kefir (which does have d3) or yogurt (which doesn't) for the probiotics. I also drink OJ with calcium and D3 (recommended by my oncologist). The rest of my calcium and D3 I get from supplements. The little dairy I get is organic because I do not want anything with growth hormones. I had my vitamin D checked and it was normal; however, my bone density scan showed me to be on the high side of osteopena so I am now taking Fosamax plus d3.

  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited July 2007
    OK, I post this link with some trepidation, but here goes:

    http://www.milksucks.com/breast.asp

    Some famous nutritionist--not Marion Nestle (she's good too)-- gave this advice:

    "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

    He went on to explain 'food' this way: if the label has any ingredients you couldn't pronounce or that your great-grandmother wouldn't recognize as food, put it down.

    Barring exotic fruits and vegetables, his advice makes a lot of sense. It takes us to food choices that are whole foods or simple foods. Preservatives, coloring agents, trans-fats, would all be avoided. Great-grandma might not recognize niacin, pantothenic acid or ascorbate as vitamins, though, so we should probably use a bit more judgement
  • Rosemary44
    Rosemary44 Member Posts: 2,660
    edited July 2007
    To my thinking, milk should be a lousy source of calcium because it's fortified with vitamin A. A offsets D which in turn should offset the calcium absorption = milk should not be a good source of calcium.

    If we take A, we need more D, without the D, we don't absorb the calcium as well. It's just my theory.

    I think if you re-read the second article, it isn't saying that foods rich in calcium gives us more estrogen, it is saying that women who have more estrogen circulating have better bones when on a food and supplement diet. There is a more favorable result if we have estrogen circulating, and we don't, so we need all the help we can get. And better reporting on these stories.
  • Rosemary44
    Rosemary44 Member Posts: 2,660
    edited January 2008

    There was another D report out today.  Did anyone read it?  I can't find it again.

  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited January 2008

    I saw this today--was that the article you were thinking of?

     Benefits of Sunlight May Outweigh Skin Cancer Risks
    As Reported by Bloomberg.com. 2008 Jan 7

    Sunlight may help the body fight cancers of the internal organs, meaning that surviving cancer is more likely for people who live in sunny places or spend a lot of time outdoors. A study released on January 7 by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that the benefits of sunlight in combating some cancers may be more important than the increased skin cancer risk. The authors of the study stated that campaigns to teach people of the risks of sun exposure have gone too far. People avoid the sun to lower their skin cancer risk, but as a result they have made their body vitamin D deficient. The researchers also stated that while sunlight does not lower the incidence of cancer, people who get cancer in sunnier climates are more likely to survive the disease. This effect was also seen in skin cancers, which have a higher incidence in sunnier climates. The researchers recommend using a sunscreen that protects against UVA rays. This will protect against melanoma, but allows vitamin D to be absorbed by the skin.

  • Rosemary44
    Rosemary44 Member Posts: 2,660
    edited January 2008

    Thanks Kris,

    Yes, that was it.  It was the last sentence that caught me eye.  Is there a sunscreen like what they're describing?  I thought sunscreen was sunscreen... use it and block all rays.

  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited January 2008

     Rosemary, you can find the full article at the link below, but I think the excerpt below answers your question. Newer sunscreens, and especially those containing zinc oxide, are being developed to filter UVA.

    Med College of WI article on sunscreen

    ...In recent years, however, it has become apparent that a different form of ultraviolet light, called UVA, may be even more important in causing some skin disorders. Although experts still believe that UVB is responsible for much of the skin damage caused by sunlight -- especially sunburn -- UVA may be an important factor in photoaging and skin cancers. Most sunscreens do a good job blocking UVB, but fewer sunscreens filter out most of the UVA, so they do not help to prevent the beginnings of melanoma formation.

    ...The longer wavelengths of UVB and UVA pass right through the atmosphere, even on a cloudy day. That's why you can still get sunburned on a cloudy or hazy day. The molecules in sunscreens absorb most UVB and prevent it from reaching the skin just as the molecules of the atmosphere absorb UVC and prevent it from reaching the ground. But UVA is another story.

    Most sunscreens do not protect the skin from the longer UVA wavelengths. And that may be critical to the creation of skin cancer. Approximately 65% of melanomas and 90% of basal and squamous cell skin cancers are attributed to UV exposure. The precise wavelengths of ultraviolet that contribute to the formation of skin cancer still need to be sorted out. And scientists must still figure out how best to formulate sunscreens to provide effective protection against these wavelengths. Scientists lack a simple measure of UVA's impact on the skin, and that makes it difficult to determine how much UVA protection a sunscreen provides.

  • BlindedByScience
    BlindedByScience Member Posts: 314
    edited January 2008

    And here's more from the Mayo Clinic:

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sunscreen/SN00048 

    Sunscreen: New UVA ratings for better sun protection


    Sunscreen must now include ultraviolet A ratings in addition to the SPF number.
    Find out what these changes mean for sunscreen labels.

    When buying sunscreen, you've likely relied on the sun protection factor (SPF) to help you choose a product. The SPF number is a measurement of the amount of ultraviolet B (UVB) protection - the higher the number, the greater the protection provided by the sunscreen.

    In a new ruling, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has created another tool to help you compare products. Sunscreen labels now must include a four-star ultraviolet A (UVA) rating and description.

    With more information on labels, you can better judge the level of protection of various sunscreen products and select the best sunscreen for your needs.


    Why are the sunscreen labels changing?

    Up until now, no common rating or testing system existed for UVA protection. Sunscreen manufacturers could claim UVA protection based on their own tests and not a standard testing protocol. This resulted in confusing or even misleading claims on sunscreen products.

    To remedy this, the FDA created a new UVA testing system for all sunscreen products to better define and clarify sunscreen labels. The UVA tests measure how well the sunscreen prevents darkening or tanning of the skin and how well the sunscreen blocks UVA rays. Results are ranked from low to highest protection.

    Like the SPF tests, the UVA rating system offers a standard, validated method for measuring sun protection. This information, now clearly marked on sunscreen products, helps you easily compare UVA protection among various sunscreens. Armed with better information, you can choose a sunscreen with the most effective sun protection.

  • Rosemary44
    Rosemary44 Member Posts: 2,660
    edited January 2008

    So, if we get too high a spf rating, then would we be allowing the right amount of rays in that allows vitamin D to be absorbed?

    It's my face that I'm trying to protect, but they say we should have our face in the sun besides other body parts to get the D.  I wish they'd give us the right number spf to use so I don't have to figure it out.   Thanks again Kris.

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