Worried That Inflammation Is Enabling Metastasis

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I just got the results of my latest ANA (antinuclear antibody) blood test, and I'm very concerned. Shortly before I was diagnosed in 2016 with a small, grade 3, estrogen-receptive tumor, my ANA titer was 1:160, which is slightly worrisome. It was 1:320 last year, and now it's 1:640, and that's frightening to me - because of the role inflammation plays in metastasis. Since surgery and radiation, I've been taking Arimidex. I eat very well, try to stick to an anti-inflammatory diet, and take a turkey tail capsule each day. According to several clinical studies I've read, an abnormal ANA is associated with a poor BC prognosis. So far my medical oncologist has refused to discuss this with me. Anyone have advice or a similar experience? I know that many people are unaware of the ANA test. My primary care doctor starting including it in my blood-work decades ago, when I had a non-malignant inflammatory condition.

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  • DATNY
    DATNY Member Posts: 358
    edited April 2018

    I know what literature say and I disagree. I think it is the other way around. I think inflammation is a sign the body mounts a serious fight against something. Could be that it detected cancer cells from previous cancer or something new.

    I had autoimmune thyroid disease (Hashimoto) and systemic inflammation for 10 years before my cancer diagnosis. I had elevated ANA among others. Tried everything to keep it under control but couldn't. Curiously, the disease did not progress -usually ends up with thyroid nodules given enough time and often thyroid cancer.

    And then I discovered the breast cancer. Reading the literature I found that breast cancer cells could produce a mutated thyroid peroxidase, the protein against which I have antibodies. Other autoimmune disease (scleroderma) has been linked to faulty proteins produced by cancer cells. It also make sense to me now why chemotherapy often works to keep under control an autoimmune diseases, a fact I knew for long time, but never linked it to a possible underlying cancer.

    While inflammtion is a sign that something is going on, the final outcome is harder to predict. The body might be successful to clear it up, or might need external help.





  • SummerAngel
    SummerAngel Member Posts: 1,006
    edited April 2018

    I've never heard or read that elevated ANA is associated with poor BC prognosis. I have mixed connective tissue disease and my ANA has been sitting at 1:320 or 1:640 for years - before and after my diagnosis. Do you have links I could read?

  • bluepearl
    bluepearl Member Posts: 961
    edited April 2018

    2018 article "Patient education: Antinuclear antibodies (ANA) (Beyond the Basics)" indicates a rise can be caused by cancer but RARELY. The majority is caused, as you know, by an autoimmune disorder. C-reative protein is another matter and can be lowered by lifestyle changes. In postmenopausal women, elevation can be a risk and is often associated with obesity, which is probably why being overweight is a risk factor. Belly fat, in particular, acts like a large pro-inflammatory organ. Diets high in processed foods increase C-reactive protein....processed foods also linked to cancer risk.....diabetes as well.....and stress......the best anti-inflammatory diet is the mediterranean; next comes exercise and then some sort of stress reducing activity...ie....mindful meditation. I am not a doctor but just read the things...and I could be wrong. BTW...some meds can increase levels of ANA.

  • Mstein1970
    Mstein1970 Member Posts: 48
    edited April 2018

    More regarding antibodies related to cancer and those related to autoimmune disorders:

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/...

    Excerpt:

    2.3. Inflammation

    Autoimmune responses, such as the production of autoantibodies, may be part of a chronic inflammatory response toward cancer cells and are associated with an array of immunological pathways, including the release of several cytokines discussed in later sections. Inflammation may be maintained throughout the duration of the cancer and increases the permeability of the nearby vasculature, thereby enabling easier access of immune cells to the site of the malignancy [30].


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC47798...

    Excerpt:

    In both cancer and autoimmune diseases an aberrant activation of the immune/inflammatory response leads to chronic diseases and accumulation of tissue damage. However, from an immunological standpoint, these two families of diseases are fundamentally different and even represent two opposite ways in which the immune system can go wrong. In cancer, the tumor cells are mostly unrecognized as antigens because a dominant anti-inflammatory response driven by the tumor cells suppresses any antitumoral immune response and promotes tumor progression and dissemination (immunosuppression). In fact, tumors are called wounds that do not heal, because the tumor hijacks the wound healing machinery and uses it to promote itself [, ]. In contrast, in autoimmune diseases, self-tolerance is broken and the inflammatory response is activated in excess against the host tissue cells, which express autoantigens that are misrecognized and attacked by the immune system, gradually leading to permanent tissue damage.


    I have an appointment to see a rheumatologist soon, but I saw one shortly before my BC diagnosis, because of my abnormal ANA. He ordered a slew of blood tests, and aside from a briefly high sed rate, all of those other rheumatological tests came back normal.

  • DATNY
    DATNY Member Posts: 358
    edited April 2018

    To add more specifics to my previous post, here is a link to the Science paper linking scleroderma to multiple types of cancer: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/343/6167/152

  • DATNY
    DATNY Member Posts: 358
    edited April 2018

    What causes an autoimmune response? It does not come out of thin air. It has to be a faulty structure (most likely protein, produced by a benign or malign tumor) that the body recognizes it. Multiple autoimmune diseases are treated with chemotherapy: Lupus, scleroderma, rheumatoid arthritis. Having an autoimmune disease significantly increases the risk of developing cancer. It all tights up.

  • SummerAngel
    SummerAngel Member Posts: 1,006
    edited April 2018

    Most of the articles are discussing inflammation in general, not ANA levels specifically. I would want to see research that specifically links elevated ANA levels with breast cancer recurrence.

  • Mstein1970
    Mstein1970 Member Posts: 48
    edited April 2018

    From this study, which is mostly about non-Hodgkin's lymphoma:

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1046/j....

    The majority of the patients with positive ANA or cytoplasmic aAbs did not display autoimmune clinical symptoms, demonstrating the lack of strict correlation between the presence of such aAbs and autoimmune symptoms or disease. The prognostic significance of the frequency of ANA in NHL has also been evaluated, as it was demonstrated that the presence of such aAbs in the serum of patients with breast cancer was associated with higher risk of recurrence or metastases in a follow-up of 2 years (Wasserman et al, 1975).


    And the summary presented this link to the 43-year-old Wasserman study:

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Autoantibodie...

    Sera from a hundred patients with operable carcinoma of the breast and seventy-five age-
    matched controls were examined for antinuclear, smooth muscle, glomerular and
    mitochondrial antibodies by indirect immunofluorescence technique. Antinuclear and
    smooth muscle antibodies were found to be more frequent in cancer patients than in
    controls. The incidence of autoantibodies at the time the diagnosis was established was
    higher in patients who developed local recurrences or distant metastases within 2 years …

  • Mstein1970
    Mstein1970 Member Posts: 48
    edited April 2018

    DATNY, I agree with what you say here:"While inflammation is a sign that something is going on, the final outcome is harder to predict. The body might be successful to clear it up, or might need external help."

    But my concern is that the inflammatory response to "clear it" often does the opposite -- creating conditions for angiogenesis and metastasis. I don't know if you've heard about the latest book by Barbara Ehrenreich, the social critic and breast cancer survivor. She also has a PhD in cellular biology, and her new book upends traditional ideas about the "rationality" of the immune system. This is from a review in The Atlantic:

    "What really gets her rethinking her scientific beliefs is the evolving story of the macrophage—the specialized white blood cell that she always thought of as her good shepherd "through the valley of the shadow of death."

    Macrophages have traditionally been understood as one of our crucial first-line defenses against disease. They are found throughout our body—in our bones, brain, lymph nodes, lungs, and breasts—and circulate in our blood. They look like the amoebas we learned about in high school, those slippery, one-celled, independent creatures that move by stretching out and contracting, and eat by wrapping themselves around their prey, invaginating and absorbing it. The usual story went like this: Whenever macrophages find threats to our well-being in our midst—bacteria, viruses, fungi, or cancer cells—they kill them and eat them by engulfing and absorbing them. Ehrenreich assumed that keeping her immune system—and valiant macrophages—strong through exercise, diet, and positive thoughts was the key to not getting sick, not getting cancer, not getting old.

    But research around the turn of the millennium suggested a different view. Macrophages do not always kill our cancer cells; sometimes they even help them grow and spread. They escort certain cancer cells through the tight walls of our blood vessels, and protect them as they circulate in our bloodstream, looking for a congenial new home. When such a site is found—in a bone or breast, liver or lung—macrophages then support those cancer cells as they mature into the metastases that will go on to kill us.

    Scientists are now discovering that the macrophage is as much wolf as shepherd in other diseases as well. It may play a role in auto-immune disorders, and even in the usual afflictions of aging—heart attacks, strokes, arthritis. We thought we knew the causes of those (cholesterol, cigarettes, inactivity) and therefore the recourse (diet, abstinence, exercise); but now it appears that inflammation, caused in large part by our macrophages, may be a trigger."

  • DATNY
    DATNY Member Posts: 358
    edited May 2018

    mstein, thank you for bringing this work to my attention, I will go through it. However, I did know about the connection between inflammation and cancer, although I have never looked over the details. Having an autoimmune thyroid disease, I was told this increases my risk of thyroid cancer. So for 10 years or so I did everything in my power to reduce the inflammation without much success. My focus was on external factors, diet especially, due to the circulating theories about autoimmunity, biological mimicry, gut permeability and so on.

    It was only after I got the cancer diagnosis that I come over the opposite hypothesis, that cancer could drive the autoimmune response. The paper was published in Science in 2014, so it is still quite recent that this idea was articulated loudly. Since then, I found another work from U Penn where they report treating a dangerous autoimmune disease, encephalitis, by removing ovaries found to have a benign tumor in two patients, while on the third they removed the ovaries without any sign of growth, but later it was found to have microscopic benign tumors. Inspecting the protein atlas, one could see that the protein the patients had antibodies against was produced mainly by brain, but also in small quantities by female reproductive tissues.

    And finally, I could see a major improvement in my autoimmune symptoms after cancer treatment. I am currently reducing the medication, after 10 years of being on it. In fact, my doctor suggested to try stopping it, but I don't dare to do that yet.

    Now we'll see if this will last. I think with cancers, cells always remain behind and the autoimmune response continue. I guess that's why most people with autoimmune disease are not cured after cancer treatment, although they do often see a remission of the disease attributed to the decrease in the wbc levels.

  • Mstein1970
    Mstein1970 Member Posts: 48
    edited May 2018

    I just wish oncologists would be more willing to discuss this issue with patients like me. I realize there is still little understanding about the problem, and no idea of what to do about it -- but as more researchers publish relevant studies, isn't it time, it's time for clinicians to respectfully acknowledge/address patients' concerns?

  • DATNY
    DATNY Member Posts: 358
    edited May 2018

    I could not agree more. I feel that doctors are frozen in time and "space" (their own narrow focus). Understanding of the human body and diseases advances at an accelerating speed, but it seems it takes decades until most agree with on a discovery, and more decades until the knowledge is used in clinical setting.

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