Med Onc consultation PRIOR to lumpectomy/mastectomy?

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Flannery
Flannery Member Posts: 68

Hello Team DCIS,

I was recently diagnosed with a 3.6 cm blob of high-grade DCIS in one breast and have been processing my various surgical/treatment options. I am currently scheduled for surgery in early September, with a tentative decision to go with a unilateral mastectomy on grounds of tumor size, location (close to my pec/chest wall), rapid growth (not visible on mammo 2 years ago - kicking myself now for accidentally skipping a year!), high grade with comedonecrosis, lack of enthusiasm for irradiating my body repeatedly, and better options for reconstruction as compared to those following shark-bite lumpectomy and rads. However, the most influential of these factors for me is the high grade and risk of recurrence. The problem with this is that I cannot for the life of me pin down accurate estimates of recurrence rates for patients getting lumpectomy/radiation stratified by tumor grade and tamoxifen treatment (my tumor is ER+). Loads of references to "higher" and "highest" risk, but actual risk figures I have been presented with range from 0.1% per year (I am 47 years old so only 5.3% if I lived to be 100!), to 1% per year (so 53% if I live to 100), to 60% lifetime from this point forward. With half of that risk being recurrence of DCIS and half being development of a new invasive cancer. This is an ENORMOUS range and I am sure that the data on this question is incomplete, but one of my goals for the time between  now and surgery is to try and pin this down more accurately. If I honestly believed that my lifetime risk of recurrence was 5.3% I would not have a mastectomy. I don't in fact believe that my risk can be that low, but since the numbers I am getting (from breast surgeons, by the way) are all over the map I am beginning to think I should meet with an oncologist before making this final decision. So far the message I have gotten from all of the doctors I have seen is that you meet with the oncologist AFTER the surgery depending on your findings/pathology/margins. I would not be conflicted if my preliminary diagnosis clearly favored one approach over the other - e.g. if I had a 1cm low-grade DCIS I would definitely do the lumpectomy/rads, and if I had microinvasion, multicentric, or enormous DCIS it would be clear to me that a mastectomy was my best option. As it is, I think I am more on the line so owe it to myself to get the best possible information on that recurrence rate question before making a final decision on surgery. Not only that, but so far none of the surgeons have been able to speak competently on the question of whether tamoxifen is warranted following a mastectomy for DCIS, and exactly what effect it would have on my recurrence risk - I just get the rote suggestion that is usually quoted for people that get lumpectomy/rads (half). This is tricky to interpret when you can't say half of WHAT exactly! Half of 60% - definitely worthwhile. Half of 5.3% - not so much.

Now the actual question for those of you with enough free time and stamina to follow me this far! :~) How many of you were specifically referred to an oncologist to get the answers to such questions pre-surgically? Should I assume that my insurance will cover such a consultation? Thanks so much for your thoughts - so very grateful to have the support of this group!

Comments

  • mefromcc
    mefromcc Member Posts: 188
    edited October 2014

    I had a MO appointment before final treatment plans.

  • Annette47
    Annette47 Member Posts: 957
    edited August 2014

    I honestly can't remember exactly when I first met with the MO, but I know it was after surgery.  I think before rads, but can't be sure.   For me, there was never any question that I would be having a lumpectomy (small area of DCIS with even smaller micro-invasion and much less averse to rads than to losing sensation), so it didn't really enter into it.   If you are still debating treatments, then by all means ask for a referral to someone who can answer your questions.   I actually found my rad onc to be the one who did the best job breaking things down for me, but I think that was more a personality thing than knowledge per se.

    My DCIS was considered Grade 2, but did have comedo necrosis and a micro-invasion so I suspect that the 2 was an average, and there were parts that would be considered more aggressive.   The numbers I was given (which may of course be different than yours) was a 30% recurrence risk with lumpectomy alone, reduced to 15% with rads, and to about 9% with Tamoxifen.   The other risk of course is of a new primary, and that I was told was between .5-1% a year.  I was told that is cumulative but know others who have been told differently, so hard to know for sure.    

    Of course my risk of getting it when I did was less than 2%, so not sure I place too much faith in numbers anymore, LOL.

  • redsox
    redsox Member Posts: 523
    edited August 2014

    I saw the MO after lumpectomy and before the start of rads. I agree that the best advice depends more on the personality and depth of knowledge of the particular doctor rather than the specialty. I suspect the range of estimates is the result of considerable uncertainty remaining before the next surgery.

    Please note that you can always go with a lumpectomy first and still decide later to have a mastectomy but you cannot do the opposite.

  • mefromcc
    mefromcc Member Posts: 188
    edited October 2014

    That is what my BS re commended, which is why I ended up with a lumpectomy. It actually was an incisional biopsy because my DCIS was found with a stereotaxic biopsy. I lucked out because my lesion was so small I had clear margins.

    In looking at the BC statistics, be sure to identify if they are talking about morbidity (getting the disease), or mortality (dying from it).

  • annajo
    annajo Member Posts: 84
    edited August 2014

    if you get a mastectomy, they will want to do a sentinel lymph node biopsy, which will put you at risk for lymphedema (and it hurt me like hell).  I would try the lumpectomy first.  No survival benefit for mastectomy, even if it does recur.

    I think although it is not usual for you to meet with an oncologist prior to surgery, they probably would arrange it if requested.

  • cider8
    cider8 Member Posts: 832
    edited August 2014

    My breast center left it up to me.  I was going into BMX surgery expecting to need only tamoxifen after.  Even with this 'simple' treatment expectation, I wanted to meet my MO before surgery.  I'm glad I did:  I ended up needing her a whole lot!  In hindsight, once I got the pathology surprise and needed chemo, I felt confident with her because I'd already met her and liked her.  I didn't have to worry about any new doctor stress.

  • LAstar
    LAstar Member Posts: 1,574
    edited August 2014

    I met with a MO to get a better handle on the available research,  but she (& my breast surgeon) were woefully behind on current studies.  I agree that there are lots of conflicting studies.  I focused on studies that had large sample sizes. I was shocked to find some of the oft-quoted statistics were from studies with very small sample sizes or had confidence intervals that implied a result with no statistical significance!  Best wishes in finding your answers. 

  • Flannery
    Flannery Member Posts: 68
    edited August 2014

    Thanks very much, ladies! I am grateful for your comments and it sounds as though a pre-op meeting with an MO wouldn't be unheard of, at least. If the tumor was on the bottom/underside of my breast I think I would choose the lumpectomy. A large divot in that area wouldn't trouble me or my husband, and would not influence my choice of clothing. Sadly it is high on the top where the breast is not very full, so I expect I would end up with a crater that would be pretty apparent in normal open-neck clothes. Not the end of the world, but not something I would feel like explaining every second day, either. This factor, together with the suggestion that my high-grade and aggressive (if that is possible for DCIS) tumor is at particularly-high-but-not-precisely-definable risk of recurrence, is responsible for my current inclination toward UMX. 

    Although I work in the (veterinary) medical field, have a PhD, and am more than capable of processing the medical literature, I find myself annoyed that I have to do this and cannot rely on my caregivers to provide accurate and detailed information to guide decision-making. I think they fall into a routine for how these cases are handled and get lazy on the specifics, which are constantly changing. No one I have seen so far had any idea how to process my question about whether sentinel lymph node biopsy would be necessary or warranted if I did lumpectomy first, waited for the final pathology report to come back, and then proceeded with a mastectomy even if DCIS only and ZERO invasive cancer is found. So now I have to make a long and tedious trip through the primary literature to figure out the implications of this for myself. SLNB (never mind ALND!) terrifies me because I have a rough-and-tumble job in which "avoiding breaks in the skin" is a complete impossibility. I get small- and medium-sized cuts and scratches on my hands and arms on a daily basis and living in constant fear of lymphedema doesn't seem much better than living in fear of a cancer recurrence.

    Rant over! Many thanks for your help, ladies. I'm sure I will come to terms with all of this by the time my surgery date is upon me.

  • SpecialK
    SpecialK Member Posts: 16,486
    edited August 2014

    flannery - here is some SEER data regarding DCIS for you to take a look at, specifically scroll down to Question 4:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK32570/

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited August 2014

    You might want to consider contacting Dr. Lagios for his perspective on your situation - many women who've come through this site have used him for a 2nd opinion and he seems more willing than most doctors to offer specifics about recurrence risk.  If you do a search of his name on this site, you find lots of threads by women who've gone to him.

    A couple of other thoughts.  First, if your DCIS is close to the chest wall, this means that rads might be recommended even after a MX, if you have positive or very close margins. So going with the MX might not mean that you'll get to pass on rads, and rads can make reconstruction more challenging.  Second, if you are that concerned about the SNB and the risk of lymphedema, you might want to consider at least starting with a lumpectomy. An SNB won't need to be done, and then you'll know if your final diagnosis is pure DCIS, in which case you will have avoided unnecessary node removal.  If some invasive cancer is found, then you would at that point need to have the SNB, but that's possible after a lumpectomy, whereas it's more difficult - and virtually never attempted - after a MX.  You'll also know at that point how large the margins are, and you'll get a preliminary idea of what your post-surgical breast will look like.  With that info, you might choose to move on to a MX, or you might be satisfied with the lumpectomy. 

     If you are uncertain about what to do surgically, you can always do a MX after a lumpectomy but you can never go back to a lumpectomy after a MX.

  • Flannery
    Flannery Member Posts: 68
    edited August 2014

    SpecialK: thanks for the link - that looks like a useful summary!

    Beesie: you make some very good points. I actually considered this staged approach early on, as it would save me from going under anesthesia thinking I was getting a SLNB but waking up having had a full ALND. That is terrifying for me, so I would rather know in advance if that really had to happen. I think I originally dismissed this approach because it meant 2 anesthesias/surgeries instead of one (assuming mastectomy is where I ended up anyway), plus a BS told me at one point that the lumpectomy incision might compromise integrity of the skin if a mastectomy was performed shortly afterward. But from what I've been reading on this board this is a common sequence of events so it must not be a big issue. And since part of my rationale for doing the mastectomy was avoidance of rads and for the sake of a better reconstruction, if it turned out that I must have rads anyway I would probably just stick with the lumpectomy and see what could be done cosmetically down the line when my skin/tissue recovered somewhat. Thanks for reminding me of this again - more to add to my research list. So far I have not gotten anyone to commit to what specific criteria they would use for recommending rads if the mass was pure DCIS, so I guess I need to have the lumpectomy if I want that answer prior to initiation of reconstruction.

    Thanks to all of you for taking the time to comment and help!

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited August 2014

    When the cancer is pure DCIS, the criteria for rads after a MX is strictly margin size.  But that's where subjectivity comes in.  It used to be (back when I was diagnosed) that rads was virtually never suggested, no matter how close the margins.  But after a couple of small studies indicated that there may be a significantly higher recurrence risk with close margins (if I recall, one study had the rate at 16% for those with margins of 2mm or less), this started to change.  Some surgeons still don't suggest rads unless the margins are positive, but these days more and more are recommending rads after a MX for DCIS when margins are 1mm or closer.  

    If you do a search on the board within the DCIS forum with the words "radiation" and "mastectomy", you'll find a number of threads where this has been discussed and where you'll find women who had pure DCIS and yet still had rads after their mastectomies.

  • Flannery
    Flannery Member Posts: 68
    edited August 2014

    Thanks, Beesie - I will hunt those threads down, as well as question my surgeons closely about this.

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