In Favor of Feminism: Share Your Views
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Serenity,
That is a lovely idea. Perhaps someday they can return and help their country. I live near Fremont, CA which is often called Little Kabul. This is a community whose roots go back more than 30 years to refugee resettlement after the Russian invasion. Most of their children and grandchildren have never seen their parents home land. So yes, they have flourished outside the restrictions of traditional Afghan society. Not many I know would be willing to go back now but perhaps a newer generation of refugees will.
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exbrnxgrl, I understand that our western view of feminism is not relevant to discussions about Afghanistan. I understand that the women who are terrified of losing what they gained are the minority of women within the country. While I am concerned about the loss of freedoms and the possibility that education and opportunity might be denied to girls and women, I am currently much more concerned that the minority who have benefitted will not just lose their gains, but may lose their lives. My definition of feminism with regard to Afghanistan is that women should not be murdered because of their beliefs or because they have been educated.
I also appreciate that "if you are worried that 50% of your children will die by age 5, or that you can't feed those who survive, education and equality for women is not at the top of your to do list" however to my understanding there are numerous examples around the world that show that when women are given opportunity, the whole society benefits and the standard of living improves for all. It makes sense. If 100% of adults are given the opportunity to work and to go out into the world to support the family, the results obviously will be more favorable than if only 50% of adults are given that opportunity. That's as far as I go with regard to "feminism" when it comes to Afghanistan and other similar countries.
The situation there now for girls and women horrifies me.
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“ however to my understanding there are numerous examples around the world that show that when women are given opportunity, the whole society benefits and the standard of living improves for all. It makes sense. If 100% of adults are given the opportunity to work and to go out into the world to support the family, the results obviously will be more favorable than if only 50% of adults are given that opportunity.“
That is absolutely correct! From my POV, unfortunately, this has to be done in baby steps. Change comes incredibly slowly to isolated tribal societies. I am certainly not arguing against freedoms and education for women but solving grinding poverty, high child mortality and everything that goes with it has to come first. And it has to happen, if foreign agencies are involved, with the utmost consideration for a cultural that is almost unimaginable to most of us. Sadly, whether for men or women, education has never been a high priority for the country as a whole and the low literacy rate speaks to that.
I was the English teacher for Ariana Afghan Airlines. I taught a class to mechanics at the airport as they owned three Boeing aircraft at the time and the manuals are in English. The first time I gave a test, several of the students were freely sharing answers. When I asked them to work on their own they couldn’t understand why. Turns out, they didn’t really view it as cheating. They were simply helping friends which was much more important to them than the integrity of the test. I taught the flight attendants as well and they pretty much did the same thing. This is just a mild illustration of how differently two cultures view the same situation. Despite some of them having terrible English they were repairing aircraft and were responsible for in flight safety. Is it any wonder that they are not allowed to operate in any EU country? When I was there they flew to London and Frankfurt.
Bottom line for me? You can’t educate or help educate people whose children routinely die before age five, who have little food or clean water (a majority of childhood deaths are caused by water borne illnesses) and have to fight just to survive. When that is solved, or perhaps while it’s being solved, then we can talk education. I love that country dearly but I am very clear eyed about reality there and it’s far more complicated than most people think. -
exbrnxgrl, I hope that girls in Afghanistan continue to be allowed to go to school. But that wasn't my point. I'm talking about survival. I hope that those already educated, or those trying to go to school, aren't tortured, kidnapped into slavery, or murdered. I don't want female teachers and business leaders to be murdered. I don't want female journalists (or any journalists) to be murdered. There is nothing complicated about that.
And when I mentioned women being "given the opportunity to work and to go out into the world to support the family", I wasn't going so far as to suggest educating girls (much as I hope that it happens/continues, at the appropriate pace for that society). I was merely saying that I hope that women be allowed to leave their homes without men in support of their families without risk of being beaten or murdered.
"One morning in the summer of 1999, Shukriya Barakzai woke up feeling dizzy and feverish. According to the Taliban's rules, she needed a Maharram, a male guardian, in order to leave home to visit the doctor. Her husband was at work, and she had no sons. So she shaved her 2-year-old daughter's head, dressed her in boys' clothing to pass her off as a guardian, and slipped on a burka. Its blue folds hid her fingertips, painted red in violation of the Taliban's ban on nail polish. She asked her neighbor, another woman, to walk with her to the doctor in central Kabul. Around 4:30 p.m. they left the doctor's office with a prescription. They were heading toward the pharmacy when a truckload of Taliban militants from the Ministry for the Propagation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice pulled up beside them. The men regularly drove around Kabul in pickup trucks, looking for Afghans to publicly shame and punish for violating their moral code.
The men jumped out of the truck and started whipping Barakzai with a rubber cable until she fell over, then continued whipping her. When they finished, she stood up, crying. She was shocked and humiliated. She had never been beaten before." THE TALIBAN'S RETURN IS CATASTROPHIC FOR WOMEN https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/08/the-talibans-return-is-awful-for-women-in-afghanistan/619765/
I was a feminist in the 1970s. I started reading Ms. magazine from it's first edition. My career was in business, and in the early years, I was often the only female manager in the department. I've dealt with my share of @$#0\€$. I know how difficult it was for women, and I have seen so much progress. More is necessary, of course, but my frustration with Western feminism of late is that too much time is spent focused on things that, in the scheme of things, are not all that important. Meanwhile, in much of the world, women remain chattel, subject to the whims of their fathers, brothers, and husbands (and the women who buy into their patriarchal system).My apologies if I'm taking this thread off track.
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You apologize? No my dear beesie, I should. My decades old passion for Afghanistan always gets the better of me. Yes, I have no doubt that the Taliban will bring violence and terror to anyone they perceive as western or breaking the rules of their extreme version of Islam. The story of Ms. Barakzai will likely be repeated far too many times.
I saw one tiny glimmer of hope on the news today. This day, August 19 is Afghan Independence Day (British war). This was a big holiday. I remember going to a fair at the Jashun Grounds in Kabul. Today there was a small group of demonstrators waving the Afghan flag (not the Taliban flag) in Kabul. They were soon dispersed by the Taliban but it heartened me to see Afghans taking up the mantle of resistance. I have no idea how far this movement will get but Afghans themselves must save their own country. History has shown that foreigners simply can’t, for hundreds of reasons, but I hope Afghans can. I realize how pessimistic that sounds and I hate that I feel that way but I’ve been a student of that country since that July day in 1977 when I stepped off the plane in Kabul. As a side note, the airport is totally unrecognizable to me. What a mess
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As I shared on this forum's liberal thread, I am uneducated when it comes to the war in Afghanistan, so I do not think it is something I should offer much comment on. I'm not sure why the U.S. withdrawal had to happen exactly now in the midst of the worldwide pandemic. It seems to have added additional turmoil to our already unsettled world. But I have no insight into any of it other than to know there are lessons for the U.S. to be learned from our involvement there.
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And I have been compulsively watching news coverage from Kabul and am depressed. I started watched crime shows because even those were less depressing. Sometimes I think of my little house in Kabul and wonder if it’s still there.
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10 girls on Afghanistan's robotics team rescued
The team, a group of girls ages 16-18 pursuing their love of engineering and robotics, safely arrived in Doha, Qatar, days after Kabul fell to the Taliban.
Ten girls from Afghanistan's girls robotics team have been rescued out of Afghanistan.
NBC News"Several members of the girls Afghan robotics team have safely arrived in Doha, Qatar, from Kabul, Afghanistan," a statement from the Digital Citizen Fund and Qatar Ministry of Foreign Affairs said of the Afghan Girls Robotic Team.
The team, which consists of a group of girls ages 16-18 who have overcome hardship to pursue their love of engineering and robotics in Afghanistan, safely arrived in Doha, Qatar, days after Kabul fell to the Taliban.
"The Digital Citizen Fund (DCF), the team's parent organization, is deeply grateful to the government of Qatar for their outstanding support, which included not only expediting the visa process but sending a plane after outbound flights from Afghanistan were repeatedly canceled," the DCF said in a statement.
Elizabeth Schaeffer Brown, a board member on the DCF, said that she and the DCF founder had been working with Qatar since early August when it became clear that the Taliban would be overthrowing the government.
"The flight out of Kabul was only at the very end of a journey in which safety was always a concern," she said.
"Ultimately the girls 'rescued' themselves. If it were not for their hard work and courage to pursue an education, which brought them in contact with the world, they would still be trapped. We need to continue to support them and others like them," she said. Unfortunately, several members of the team remain in Afghanistan. DCF is working with Qatar to arrange transportation for the remaining members and their aides.
When Kabul fell, the robotics team was on the mind of many.
Allyson Reneau, a mom of 11 who graduated from Harvard in 2016 with a masters in international relations and U.S. space policy, could not stop thinking about the girls when the Taliban began to take over the country.
Reneau, 60, first met the girls through her work on the board of directors for Explore Mars, when the girls attended the 2019 Human to Mars conference. Reneau has kept in touch with the girls over the years, and as reports of a Taliban takeover grew, she had an overwhelming feeling the team of girls might be in danger.
"I remembered my former roommate in D.C. a couple of years ago was transferred to Qatar," Reneau explained. "She said she worked in the U.S. Embassy in Qatar... she was sure her boss would approve helping the girls."
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From PBS's “Brief but Spectacular" series, a short 4 minute video titled
“A geologist's Brief But Spectacular take on calling out harassment and sexism in science."(The full story is discussed in greater detail by the documentary "Picture a Scientist".)
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I can't find it now, but I read an essay positing that many of the ancient Venus figures may actually be self-portraits by women. The large breasts and tapering feet are similar to what a woman sees as she looks at her body directly from above. Oh wait! I found it!
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Miriandra: thanks for the reference. Comedian Hannah Gatsby noted that the woman in the following image was on the Paleo diet. Not quite the 2021 goal of Paleo diet (LOL) I also went down the rabbit hole reading the piece you included. There are so many tangents to explore, I think my Monday's activities are set while I'm waiting for some repair folks to arrive.
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Miriandra, that’s an interesting article full of artist names mostly of whom I’d never heard of before. Like the great composers who are elevated are all men because women were deemed less than in innumerable ways, female artists and their works have been summarily disregarded, their accomplishments trivialized, minimized, invisible-ized.
The idea that the Venus figure could be a woman’s self-portrait is a very real and logical possibility. Did I read that right, that this sculpture is only 2 1/2 inches in height? Rather incredible that something that size it was even found!
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"The idea that the Venus figure could be a woman's self-portrait is a very real and logical possibility. Did I read that right, that this sculpture is only 2 1/2 inches in height? Rather incredible that something that size it was even found!"
DivineMrsM, yes, it's small. About the size of a whittled figure, which also speaks to it being a piece of personal expression rather than having religious significance. An item for active worship is typically large, so a group can revere it together. Personal worship items are usually protective charms, which are very small. At 2 1/2 inches, it's in between; but of a good size to comfortably hold in a female hand and say, "This is me."
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the lesbian meme. The problem is and always has been men's inability to control themselves and their parents absolving them from responsibility.
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The Venus figure reminded me of a book I read in a philosophy of religion course I took in college, great book that really made me think: When God Was a Woman
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Dear Texas:
Screw you.
I cannot WAIT for the lawsuits against anti-vaxxers to start, based on this new anti-abortion law.
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SummerA, I followed the link to the God book on Amazon. Even tho it was written in 1978, it has a four and a half star rating from 748 reviews. It appears to be a book I am interested in reading, so I will put it on my list. Here’s the description:
“How did the shift from matriarchy to patriarchy come about? In fascinating detail, Merlin Stone tells us the story of the Goddess who reigned supreme in the Near and Middle East. Under her reign, societal roles differed markedly from those in patriarchal Judeo-Christian cultures: women bought and sold property, traded in the marketplace, and inherited title and land from their mothers. Documenting the wholesale rewriting of myth and religious dogmas, Merlin Stone describes an ancient conspiracy in which the Goddess was reimagined as a wanton, depraved figure, a characterization confirmed and perpetuated by one of modern culture's best-known legends??―??that of the fall of Adam and Eve. Insightful and thought-provoking, this is essential reading for anyone interested in the origin of current gender roles and in rediscovering women's power.“
Alice, I am surrounded by so many women punching themselves in the face. Society has conditioned them from birth to assume the mantle of nurturing mother as the pinnacle of their worth.
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I like those memes on Adam and Eve.
Tangentially related to this thread: I was in surgery yesterday (reconstruction), and realized when they wheeled me in that this time my ENTIRE TEAM was female-presenting. And for just a second before the anesthesia kicked in, I thought, "This is nice!" And afterwards, I can't help but feel like we've made progress. Not all the progress we need, not as quickly as would be good, but having an all-female surgical team is not something we would have seen when I was born.
And then I think about Texas and how insurance will cover anything I need/want now with my breasts -- because yay, boobies! men love boobs! --, but God forbid I get raped and impregnated. Then, somehow, depending on what state I live in, my ability to decide what is right or best for my health and my body is at minimum, questioned, and at worst, superseded by people with the misguided belief that my life is worth less than cells I did not put in my body and do not want there, that because some man was a psycho and raped me, his sperm and my egg and the little conglomeration of cells they form is worth more than my life or the life of the child who may result from that pregnancy.
*sigh*
But yay, female surgical teams?
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saltmarsh, what a thought provoking post. The reality of an all female surgical team is definitely progress. I recently read that more and more women are going to female doctors, that they are being preferred over men.
You use great words to explain how abominable the new Texas abortion law is. My apologies to anyone who lives there, but I wouldn’t even want to go there to vacation these days.
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Divine, yeah, this law sucks but I do think the fight over it will lead it it being overturned. Beyond the ban itself, it seems almost too complicated to prosecute.
I will say though that Texas has a lot going for it, just not so much in the big cities.
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Read this with my morning coffee:
Who are we to judge the Taliban when governments in our own country can take control of a woman's body? A world apart from Afghanistan, the United States must take a good look at itself and ask the hard question: Are we so different when it comes to how we treat women and girls?
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