To mix or not to mix: Do rads "mess-up" an all-natural protocol?

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Alital82
Alital82 Member Posts: 9
edited March 2018 in Radiation Therapy - Before, During, and After

Hi All,

My first-post. 35 yr. old, diagnosed last yr. with ductal carcinoma with small intraductal component. Highly ER+. I am going off the AI because that wasn't my choice, but crumbled under pressure from everyone: family, friends, and especially onc and parents. ANYWAY, after doing further research I am concerned that rads may lower my immune system and counteract all that I do to help my body fight cancer without hormone therapy. UCLA published a study about rads multiplying cancer stem cells through a resistance reaction. The only way I can get an idea is if anyone else took the choice of no hormone therapy or got off it early AND did rads or did anyone do neither? And how did it go? And especially if you did rads and no hormone but got recurrence, do you feel like the radiation was a bad idea in hindsight?

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  • Alital82
    Alital82 Member Posts: 9
    edited March 2018

    By the way, am scheduled to get my rads in 1 week.

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  • gb2115
    gb2115 Member Posts: 1,894
    edited March 2018

    How long ago was your surgery? Did you have a lumpectomy or mastectomy?

    It looks like UCLA as a result of the study is not recommending people avoid radiation because of what they found. I think the statistical risk of local (in the breast) recurrence after radiation is pretty low--like in the few % if I remember correctly. I did have radiation because I had a lumpectomy (and my recurrence risk without radiation was crazy high), but my biggest fear is metastatic recurrence if some of those cells escaped before I was diagnosed and are hiding out. My oncologist even said that's the biggest risk. So that's where the hormone therapy comes into play, to keep those rogue cells at bay for as long as possible, by starving them by blocking hormone receptors.

    I don't know about anything about all-natural protocols. You might try posting in the alternative therapy board if no one else jumps on here!

    Stay well!

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  • Alital82
    Alital82 Member Posts: 9
    edited March 2018

    hi gb2115,

    I got my tumor removed for Christmas and my nipple was saved by a hair. It was a quadrantectomy.

    Are you premenopause, too?

    Yeah, isn’t that funny how the UCLA researchers had clear results about radiation causing cancer stem cell increase and then they say - without justifying the advice - just keep doing it, though. LOL??

    I am probably going to go through with rads but I have a bad feeling about it...

    My onc told me it reduces my chNce of local recurrence by like 10%.

    My knowledge of recurrence is that we all have a 50% chance of it being either locoregional recurrence or metastasis. It’s 50%/50%. Not that that’s reassuring ..

    Lurking here before and on other forums it seemed that people that did rads and then no anti-hormone may or may not do than those who skipped both and delved into natural stuff. Wanted to hear some experiences. May or may not be relevant for me. Everyone’s body is different.

    AIs are not supposed to be given to young women: they anihilate your estrogen. But that’s what my onc wants for me: aggressive.

    I think...what you repress ...comes back stronger. But i’m Not an oncologist.

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  • Georgia1
    Georgia1 Member Posts: 1,321
    edited March 2018

    Hi there. I am more of a typical BC patient so not sure if this is helpful, but just noting that radiation and an AI do two different things. Radiation kills any lingering cancer cells in, and prevents a BC recurrence in, the treated breast. My RO let me take tumeric, Omegas, etc during radiation so no problem there. The benefits outweigh the risks IMHO.

    I am post menopausal and an on Tamoxifen so have no firsthand experience with an AI. But usually there's a significant reduction of risk of mestatasis to the other breast, bones etc. You might seek a second opinion if your current MO made you feel bullied.

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  • Paco
    Paco Member Posts: 208
    edited March 2018

    Alital82,

    I feel the same as you. I have a bad feeling about radiation and it scares me to death. I had surgery last month and an appointment with my radiation oncologist tomorrow. I would like to go straight to tamoxifen but I will likely do what they recommend.

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  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 3,731
    edited March 2018

    If you aren't sure about doing rads try to read at Deep Regrets https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/70/topics...

    Or Radiation Recovery to see how others have done.

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  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 3,731
    edited March 2018

    How does radiation therapy affect the risk of second cancers?

    Radiation therapy was recognized as a potential cause of cancer many years ago. In fact, much of what we know about the possible health effects of radiation therapy has come from studying survivors of atomic bomb blasts in Japan. We also have learned from workers in certain jobs that included radiation exposure, and patients treated with radiation therapy for cancer and other diseases.

    How does radiation affect the risk of leukemia and myelodysplastic syndrome?

    Most kinds of leukemia, including acute myelogenous leukemia (AML), chronic myelogenous leukemia (CML), and acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL) can be caused by past radiation exposure. Myelodysplastic syndrome (MDS), a bone marrow cancer that can turn into acute leukemia, has also been linked to past radiation exposure. The risk of these diseases after radiation treatment depends on a number of factors such as:

    • How much of the bone marrow was exposed to radiation
    • The amount of radiation that reached the bone marrow
    • The radiation dose rate (how much was given in each dose, how long it took to give the dose, and how often it was given)

    The person's age when they were treated with radiation does not seem to be a risk factor. Most often, these cancers develop within several years of radiation treatment, peaking at 5 to 9 years after exposure. Then the number of new cancers slowly declines over the following years.

    How does radiation affect the risk of solid tumors?

    In contrast, other cancers, which are mostly solid tumors, have been shown to take much longer to develop. Most of these cancers are not seen for at least 10 years after radiation therapy, and some are diagnosed even more than 15 years later. The effect of radiation on the risk of developing a solid tumor cancer depends on such factors as:

    • The dose of radiation
    • The area treated
    • The age of the patient when they were treated with radiation

    In general, the risk of developing a solid tumor after radiation treatment goes up as the dose of radiation increases. Some cancers require larger doses of radiation than others, and certain treatment techniques use more radiation.

    The area treated is also important, since these cancers tend to develop in or near the area that was treated with radiation. Certain organs, such as the breast and thyroid, seem to be more likely to develop cancers after radiation than others.

    Age at the time of treatment also affects the risk of solid tumors. For example, the risk of developing breast cancer after radiation is higher in those who were treated when they were young compared with those given radiation as adults. The chance of developing breast cancer after radiation seems to be highest in those exposed as children. Risk decreases as the age at the time of radiation increases, with little or no increase in breast cancer risk among women who had radiation after the age of 40. Age at the time of radiation treatment has a similar effect on the development of other solid tumors, including lung cancer, thyroid cancer, bone sarcoma, and gastrointestinal or stomach cancers.

    Other factors can also affect the risk of radiation-related cancers. Smoking, for example, increases the risk of lung cancer after radiation even more. Early menopause, which can be caused by chemotherapy, can lower the risk of radiation-related breast cancer. For some cancers though, the risk is higher if chemotherapy was given along with radiation.

    Future research will look at how genetics and radiation therapy interact, as well as the link between radiation therapy and other cancer-causing agents.

    image

    The American Cancer Society medical and editorial content team

    Our team is made up of doctors and master's-prepared nurses with deep knowledge of cancer care as well as journalists, editors, and translators with extensive experience in medical writing.

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  • Alital82
    Alital82 Member Posts: 9
    edited March 2018

    paco and marijen,

    I wasn’t scared of radiation ...until I looked at Deep Regrets. My onc said “I don’t think you’ll have major side effects from radiation.” Wonder if he’s a liar. Could be. It’s not so much pain i’m Afraid of, it’s that i’m Afraid it could undermine my body’s ability to heal using natural methods and no hormone therapy. That’s why I wanted to know if anyone Had gone this way before

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  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 3,731
    edited March 2018

    Alital82, I felt like I had to do radiation and Femara partly because I had no primary tumor - only a positive node. Also my son was afraid I'd go the way of Steve Jobs. Your age, the grade and stage are all important. But there are people that have chosen the fully alternative way. If you post your profile we could better direct you. You've only been here a few days? There is a lot to learn before you rush into anything. Even after you choose a treatment you will find out much more you didn't know. Try to fill out your profile tonight and come back. The more details the better. If you don't have your pathology report you are entitled to it.

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  • Alital82
    Alital82 Member Posts: 9
    edited March 2018

    I filled it out on my profile. And I know more than any patient should all i've Done is read for two months..Ductal carcinoma with small intraducyal component, infiltrating. 2,7 cm, grade 2. Er+95%, PR+80%. Her2-. 0 nodes involved. No mets. Ki67 24%. No family history

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  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 3,731
    edited March 2018

    It's middle of the night here, but I'm sure others will be back in the morning. So you are ER+PR+Her2-(neg) with a 2.7cm tumor. Did you have surgery?

    There are several topics you might like. One for women in their 30s. One is Treating Hormone Positive Cancer Naturally. Another is Choosing no treatment. I'll find the links and be back.


    https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/121/topic...


    https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/27/topics...


    https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/121/topic...


    https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/70/topics...


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  • Alital82
    Alital82 Member Posts: 9
    edited March 2018

    Hi, it's midday here in Italy. A land where they prescribe aromatase inhibitors to young women to be "aggressive".

    Of course, I had surgery. It was a great Christmas, let me say. Thank you for the links, dear. Will look.

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  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 3,731
    edited March 2018

    Well I had Femara first to shrink the lymph node, surgery 7 months later. They do it that way in Europe. I continued the Femara through radiation. No chemo. I'm glad no chemo Btw, there are several kinds of radiation. And are you ok with early menopause? That's what the AI will do I think, not sure. Here's another link. These should be enough for now.


    https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/105/topic...


    https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/71/topics...


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  • gb2115
    gb2115 Member Posts: 1,894
    edited March 2018

    Yes I am premenopausal. I am 39, was 38 at diagnosis. I don't regret having had radiation, or regret taking tamoxifen. I am a year out of radiation (which wasn't a walk in the park), and a year into taking the meds. I feel like all of this is truly out of our control, honestly. I have a close family member who had mastectomy (no radiation) who still had a stage 4 recurrence 17 years later. So that had driven me more to accept all treatment they are willing to throw at me. I wish I could take hormone treatment for longer than the 10 years they are anticipating.


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  • Alital82
    Alital82 Member Posts: 9
    edited March 2018

    Thanks. I appreciate your answer. Agree this is out of our control, not just ours, but of human beings including oncologists. The problem is, the answer is not in the medicines or statistics, it is in the cells of each individual. I believe. And unfortunately no one can look that deep, or so they say. We have atom accelerators for crying out loud and you can-t look into my body to see some tiny cells? Unbelievable we are in 2018 and still are at this point. ANYWAY, I started this topic because I was looking for premenopause people that either opted out on both hormone therapy and radiation or mixed them to tell me how it went for them, and, if they included radiation, if in hindsight they felt that had helped or hindered their healing process.

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  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 3,731
    edited March 2018

    It’s only been 18 hours since you started this topic. I know you need answers quick so it might be better to find a topic where you fit in, or give this one more time. Your profile isn’t showing, I think you need to set it to public since you filled it out. Good luck!


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  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 3,731
    edited March 2018

    I just saw this topic for the first time - it may help you..


    https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/5/topics/...


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  • Lula73
    Lula73 Member Posts: 1,824
    edited March 2018

    alital- yes the answer is in the cells of the individual...but not the way you may think. Cancer is not like a virus that you pick up. It's your own cells where there was a breakdown in the cell replication process. As those altered cells replicate they eventually form a tumor. These altered cells can travel throughout the body. Just 1 cell left behind anywhere in the body can trigger recurrence/mets. Your immune system is not weak or not functioning (unless you have an immune suppressing condition or take an immune suppressing medication). The immune system often does not recognize the alteration or it does but is incapable of fighting it as fast as it replicates. Radiation therapy and/or chemo target the altered cells (and usually take numerous healthy cells along with them as collateral damage) and destroys them. If the rads/chemo destroy them faster than they can replicate then you have a good chance of cure/long term remission. If not, the altered cells eventually overtake multiple body systems and shut them down. Anti-hormonal meds only work for those whose cancer is ER+. The anti-hormonal meds starve any remaining altered cells and prevent new ones from thriving by depriving them of estrogen. Tamoxifen blocks estrogen receptors in the cells so the estrogen can't get in and fuel them. AIs only work for post-menopausal women, those that had their ovaries removed, and those that use a medication to shut the ovaries down like Lupron. AIs only prevent the estrogen conversion process in the fat cells. This process accounts for 20% of the estrogen your body produces. Ovaries account for 80%. This is why AIs are only supposed to be used in women who don't have ovaries or whose ovaries no longer produce estrogen. In a nasty twist of fate, eating healthy fuels both altered (cancer) cells just as it fuels the healthy cells. For that matter, eating at all fuels both types of cells.

    So yes it all comes down to a person's own cells that have had a replication error that needs treatment to eradicate them which can take many forms and are often combined over a course of months to years to increase survival rate.

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