Where to measure BP and do blood work after BMX?
Hi, I had BMX but only left side had sentinel nodes removed,but it is right arm I am worried about. I was using right arm to check BP, in the hospital they used it too, I have a very low BP so I need to check it. I thought I am ok to use right side as there was no nodes removal. Now I have some swelling under armpit and part of my arm (the bottom) hurts a bit, could I have developed LE? How should i check my BP?
Comments
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kimag I need to know this too. Will be watching for replies. Jan
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i had a double mx, and i have bp and blood draws on the non-cancer side with no issues. i was told by my care team that bp and so forth on left side (no nodes taken) would be fine and should be the only side for such things.
is it possible your swelling is unrelated to bp etc...? have you fallen? leaned on something for a long time? perhaps gotten bit by something? did you carry something for a long time? try out a new exercise? wear some clothing that caused chafing under your arm? i can think of so many reasons why you might have what you describe....
is it red / hot to the touch? itchy? if yes - get seen. if you've been bitten by a spider or something, you could have these symptoms and may even have developed cellulitis or something totally treatable like that.
how long have you had the swelling? is it new? if you've had it for a while - get seen. if it's brand new... perhaps wait a day or two and see if it resolves?
that's the best i've got.
good luck....
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kimag,Hi! I am not an expert but my understanding is that there are mammary lymph nodes removed during a mastectomy so despite the fact that your non-cancer side should be fine for blood draws, etc., you could get lymphedema......but since that would be rare, I think you should contact your PCP and get it checked out or get a referral to get to the bottom of your swelling and discomfort.
MsP
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I have LE on both sides, even though SNB was only done on one side. I have BP taken in my leg (my doctor prefers to take it in my thigh, but have also done calf), but haven't had blood drawn since LE started.
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You most certainly can get LE on both sides with a BMX. Even with no nodes purposely taken, the nature of the surgery is such that some may be inadvertently taken. I have LE on BC side and "suspected LE" on the prophy side. I wear sleeves on both sides. I get foot draws and BP is taken on leg/calf. When I did chemo and with all that comes with that, your "good" side really takes a thrashing. After all that, my good arm finally said "enough".
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Thank you all for responses! It is very helpful.
AuntPaula, Musical have you switched to calf BP test after LE was diagnosed or before as prophylactic ?
BikerLee - I am only 10 after surgery so the swelling can result also from the fact that the drain was removed 2 days ago or so and that this side was draining more then left... the under arm 'thing" was here since surgery I thought it is drain under skin first but now it is gone and the 'bulb' under arm stayed. The nurse I saw today mentioned that my arm could have been pulled during surgery as they do not feel sometimes the extent to pull. I will try to find LE specialist just to be on a safe side,
How do you measure BP on calf? is it the same result as arm or one have to learn the normal values from the beginning?
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I don't think I had it taken at all between discharge after surgery and diagnosis--it developed pretty soon after surgery, looking back--but planned to do it prophylactically, even though I was at low risk of developing LE. I developed it on my non-SNB side first, then several weeks later on the SNB side.
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I had a BMX with sentinel nodes removed and 1 axillary node. I am not positive, but I agree with Ms. Pharoah that nodes could have come out with the BMX.
I get all BP's on my leg. I make sure the cuff is lower towards the foot. I find that if they put the cuff right on the calf, it hurts like a charlie horse. The artery that is best for BP's is towards the left side of the front of the ankle. Not all health professionals know this.
I get all blood draws and IV's through my foot. According to my visit to Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN, the protocol is to leave the foot elevated for one hour afterwards. I didn't ask, but am assuming it is to prevent blood clots.
I had an incident last year, where the surgeon LIED about me having LE, that it wasn't in my records (which was all lies as well). I heard him lying about me when I was in the pre-op area when he thought I was asleep or under. I learned to write in a Sharpie Marker on my arms LYmphedema/no bp/no blood draws on each arm. On the left I write only in emergency so they don't start an IV on the right side where my LE is worse. (The Sharpie isn't that hard to wash off...It came off right away).
If you have an IV in the foot, it is often painful, so I always order a small needle with lidocaine to numb the area first so it doesn't hurt as bad when the IV is inserted.
If you have a blood draw in the foot, I have to have a doctor's order for it. I have a standing order flagged on my chart at the clinic system I go to. Ask for some GOOD AND EXPERIENCED for blood draws from the foot, as they can be difficult.DON'T LET THEM DIG AROUND EITHER. Some of the pull the needle back and forth trying to find a vein. Talk about painful. Once I had a phlebotomist pulling the needle in and out, poking me like I was a roast. I stopped it and told them it was too painful. Turns out the phlebotomists had no idea foot draws were painful. I complained to the supervisor and never went back there again. I write down the names of people I allow to take my blood, so I know who to depend on.
I also that you should have that area looked at not only by a doctor but a Lymphedema specialist. Finding a Certified LE therapist would be best. you can find them online at several websites:
This website is a good read and reliable not for only finding a therapist, but for information on LE. The link I gave you takes you to finding a certified therapist but the menu on top will take you to different information topics.
http://stepup-speakout.org/Finding_a_Qualified_Lymphedema_Therapist.htm
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kimag, welcome to the boards by the way.... my prophylactic was 11 mths after BC side. I developed LE shortly after RT on my BC side. I can't remember exactly when I switched but Im 99% sure it was after prophy. My "good" arm sure had had enough with a host of procedures and what not.
Cinnamon I can identify with so much of your post. I didn't know about the ankle though. Thanks for that. Im so sorry about you being lied to. THAT is unacceptable. Grrrrr.
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Ladies thank you so much! I asked my surgeon thinks I am low risk for LE and I wonder how would other doctors take my request for calf BP (would simple GP know how to do it?) or foot blood test... What if I go to ER do I have to have special standing request for IV in other area than arm? It seems that if one have not developed LE yet these request may not be heard ?
I have thyroid issues (no thyroid) so I have blood test from time to time to control TSH.
Cinnamon - thanks for link, the info about how to measure BP on calf, I did try it today before you post and noticed the pain you described
I have also noted you choose not to reconstruct - I am on the same way, not sure how I will feel with this decision after some time but now I am happy with my choice
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One more question, if it is not hot/warm, nor red/pink most likely it is not cellulitis? The nurse from Home care saw it and said nothing about possible infection so I assume it is not that... but I have just finished reading more about LE and freaked out
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kimag, please don't let LE freak you out. You are still very fresh from surgery if Im reading your sig right. It doesn't sound like cellulitis to me. Maybe a seroma? The best thing to do is give yourself some space and time to heal. Keep an eye on things but, come here and learn as youre able, and ask all the questions you need. Little by little you'll be able to process the advice and info and apply that to your situation, but right now you have a lot on your plate.
Some things are basically standard for all of us. One of those is that if we've had any nodes out at all we are at risk for the rest of our lives o get LE. Many of us wont, and on the one hand we don't want LE to rule our lives, but we don't want to be negligent either. It's a balancing act, and it is wise to observe some precautionary measures to lessen our chance. These are well known amongst this community and a list pops up from time to time.
Yes its a life style change, but thats BC. For foot draws, and BPs Im not sure where you're situated but I guess its the same everywhere.... it depends on who your GP is. There is a LOT of ignorance regarding LE out there. Some doctors are simply clueless and some are not. Some are arrogant and think they know it all and some are willing to learn and work with you. A lot of the time unfortunately we have to be our own advocates and push for what we know we should get. Thats where knowledge of LE will come in handy.
I wont let anyone touch my arms unless it's an emergency.
I think what Cinnamon wrote had a lot of good advice.
I chose not to reconstruct and Im happy with my choice.
Gentle Hugs.
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kimag, I too chose not to do recon, and I 'm also content with that, even these many years out. Have you visited the Breast Free site?
htttp://breastfree.org
Good information and lots of resources!
Binney -
I also am a happy non-reconstruct-er.
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Thank you Ladies so much!
Musical you are very right in your post, I will try to calm down and process info slowly... many things related to BC freaks me out, it is funny considering that when I had lymphoma 18 years ago I never thought about million things which scares me know... I went through chemo not thinking about possible heart damage, I went through high dose radiation not worrying constantly about heart, lung damage and so on....
I do have a lot on my plate now including a meeting with surgeon for pathology results in 2 hours - I am so scared
You Ladies are so generous !
Binney - I will check the link you left - thanks
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kimag, gentle hugs and yeah this is scary. No one likes this waiting game. Well you would have already gone to your appointment as I post this, so when you come back...hope it all went well. What did surgeon say about the swelling? Im hoping for a good result for you!
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It's a lot to process. Hang in there. I hope your appt went well.glennie
(also a happy non reconstruct-er)
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I am back, and just to want leave the update as the threat was about measuring BP etc. I will move to IDC I guess
the results says : pT1a as there were 2 points of invasion 2.5 an 0.5 mm other then that it is 7 cm DCIS with clean margins , surgeon said it is considered microinvasion but the number there 1a suggests it is not.... have not heard yet anything if ER/PR positive , they have not testes for HER2
I am not sure what next, have to wait for oncologist.
Surgeon does not see signs of lymphadema, he said 3 nodes removed from over 40 in the area will not cause issues... and swelling I have still post surgery
Thank you again for all your answers and support
Thank you all for the answers and support
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Kimag, I absolutely do not want to cause you unnecessary worry, but please do not discount swelling (even mild) or other LE symptoms; your surgeon is incorrect about that number of nodes not having the potential to cause issues--I had three nodes removed on the right, none on the left, and developed LE on the left side. (I have since also developed it on the right, which I think was helped along by an IV I got in the right arm when I was having a colonoscopy and the nurses could not get the IV in my foot.) If you're having pain/achiness/swelling, take that seriously and see a LE-certified therapist.
I hope your visit with the oncologist goes well and that you get all the information you need.
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aunt paula - I will try to set up appointment with LE dep, at Cancer Institute in my city however it is a wait
and according to the lymphadema association locator the closest specialist is around 300 km away...
how to tell if swelling is not related to the surgery ? I guess I have to wait for specialist to discuss that.. is there anything while waiting I can do to stop it if indeed it is mild LE?
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I'm not sure (I'm still relatively new to LE too). For me, from the time after surgery that I was first able to take off the compression wrap, I experienced swelling that now I can see was not just surgical. I had a couple of seromas too, so there was definitely surgical swelling and fluid accumulation, but if I was out of compression even weeks after surgery, the swelling was immediate. LE was actually diagnosed at around six weeks after surgery, when I asked about stopping compression, and the surgeon was kind of surprised that I was still wearing it. He said I could stop whenever I wanted, and I decided to go to work without it the next day. Since that time I haven't been able to get rid of the swelling, even with compression.
The first things I recognized as specifically LE-related were swelling and throbbing/aching in my left hand/elbow/upper arm and shoulder. Also, I have swelling on the left side of my neck. The LE on the node-affected side is milder and (so far) much easier to manage.
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Aunt Paula has the swelling been big enough that you saw it yourself? When I look on my arm/hand I cannot see it swelled, I have pain though in the back below armpit which is strange as nothing was done to that side, again surgeon said no swelling everything ok, it is hard to asses for me if back looks swelled or not, no bra, no compression nothing to kind of measure it...
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I couldn't see the swelling in my arm/hand at first, it just felt kind of heavy and achy. I could see the swelling around my breast and in my neck, but chalked it up to surgical swelling at first. Now when the swelling happens (which I am struggling with in the heat), I can see it and feel it. I also had achy pain in my shoulder and sort of wrapping around from my breast to my back. Since it was on the side where no nodes were taken, I kept thinking it couldn't be LE.
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Aunt Paula - the feeling of wrapping around my chest - like wide bra, more tense under armpits and back - this is what I exactly feel... I though it is post surgery as the chest is nimb still, I felt it just after surgery but I did have wrapping at that time... I am confused and lost... how quickly one must act if there is LE that nobody see?
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I'm not sure about that in terms of a specific window of time, but I would think the sooner the better just to contain swelling and reduce pain and discomfort. I went as soon as I realized what was going on. My LE was mild, and I started therapy and saw a reduction in swelling and pain. Now I'm waiting for compression garments. I have found a lot of very helpful information at the Step Up Speak Out website (.org)--for some reason it isn't working when I try to post the link, but it has been a gold mine of information for me.
I am a definite newcomer to all this, but if an LE-certified therapist is an option at all, I would definitely suggest going that route. I saw someone at the very beginning who was, and who was very good, but because it was such a long way to travel I decided it would be better for me to see someone locally. She is really good, but was straightforward about not being certified, and as much as I have enjoyed working with her, I think I would have benefited more from staying with the first therapist and figuring out a way to deal with the travel.
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kimag, there can be as much as 30% more fluid than normal in the tissues before any swelling can be seen. That is called Stage 0, or "sub-clinical" lymphedema. So visible swelling is not what determines whether you have lymphedema. I'm still hoping your doctor is right, but an evaluation by a well-qualified lymphedema therapist would still be a great idea. S/he can take baseline measurements for future reference, give you personalized risk reduction tips, fit you for garments to use when exercising or traveling, and teach you a gentle lymph massage to use whether or not you have lymphedema.
A lower number of nodes taken lowers your risk, but it certainly doesn't eliminated the risk. Lymphedema can happen with no nodes removed at all, as it is trauma-related. ANY breast surgery, even breast enhancement or reduction without any cancer, can result in lymphedema. So can auto accidents, and football players are also at risk because of the trauma to their chest.
Here are some tips for what to do while waiting for an evaluation:
http://www.stepup-speakout.org/How_You_Can_Cope_wi...
As for a time frame, soon is good, but it is not an emergency.
Be well!
Binney -
Hi Ladies, I have a hard time to get to lymphedema specialist, I got phone number to the cancer institute from my nurse navigator for the department dealing with lymphedema but it does not respond, only machine... I keep hearing that the risk is only 1-3% and should not worry and use my rifgt hand - it is frustrating..
I was wondering if one get shot would it be in the leg? or chemo?
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Hi, Kimag,
I always use my thigh or hip for shots, not either arm. It can be hard to convince nurses not to use our arms, but it really is up to us to stand firm, since it's our arms that are at risk, not theirs. For chemo a port is a good idea.
Hope you manage to connect with that lymphedema specialist soon, and that they're able to give you good guidance and help. Please keep us posted!
Binney -
You know what? I got a DPT booster in my right arm RIGHT before the LE started. I thought it would be OK to get it in my right arm, since my MX was on the left. Now I don't have any signs of LE on my right arm, and my left arm actually has minimal swelling. It's mostly truncal for me. But you have to wonder,, did the shot set it off? Cuz it was a week later that I started to feel the swelling,,,,,
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