My Hypothesis About Sudden Unexplained Weight Gain in Cancer
Comments
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Hi, Melissa, In the first article it discussed the trend change of increased calories from 1970 till 2000's approximately 400-500 calories a day extra. Roughly from 2000 calories/day to 2500 calories/day over that time period. The big food that stuck out in that research project was French fries and the morbidly obese. The second article pulled out potato chips. Again a fried food. More was discussed.
Now that you are here, if you have the patience, read from page one about the microbiome and the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons(PAH's). Finding bacteria that lives symbiotically in our tissues besides the gut is relatively new. The symbiotic relationship is not without peril though. When you get to the articles that identify low level endotoxins circulating through the body and changing structures i.e in the liver, it starts to get scary. Some of those studies switch back and forth between mice and humans within the same study. Keeping track can be tedious, but is insightful to application of how endotoxins affect organism(us ) health.
As far as the PAH's, the finding of PAH's in breast tissue is troublesome. (As I puff away). I think if any avenue of research that should be chased by researchers, is determining a causal relationship between PAH's and BC. I haven't studied the other culprit ____________(will fill in when I find it's name).
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Hi Sassy, I find it so interesting that all the different diet camps (paleo, vegan, medit., low-fat) blame obesity on what we are eating, and ignore the fact that overall calorie consumption has gone up at the same time obesity has!
Here's another study on gut microbiota and body weight: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/09/15091...
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Falls, brain may be back. From your post "I think you may have it backwards. I don't think weight gain is the body's way of protecting itself from cancer, I think it is a REFLECTION of the metabolic dysfunction that is leading to cancer. There is an increased risk of breast cancer with obesity. Maybe the sames factors are driving both. I think it comes back to inflammation and immunity"
Falls I may have surmised questions about protection or failure. But if you look at the " hypothesis: Sudden unexplained weight gain can be a sign of developing cancer.". I didn't surmise either. I did that for a very specific reason which only research can prove i.e. whether it is a failure of something or something is trying to protect the body. The hypothesis is CLEAN. Some might say too clean. The whole thing is to generate thought to something that may not have been considered before.
They're 19 disease states listed on pg2, where weight gain/obesity has been connected by science as symptomatic of a problem. two are cancer--ovarian cancer and_______. It's a chicken egg thing. In cancer, did the weight gain contribute to the problem or did the problem contribute to the weight gain? What is interesting about the list is almost all are endocrine neuro-hormone/ neurotransmitter diseases. 17:19 or 18:19, ( not sure why AIDS/HIV is in the list). (Alcohol is the other non endocrine). Sometimes clarifying can disrupt the thought.
I agree that the microbiome dovetails very nicely to the topic. If you read early on you will see it was a chance occurrence as was the chasing the PAH info.
Bacteria has been identified throughout the body in tissues previously thought sterile of bacteria. Breast tissue is one of the tissues.
The PAH's dovetails b/c they have been found in tissue's and they are a known factor in causing some diseases i.e smoking>>lung cancer(puff-puff), testicular cancer in chimney sweeps, and more. The impact of PAH's found in breast tissue is yet to be determined.
In re: to all the diet aficionado's of the diet de jour, it's like anything when you are in the forest. The total forest is unknown
Eventually a few years down the road we will know the answers. Recognition that bowel health is a primary source of overall good health. (My dad is dancing in his grave LOL). Problem is how long will it take to get it to mainstream recognition and the application. Probiotics have been an industry for decades. Several of the bacteria that have been isolated recently as being beneficial, are the same as those that early proponents identified as "good bacteria". This 'old information' is being confirmed by science rooted in solid methodology. We aren't talking old info as being a few decades old, but rather millennia. Were working it out, instead of screwing it up.
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Falls, Several of the articles /studies dovetail to the studies I've posted. The study on Lymphoctyes and neutroplhils is interesting. The researchers haven't identified the origin of the elevation or depression of these levels. They hypothesized reasons. I find it interesting that they aren't looking into the low level circulating endotoxin studies. pg3&4.
Hope you get into reading the earlier pages.
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Sassy, sorry I misconstrued your hypothesis. You're right, it is clean! Chicken or egg is covered....
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I can’t say my weight gain (regaining 20 of 55 lbs lost over 2.5 yrs) was “sudden,” but in the last 6-8 months my resolve to adhere to my low-glycemic diet took a major hit--starting with a continuing-legal-ed. trip to Spain that found me in Madrid on the second night of Passover. (Chabad.org had located a communal Seder I could attend where at least a few people spoke English--it would have been poor form not to eat the matzo and the potato-heavy main course). And my hotel had a full Easter brunch the next day, which was included in my room rate. Serve-yourself cava, charcuterie, insanely great breads and that Madrid specialty: freshly baked churros to dip in thick hot chocolate. The beginning of my downfall. Went back on the wagon on my return, only to start comfort-eating when my bc adventure began in late Aug. (and between my dx imaging & needle biopsy I had another continuing-ed trip--plus a coffeehouse gig--in New Orleans, where dieting is a felony. Plus en route home, the night before a PA senior gig, I was forcibly abducted by the “HOT NOW” sign in the window of the Krispy Kreme across the street from my motel). Can I attribute the weight-regain to cancer, either as a protective measure against it or a side effect? For the former, I doubt it: 2.5 yrs. in is usually my “diet fatigue wall,” and there were external psychological forces influencing my eating behavior. But I’m pretty sure that when I start Femara I’m going to have to drastically cut my carb-calorie intake and ramp up whatever exercise my joints will tolerate. I don’t expect to gain much, seeing as how my estrogen levels are already drastically lower than when I completed menopause a decade ago and my MO thinks that Femara will further lower them only enough to starve the tumor cells but not cause menopause symptoms. But I do expect my metabolism to ratchet downward and I’ll need to compensate for that.
I read that article claiming that calories overall, not sodas and sweets, are the culprit in obesity. But it’s flawed, IMHO. While it may be true (and I question whether it is) that thin people eat more sweets and drink more soda than the obese, if it is true it is due in large part that people who are thin and have always been thin (or have been so for 20 yrs or more) lack the metabolic defects that make the obese (especially those who’ve gained-lost-regained several times &/or who are middle-aged or older) less able to turn simple carbs into glucose and then glycogen for muscles to burn--they (we) turn glucose instead into fat, which gets stored. As for calories in vs out, it is now nearly universally understood that not all calories are created equal.
And that a calorie is not a quantifiable substance, but rather the measure of how much heat can be generated by the food to raise the temperature of a given volume of water by one degree C...in a laboratory environment. We are neither test tubes nor Petri dishes. The “calories in” of a slice of white bread and two slices of turkey breast may be equal, but even in a person with unblemished metabolism the body processes them differently. When you add individual metabolic differences, “calories out” can be drastically different between two individuals with the same caloric intake and activity level. The “tell” in that article was the fact that French fries were the preferred snack of the obese. It’s not so much the fat, but the fact that potatoes are even higher-glycemic than white bread (maybe even than table sugar), and when coated in cornstarch or flour to improve crunch when fried (as most commercial vendors do), their simple-starch content skyrockets. The main factor in how the body handles food intake is how the pancreas and the insulin it secretes treats the foods coming in. It varies widely by age, gender, hormones & enzymes, and even diet-induced reductions in body fat (especially in women, and how recent and deviant from long-term prior body fat percentage that reduction may be).
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ChiSandy I agree with you about the calorie is not just a calorie and this has been proven in studies and yet they continue to spout this as the reason people are fat. I find it strange that the above study shows increased consumption of sugar, grains and fats and then they say junk food and soda is not making us fat?
I wanted to let you know you make me laugh about how the "hot now" sign forcibly abducted you! I was never so glad as when the Krispy Kreme near me closed. Talk about addicting substances.
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Fallleaves - I find this whole neutrophil/lymphocyte ratio discussion very interesting. I have been artificially manipulating this ratio for about 3.5 years ( unknowingly for 1.5 of those years). Since treatment my neutrophils and lymphocytes have consistently been under normal range (last blood test neutrophils were 1.2/ normal above 1.5 and lymphocytes 1.4/ normal 1 -3.3).
I know I am causing this because when I went off my green tea and tumeric to get my prophylactic procedures in 2013 within a matter of weeksmy neutrophils jumped up to in the middle of the range, my lymphocytes stayed low and I had the huge deferential that the study talks about (3.4/1.04 = 3.2 times).
I am definitely at a high risk to reoccur stage 3, triple negative, BRCA1+, very high CEA (between 5-8 since treatment/ normal under 4). All other persons who got cancer in my family from this gene passed in 5 years or under. I wonder if this lymphocyte ratio is more important for some of us than others?
Maybe the people who did not reoccur from this lowered lymphocyte ratio have something different about their cancers? I wonder if this ratio is more important for genetic cancers (syndromes- ie breast, ovarian, pancreatic). Maybe it isn't the cancer type so much as the person?
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Wow, Kayrem, that's amazing the difference green tea and turmeric made in your ratio! I let my turmeric run out, but you just convinced me to order more! Interesting points you raise. I know the neutrophil to lymphocyte ratio (NLR) as a prognostic indicator is turning out to hold true for various cancers, but I haven't taken a look at specifically which kinds. That would be really interesting to research!
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Kay and Falls, being a little pushy. What's absent from the lymphocyte/neutrophil study is analysis of why the fluctuations.The lymphocytes and neutrophils are both white blood cells which I know you know. But something is causing the fluctuations. I'm suggesting that a possible avenue to pursue in searching is for material relating the L&N to the endotoxins produced as part of a faulty microbiome. An area in research that is getting a lot of interest is how does the low level circulating endotoxins affect cells. These endotoxins have been traced back to faulty GI tract allowing the endotoxins to cross into the circulating system with lodging in distant tissues.
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Hi - Sas your talk of endotoxins reminds me of something else. Do a googlesearch on Neutrophil NETs and metastasis. They think that neutrophils going to inflamed parts of the body are actually trapping circulating tumor cells and causing metastasis seeding. I read this stuff but it is hard to put all these pieces together. I sometimes wonder if we have really good methods to prevent reoccurrence that we just don't know about.
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Here is one article - http://www.jci.org/articles/view/67484/
Hope the link works!
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Kay, another layer UGH. July 2013---recent, good, first study--we aren't behind times.
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/67484
Neutrophil extracellular traps sequester circulating tumor cells and promote metastasis
In conclusion, this study is the first to implicate NETs as potential facilitators of tumor progression in the context of postoperative sepsis. We directly visualized tumor cell trapping within NETs in murine liver and lung in real time. This was associated with a drastic increase in hepatic metastatic disease burden compared with nonseptic controls. Furthermore, we demonstrated that NET formation in vivo can be inhibited by exogenous administration of DNAse 1 and NEi with favorable oncologic outcomes in this experimental model. This raises the possibility that mitigating the adverse oncologic consequences of severe sepsis in patients with cancer is at least plausible. While additional studies are required to further validate these results, we propose that the NET represents a novel potential therapeutic target in selected patients with cancer.
Used google keywords" neutrophil, nets, and endotoxin" Found a 2015 study
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v525/n7570/full/nature15367.html
Neutrophil ageing is regulated by the microbiome--sept. 2015 access to full article 32$. copied the abridged version.
Blood polymorphonuclear neutrophils provide immune protection against pathogens, but may also promote tissue injury in inflammatory diseases1, 2. Although neutrophils are generally considered to be a relatively homogeneous population, evidence for heterogeneity is emerging3, 4. Under steady-state conditions, neutrophil heterogeneity may arise from ageing and replenishment by newly released neutrophils from the bone marrow5. Aged neutrophils upregulate CXCR4, a receptor allowing their clearance in the bone marrow6, 7, with feedback inhibition of neutrophil production via the IL-17/G-CSF axis8, and rhythmic modulation of the haematopoietic stem-cell niche5. The aged subset also expresses low levels of L-selectin5, 9. Previous studies have suggested that in vitro-aged neutrophils exhibit impaired migration and reduced pro-inflammatory properties6, 10. Here, using in vivo ageing analyses in mice, we show that neutrophil pro-inflammatory activity correlates positively with their ageing whilst in circulation. Aged neutrophils represent an overly active subset exhibiting enhanced αMβ2 integrin activation and neutrophil extracellular trap formation under inflammatory conditions. Neutrophil ageing is driven by the microbiota via Toll-like receptor and myeloid differentiation factor 88-mediated signalling pathways. Depletion of the microbiota significantly reduces the number of circulating aged neutrophils and dramatically improves the pathogenesis and inflammation-related organ damage in models of sickle-cell disease or endotoxin-induced septic shock. These results identify a role for the microbiota in regulating a disease-promoting neutrophil subset.
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There is a method to this madness, I'll explain in a bit. Still working
Both these studies are very recent. I went through their bibliographies looking for keyword Microbiota. My head is spinning. The second article had 5 bibs with the word microbiota in it. The first article had none, but not done with it either. Also, I was trying to see if there were any common citations, but I didn't do a good job at that. But I will relook tomorrow if my brain doesn't decide to take a walk-about.
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Oops on a walk-about
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Gah. I had to go back in my inbox to find this thread. But got it
Just my two cents and please don't be offended.
I think that you are onto something here but following it on the wrong direction. I think that there is a very strong connection between breast cancer and abnormal thyroid function especially when the abnormal thyroid function is due to an autoimmune system disease like Hashimoto's and Graves. Why?
Well it would stand to reason that if you have one of those, your autoimmune system is out of whack, and does not recognize anymore what is harmful and what is not. And we all know that one of the mechanisms that protect us from the many cancer cells everybody has in their body at all times, is exactly our immune system. What is the most important thing in this is that, contrary to therapies like chemo, the immune system actually destroys cancer stem cells too, not just the "daughter" cells. At present, there is no real treatment for thyroid auto-immune diseases, just treatment for the effects of them.
Why just thyroid immune system diseases and not other immune system diseases? Well, mostly because these thyroid problems usually cause our body to "leak" vitamin D, and it has already been established that low levels of vitamin D in the body are directly related to high risk of breast cancer. Why? because vitamin D has an essential role in actually maintaining a fully functioning immune system.
Vitamin D and the Immune System
Of course that it is possible that other immune system diseases that affect Vitamin D levels might be directly related to BC risk. Not only that, but another truth known in the medical community is that if you have one immune system disease you are prone to at least another one. Multiple autoimmune syndrome is a fact.
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Oh yes, I forgot. I did gain weight prior to the BC diagnosis, but it was because, having a very aggressive hyperthyroid (due to Graves) I was scheduled for radioactive iodine ablation, and my endocrinologist wanted me to be slightly "hypo" for at least 6 months prior to the ablation, to avoid thyroid storm. I had already been in two episodes of thyroid storm of which one raised my heartrate to 120 bpm. Was scary, but I survived and even without damage to my heart. I had a goiter, but was inoperable because it was wrapped around my voice box and I would have lost my voice had they attempted to go surgery way. To give you an idea of how aggressive my thyroid was, it did not die from radioactive iodine ablation. I was still mildly "hyper for about 4 years after that, and right when my endocrinologist was considering a second ablation, it just went normal and has been normal since. goiter is gone though.
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kayb, post your thoughts as you go. I'm always happy to see you. You make the learning so much fun
The breadcrumb trail is fascinating. One of the things I found fascinating was why have scientist only recently discovered bacteria in different areas of the body which previously were consider sterile?. Also, with the advent of the Mass Spectrometry why has science only recently discovered other chemicals in the tissues? I'm hoping when you get to the article on insulin resistance and glucose metabolism, you will be as excited as I was. I stopped on the breadcrumb trail when I didn't finish the search on the diets that were identified in the insulin resistance study as being supportive of a healthy gut/liver , and cells. The search was going where I personally didn't want to go. Essentially no white, and no wine. It wasn't fair though to the lurkers to just stop. Some have been very faithful in following along.Seachain I think it's all interrelated. Eventually all the puzzle pieces will be understood and a plan to protect from a breakdown of the system from prebirth will be known. Much is already known. But what is known the real reason, or is our understanding of a reason faulty, but it fits the accepted paradigm. You raised many interesting points. What would be wonderful if you could find time, is to read from the beginning and see how the info fits. Interpretation of data is all based on individual correlation to our knowledge base. You bring certain knowledge strengths to the discussion as does Falls and Kayb. The tough part with a discussion like this is to get everyone to read the material presented. To often folks will comment and never have read the material. Basically it's a non-discussion then. Apples and tires versus apples and apples. KayB is starting from the beginning. If you are willing to read too, I'll contact Falls and I'll work on rereading. (Sigh) My memory is not what it used to be.
Kayrem, Chi and Two come along with us
Mellissa, you too (and anyone I missed) I can tell your knowledge bases are strong in what you are familiar with, if you too can find time to read from the beginning and apply it to what you know, I think we could have a grand discussion. -
So here is a question on gut bacteria, Why, when I stop being able to maintain a low-carb diet, do I just EXPLODE in fat. I did great on Atkins for a long time, but when I stopped almost immediately my weight and fat percentagejust exploded out of all proportion to the difference in the number of calories I am taking in? I want to get back on low carb but am terrified that every rebound/lapse will cause a rapid massive weight gain.
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Seachain, interesting points you raise about vitamin D and thyroid. Thanks for sharing that article. I'm traveling, too, but look forward to getting back to this topic soon!
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Hmm Melissa, I don't have an answer or I do have an answer and don't realize it. Try and read the insulin study. It flip flops from humans to mice, so it does make the reading a bit more difficult. The mouse line is specially bred and is the consistent tool in the study of humans. I'm sure they have a line name I just don't know it. The point is if you can get through the study and then sift through the bibliography and see if anything fits your question.
Melissa glad Kayb popped in she has been studying th insulin resistance for years. Probably the best source here. I've studied it, but not near the depth that she has.
Going to google something BBL
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kayb, looked at Lustig's book. Going to order it from amazon. The "politics" guessing the American Heart Association was very involved. Was it?
New York Times Bestseller
Robert Lustig's 90-minute YouTube video "Sugar: The Bitter Truth", has been viewed more than three million times. Now, in this much anticipated book, he documents the science and the politics that has led to the pandemic of chronic disease over the last 30 years.
In the late 1970s when the government mandated we get the fat out of our food, the food industry responded by pouring more sugar in. The result has been a perfect storm, disastrously altering our biochemistry and driving our eating habits out of our control.
To help us lose weight and recover our health, Lustig presents personal strategies to readjust the key hormones that regulate hunger, reward, and stress; and societal strategies to improve the health of the next generation. Compelling, controversial, and completely based in science, Fat Chance debunks the widely held notion to prove "a calorie is NOT a calorie", and takes that science to its logical conclusion to improve health worldwide.
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IMHO there is one thing that you will have to keep in mind if you want to be successful in this endeavour: there is not just ONE mechanism through which cancer survives and flourishes in the body. I think that actually for each type and subtype of cancer there is a series of conditions that have to be met. For example, I don't think that the same conditions that could trigger IDC would trigger IBC. Or even the same conditions that would trigger ILC and IDC. Just because in some cases (like mine for example) you can find more than one subtype of BC it doesn't mean that each of them was due to the same cause.
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Seachain from my post on the previous page " Eventually all the puzzle pieces will be understood and a plan to protect from a breakdown of the system from pre-birth will be known". I didn't use the word puzzle lightly. A completed puzzle is dependent on all the pieces fitting together. A missing, broken, bent piece all affect the outcome. Thousands of researchers are working on their puzzle piece. In time the puzzle will be complete. Not in the near future, but in the future. Along the path to completion small portions of the puzzle will be completed.
Here the discussion is on the microbiome as it applies to weight and cancer. What each brings to the discussion after the reading of the links is different based on their existing knowledge. I'm not suggesting we will solve the problem. I'm suggesting that we will better understand the problem. I am also suggesting that along the way we might identify actions that we can introduce into our lives that will change our own lives.
After following the breadcrumbs from the beginning, I developed opinions about how the material has and can affect my life. Others have posted their opinions. But there hasn't been anyone that has read the material from the beginning and applied their present knowledge to the material. Without reading the material, their is no exchange of ideas as it relates to the biome. It is at present a disjointed compilation of opinions. Educated opinions, but not a discussion related to the topic material.
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Kayb Would love to see a book that exposes all the things the AHA has promulgated without adequate research. My first love in nursing was cardiology starting in 1974. In 1978 I became involved in EMS education. The core of EMS was trauma and cardiovasculopulmonary events. The cardiovascular management was controlled by guidelines produced by AHA. Our joke among the educators was "what are we teaching this year". AHA has waffled so many times on serious subjects i.e. foods, cholesterol, lipids, drugs, vital signs, cardio care all phases, stroke management etc.. Just this week the guidelines for blood pressure have changed again. I've lost count how many times this has occurred since the late 60's. Three changes since about 2000. It'll be fun reading the book, b/c I have an insiders knowledge of AHA.
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My A1C is normal.I have low blood pressure. I have high cholesterol. All of this (and the potential bone loss) are why I am resisting taking an AI as a preventative. I'm also not crazy about the idea of taking anything that messes with liver function after having had ascites with the ovarian cancer and them insisting I was in liver failure before they finally scanned my pelvis.
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From all the materials on this post I've read til now I am still not convinced. I am sorry, i am the permanent skeptic and too logical for my own good.
Diet: as much as there might be a minor percentage of BC patients that had a higher risk due to their diet, what about the rest? Especially the ones who used to have a very healthy lifestyle prior to BC? Besides, archaeology has shown us that even neolithic people had cancer. I somehow doubt there was McD then.
Same logic would apply for all the pollutants and PAHs. 4,500 years old unearthed and studied skeleton of an Egyptian woman shows she died of breast cancer. Same for the 2,500 years old "Siberian princess".
And I'd have more arguments that would follow the same logic.
Also, take my case. All my life I was what would be considered "below normal" BMI - pretty much weighed 100 lbs for a height of 5'3". After the age of 30 I started slowly to put on more weight but it was muscle weight as I had upped my exercise regimen, and that got me to weighing 125 lbs at the age of 48. The weight gain of 27 lbs caused by anti-thyroid treatment in the last 4 months prior to BC diagnosis - I doubt it caused the BC. The BOS said it was there as DCIS and LCIS for at least 10 years and only started getting invasive in the last year/year and a half - which would put it in the time when I was recovering from severe thyrotoxicosis that had gotten me down to 97 lbs and slowly got me back to 115 then 120 then 125 - normal weight range.
I still think it's mostly immune system related. All the cascade of events and all the "puzzles" affect the immune system. And, even more importantly, what is the mechanism that causes stem cells to become "cancer stem cells". Somehow I doubt bacteria can change a stem cell at DNA level. I don't deny it might affect other mechanisms, like faulty apoptosis, but it has already been determined that it's not the "daughter cells" in cancer that cause the cancer itself as well as recurrences or metastasis. it's the cancer stem cells.
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The posts are only the tip of the iceberg. I'm not trying to convince you of anything., but reading the studies.
But going off to cook a new recipe
Edit: Day read the topic box again, please,. There are two things going on here. I'm thinking you didn't see that. Read the last sentence of the topic box
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I did. Trust me, I did. That is why I posted what I posted about PAH and the neolithic man and archaeological discoveries. Did you consider that maybe the weight gain is NOT a defense mechanism but the first sign that actually cancer itself caused that because it's trying to make the body produce more "food" for it and able to sustain it for a longer time, instead of the body running out of steam and due to feeding the cancer, it starts losing weight and being depleted thus going into the great beyond and the cancer going there with it?
Oh dear, I made it sound almost like a smart parasite didn't I? I'm sure that here somewhere some people that are all into "collective bioenergetical entities" theories will jump on this haha
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So, what's your opinion about the endotoxins?
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Another very interesting book on the history and politics of nutrition is Gary Taubes' Good Calories, Bad Calories. It's a long, involved read, but its fascinating for those who love nutrition.
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