CBT for hotflashes and night sweats? How sad..

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AliceKo
AliceKo Member Posts: 151

I have noticed that breastcancer.org has posted a new research study how online cognitive behavioral therapy helps reduce nightsweats and hotflashes.

https://www.breastcancer.org/research-news/online-...

While I think that all research results need to be reported, I am dumbfounded that CBT is being studied for this. I am a therapist and CBT is one of the therapies I use. CBT is based on the premise that people experience a lot of irrational and negative thoughts on every day basis and we are negatively affected by them and if we are able to identify them and change them, we can change how people feel and act. I am pretty sure that the hot flashes and night sweats are not in your heads (so it is rational), they are surely very real to me ( and the evidence that a CBT clinician would require is that I am all wet when I wake up at night).

So how could that be helpful? I am not concerned about my thoughts and feelings about waking up wet. I need to sleep through the night and be dry. how can thoughts and feelings change a physical reaction such as night sweats? Unbelievable...

Wishing all of us suffering from night sweats and hot flashes that we find something that works for us and that we all be healthy



Comments

  • leftduetostupidmods
    leftduetostupidmods Member Posts: 620
    edited February 2019

    Reminds me of the time when they sent me to mandatory "pain counseling" because , of course, the pain from having pretty much non-existent discs on 6 levels in my cervical spine plus constricted spine cord from multiple bone spurs might have all been in my head. Not in my neck.

  • MelissaDallas
    MelissaDallas Member Posts: 7,268
    edited February 2019

    Oh, I'm SURE that my aunt, whose hot flashes/night sweats were so severe she soaked and had to get up and change the wet bed sheets and her nightclothes during the night, would have benefitted from CBT for it. I'm sure it would have made up for her lack of sleep...not...oh by the way, she manages the doctor's office for her brother, the psychiatrist...

  • kber
    kber Member Posts: 394
    edited February 2019

    Huh, when you put it that way, it's almost kinda insulting.  Like being treated for "hysteria" or some other lady mental issue.  Especially against the backdrop of women having a harder time getting their physical issues taken seriously by the medical community (see women and heart attacks).

  • Wigging2000
    Wigging2000 Member Posts: 295
    edited February 2019

    I completely agree and thought the exact same thing when I read this. CBT for a physical symptom caused by a drug????


  • Racy
    Racy Member Posts: 2,651
    edited February 2019

    have you tried Efexor?

  • PurpleCat
    PurpleCat Member Posts: 358
    edited March 2019

    I'll play devil's advocate on this, with the disclaimer that my own side effects have been mild so far. I don't think CBT is intended to make the hot flashes go away, but to help us cope with them enough to stay on the prescription. We're taking these meds because the alternatives is a high risk of recurrence and/or early death. If during a hot flash I can train my thoughts to go in the direction of "This unpleasantness is a sign that the medicine I am taking to prevent cancer is indeed having an effect on my body, and that's a good thing" instead of "this is intolerable and I'd rather take the risk of having cancer again than live with these hot flashes" we're less likely to give up our lifesaving medicine. Just like the meds themselves, CBT probably doesn't work for everyone, but if it can keep someone for whom tamoxifen is likely to be effective from giving up on it, it is a lifesaver for that person.

  • HarleyB
    HarleyB Member Posts: 6
    edited March 2019

    I agree Purple Cat!

    For me CBT works exactly that way. When I have a hot flush my reaction is - YES! It's working! Of course it's still inconvenient when I'm about to give a presentation or all dressed up in an expensive restaurant or whatever. But accepting that the reaction (hot flush) is evidence that the drug is working and my risk of recurrence should be lower is a great feeling.

    I know for me, my hot flushes and night sweats seemed much worse when I hated them and I was stressed about having them. Once I changed my thoughts they became much easier to deal with. I don't think CBT works for everyone and for those with severe symptoms it would be best used in combination with with other treatment.

    What I think is reallysad is when people have side effects that stop them from taking medication that could improve their chance of survival. IMO anything that helps people stay on their treatment is good.


  • LoveFromPhilly
    LoveFromPhilly Member Posts: 1,308
    edited March 2019

    I get what the original poster is saying - and can completely understand how it could be taken as an insult, especially with the fact of women being hysterical and not being taken as seriously by the medical community for our symptoms and often being written off as "crazy."

    My reaction when I read that BCO article was, "Huh! Interesting! I wonder how the study was conducted? I wonder what the sample size group was?" And I read more and saw these answers and then my thoughts went to, "Hmm - well I can say for certain for myself that thanks to Lexapro, my hot flashes have calmed down tremendously, so I can definitely see that there is a connection (for me) to anxiety and hot flashes. So perhaps, CBT would help calm some down anxiety for some women and therefore improve hot flashes."

    One thing I know for certain is that the medical world DOES NOT UNDERSTAND fully why hot flashes happen. This to me is very disturbing being that half the world is made up of women and probably a huge percentage of women will experience hot flashes in their lives. As far as I could find, the medical world knows there is some sort of correlation between surges of luteinizing hormone and our nervous system releasing stress hormones such as epinephrine and norepinephrine...hence the waves of anxiety that come with a hot flash. So what is coming first? The anxiety or the hot flash? And if we can calm the anxiety, perhaps we can calm the hot flash.

    Perhaps this is a good option for those who are against trying an SSRI or other pharmaceutical medication for off label purposes such as taming hot flashes?

  • Salamandra
    Salamandra Member Posts: 1,444
    edited March 2019

    Thank you to AliceKo for starting this and to everyone who has contributed a really interesting and useful range of perspectives.

    On the one hand, I agree that we are far from understanding both hot flashes (because women's health is so drastically understudied and not taken seriously) and the mental/psychological component of physical experiences. On the other hand, I hate how the answer seems always to be to blame things on women's heads, and put the burden on individuals to 'cure' ourselves of drug side effects. That's kind of crazy.

  • Meow13
    Meow13 Member Posts: 4,859
    edited March 2019

    I was taking generic paxil and it seemed to work on hot flashes.

  • AliceKo
    AliceKo Member Posts: 151
    edited March 2019

    Purplecat, I appreciate your thoughts and comments. When I wake up at night completely wet, 3 times a night and I know that I will need to get up at 7 and drive and work - my thoughts go like this - "I just need to sleep through the night". Just wet and very tired. No ability to think about the symptoms, ruminate or whatever. Exhausted to the point of being unable to think, ruminate, have feelings or anxiety or whatever. I am sure some women have the energy to think, ruminate, be anxious about the nightsweats, then anything will work - including a placebo (which has no side effects). Btw, lack of sleep is major factor in weakening of the immune system and indirectly causing people to get sick, including cancer.

  • AliceKo
    AliceKo Member Posts: 151
    edited March 2019

    Just if you are wondering, I am off tamoxifen for now, but I need to be for 5 years. For those of you who want me to take some medication, accupuncture has worked 100% in the past - the only serious side effect that I noticed was 75$ charge per session and I need it at least every other week

  • gb2115
    gb2115 Member Posts: 1,894
    edited March 2019

    Ok....so I have anxiety and have received instruction in CBT. I also get hot flashes. There are times when the hot flash just happens. I don't think CBT would help that. but I do notice if I start to feel panicky about something, I tend to get a hot flash at the same time. So I believe that mental stress can precipitate hot flashes, but hot flashes are not necessarily precipitated by cognitive issues.

  • Michelle_in_cornland
    Michelle_in_cornland Member Posts: 1,689
    edited March 2019

    Marijuana is going to be legal for recreational purposes in our state. It is already legal for medical use. I am sure women will try that, to diminish their med side effects. I can't stand weed, but it may be useful for someone else.

  • PurpleCat
    PurpleCat Member Posts: 358
    edited March 2019

    Alice, that sounds absolutely miserable, and I didn't mean to imply that better solutions aren't needed. I hope one is found for you very soon.

  • LoveFromPhilly
    LoveFromPhilly Member Posts: 1,308
    edited March 2019

    I have a medical marijuana card and honestly, marijuana does not calm my hot flashes. I tend to be on the more anxious end of the spectrum, and one of marijuana’s most known side effects is anxiety, paranoia and can cause panic attacks.

    I have spoke with my palliative care oncology doctor and the medical cannabis pharmacist about my anxiety and we did work out a way for me to use medical cannabis that would be the least anxiety inducing. So far it’s been pretty good! I use it for nausea and pain from the aromatase inhibitors. But I don’t think 🤔 it’s calming my hot flashes, although Lexapro CERTAINLY has.

    I fought taking an antidepressant for a long time and now that I am on Lexapro I am kicking myself for not starting sooner!!

    Also agree with the acupuncture - can help!!

    There are programs available in different areas that offer free acupuncture services to people with BC. I know about 3 organizations in Philly where I live. Folks wanting to use acupuncture for a lower price and/or possibly for free may want to check with your oncology social worker (if that exists in your area) about what programs are available.

    Having BC sucks but there’s many perks to it too no pun intensse

  • AliceKo
    AliceKo Member Posts: 151
    edited March 2019

    LovefromPhilly, if someone has depression and some anxiety - lexapro is a good choice and why wouldn't someone get depressed when they have cancer? No problem. I noticed it is used more for older patients something 60 & +. The medication that I wanted to take is Brintellix, besides working as an anti-depressant it helps increase mental clarity (so lifting chemo fog), nobody gains weight on it - just the opposite people lose some weight. I tried to take it even though i was so nauseous and could not sleep, for weeks and weeks, even took antinausea medication and then the prescriber said to me that I need to stop torturing myself

  • Salamandra
    Salamandra Member Posts: 1,444
    edited March 2019

    ! Hi Aliceko,

    I'm 39 and changed from Wellbutrin to Lexapro when I started tamoxifen. It is working well for me, but I am curious about Brintellix now. I can't tell from your post, it sounds like you tried to take it but the brintellix made you nauseous? Was it very expensive? Did your insurance cover it?

  • Mariya25
    Mariya25 Member Posts: 2
    edited April 2019

    Grass care... my weeds have grown all over the garden, which means that it's time to mow the grass, but since I'm a lazy person, I just bought miracle weed money once again . In order for the effect of weed remedies to be maximally strong, I always dilute more than what is written in the instructions, so I will be sure of a good result! It now remains to wait for the grass to appear there as soon as I fill it again.

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