Follow-Up; not OK
percy4 wrote:
Hi All - I'm usually in the DCIS section, though I had a microinvasion, which technically puts me at the lowest Stage 1. I am deeply unhappy with my HMO's (and most insurance companies, in CA, at least) standard follow-up, which is this. A family history (without genetic testing), or your first cancer being detected by other than mammogram, qualifies one for alternating mammos/MRIs. And ultrasounds. A personal history of BC, which makes one much higher risk than the first-degree relatives I made higher risk by having BC, does NOT qualify one to have those tests. As per the American Cancer Society. Of course, it is I who am at the highest risk. Clearly. The rationale is that they do not have proof (though it is probably so) that doing these other tests as follow-up decreases mortality. Even so, I believe I am entitled to know about a new BC before it has spread to my nodes, or will take my breast , or will warrant chemo, even if it isn't going to kill me. And mammos only show a not-so-big percentage of BCs, which, in my case, could be another DCIS/micro, or, as we all know, could be a totally different BC; one that could be seen better/earlier with US or MRI. Obviously, if there is no decreased mortality by testing me, there isn't decreased mortality for my first-degree realtives, but there it is. I am just done with treatment. I've already discoverd, from other questions, that my MO goes stictly by the basic standards (though she has the ability to order tests outside that), and that she consults with the other 5 MOs at my facility, and others nearby, and gets back to me with answers like "I've consulted with all the other MOs here, and they agree with me you don't need this or that. But I'd be happy to refer you to one of them". For what? They already agreed. So. My question is this. No. I can't afford, nor am I able to, mid-year, change my insurer. Do any of you have info or links to things that show that follow-up for women who have had a BC (and, therefore, have a four-fold higher risk of a future BC than other women; higher than any relative) would be better served with US and occasional MRI, in additon to mammos? I need something to show them (Patient Relations) when I become the squeaky wheel. I've been very lucky, but the earliest detecton about a possible new BC in future is what I really need. Mods; any advice? Thank you all. - P. xx
Comments
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Percy - this policy is not necessarily being driven by your insurance company - it is the oncological organizations who recommend what oncs adopt, which in turn creates insurance company standards. Here is what ASCO and NCCN say:
https://www.adjuvantonline.com/breasthelp0306/PosttreatmentSurveillance.html
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I can't answer your question, but wish to add to it. Which is the best method of detecting DCIS? It was a digital mammogram that showed calcifications which lead to my bx and DCIS diagnosis. An MRI with contrast was clear, yet my lumpectomy revealed more DCIS not found on US, mammogram, or MRI. The calcifications were not on my previous 2 mammograms. It makes me wonder what is growing undetected? What tests should we push for?
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Special K,
Thanks, your post happened while I was typing mine. These guidelines are from 1999 and 2006, and these organizations have not felt the need to update them!?! They seem more interested in mortality. I bet most of us BC people are more interested in mobidity and finding any new BC as quickly as possible.
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Thanks, all. I do see, and I did know, having been told repeatedly by my MO, that MRIs and ultrasounds are not recommended as routine folllow-up after a BC. The ASCO site has a large disclaimer after their recommendations, however, basically stating that their recommendations are not to be taken as the standard of care, and that docs should use their own judgement. I have such a low chance of a distant recurrence that that isn't what concerns me. My concern is catching a possible new BC or recurrence in the breast in future while it is still early, before I need a mastectomy or harsh treatment. Article after article tells me that a lot of BCs are not seen on mammo, especially in dense breasts. They sent me a letter stating my breasts were dense and that because of this, a mammo might not show a cancer. Then they tell me they will not do anything about this (other types of breast scans). They will give my first degree relatives US and MRI, but not me. So what I'm saying is that doesn't make any sense, right there, and therefore the recommedations are wrong. By the way, the letter they sent about my dense breasts is something they are mandated by law to do after a woman made a campaign about this, because she had dense breasts, had her mammos every year, and her BC wasn't seen on mammo till it had spread to her nodes (though if I recall correctly, they then told her that it had probably been there a few years). Obviously, they shouldn't just tell you that a mammo may miss a BC in your case; they should then do something more to make sure a BC is more likely to be seen. At least an ultrasound, which can shows things mammos can't. -
mefromcc - The ASCO and NCCN guidelines are for surveillance after treatment, and no they really have not changed from those positions. These guidelines are predicated on looking for progression as I assume that the thought is that a recurrence or new primary in the breast would be seen on routine screening annually, and the feeling is that if there is distant metastasis they don't look for it until you have symptoms because the thought is that finding it earlier does not affect mortality. You are correct - the disconnect felt by those of us who have been diagnosed is that finding anything new as early as possible seems desirable, and that logic would dictate that earlier is better for treatment choices, but the stats apparently don't bear that out in terms of distant mets. This is different than finding something new while it is still in the breast - and I think this is percy's dilemma.
Here is an updated link to the 2006 one:
percy - It makes no sense to offer increased surveillance to relatives whose risk is increased by your diagnosis, but deny it to you if the focus is on finding a new primary or recurrence in the breast after treatment, particularly in light of your confirmed density. I am one of those whose mammogram failed to detect a palpable 2cm cancer due to density, and it had spread to the nodes. My mass was seen on ultrasound - which I had routinely done because I always had palpable lumps that never showed on mammograms, but that is policy in military medical facilities. My nodes - one of them the size of a stage 1 breast lump, and the ADH and ALH in the opposite breast were all missed by MRI. Those were discovered on post-op pathology, and were a complete surprise to all. I am fortunate to have an onc who does not follow the ASCO and NCCN guidelines and regularly does tumor markers, CBC, CMP, Vit D., and scans for me, and they are covered by insurance - but I was Her2+ and node positive, and that may be driving his reasoning and the insurance company's cooperation. Has your insurance company notified you in writing that they will deny any other form of breast imaging other than mammo, even if ordered by your docs? It is that your doc will not order anything other than a mammo? If so, that seems shortsighted.
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Thanks, SpecialK - No, the HMO has not informed me, the MO has, and I believe her fellow MOs there will do the same. They are a tight-knit group who discuss cases all together. I intend to go to Patient Relations, but the doc informed me that she is meeting the HMO's standard, so... I'll go with my "dense breasts may not show cancer with mammo" letter they themselves sent me, and be a really squeaky wheel. This is in Sept. or so. Yes; to not give me at least US is short-sighted, but the MOs there are like robots; they keep repeating the same party line, though they have the power to order what they want. And, as to family history, while I technically don't have one, I have only ONE female relative to go by, my mother, no blood aunts or older sisters, and my grandmother died in an accident at 40. This is my Jewish half, which is more prone to genetic BC, so who knows if my female relatives would have had BC, if there had been any female relatives? I told the MO that; she was unmoved. Thanks for your support. Yes; distant recurrence does not concern me. My chance of that is like 1%. If anyone has any links to articles that support alternating MRIs/mammos/US for follow-up, I'd appreciate them here. I'm not too computer-savvy, myself. I have seen women here whose MOs order those things for their routine follow-up in cases like mine, so I know they exist here. Thanks again. xx
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Percy, the State of CT requires anyone who has dense breasts (over 50% I think) to be offered MRI or US as well as a mammogram. I am unsure what other states if any have this law, but we do. I had over 50% up through my 2012 mammo but the law went into effect July 1st and I went for mammo in June of 12'. Then in July 2013, I did not meet the clinical definition of density anymore but my calcs were seen on mammo and I was put on 6 month repeat for a diagnostic and went to Yale and had 3-D mammo where I was diagnosed in January of 2013 after my biopsy for a Birads 4. Check with your state to see if they have this law.
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April485 - Thank you for this information, I, too, live in CT and your post was the first I'd heard of this. For those who want to check if their state has passed density laws that provide for additional screening such as ultrasound, here is a link:
http://www.areyoudense.org/worxcms_published/news_...
"Missouri joins Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Minnesota, Arizona, New Jersey (2014) Tennessee, Hawaii, Maryland, Alabama, Nevada, Oregon, North Carolina, Pennsylvania (2013), Virginia, California, New York (2012), Texas (2011), and Connecticut (2009) to enact density reporting legislation to protect women from delayed diagnoses."
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CT passed this in 09??? Why in the HECK did I not get notification that I could have had an US or MRI instead of mammo at my 2010 or 12????? (skipped 2011) I am not a happy camper about that. Thanks CT Mom!
PS..at least we were first. We are the most progressive state these days!
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Thanks for the info, ladies. I will print it all out and bring it with me when I insist on more screening than just mammos. I think this is a very important "cause" in the BC world; a world that is so publicly supported. More of the general public should know about this issue; women at risk (especially who have had a BC) getting only the minimum follow-up, and not what might really help them. Wish we could get the word out. The reporting law is great, but it's not enough in CA. A letter reporting that you have dense breasts and may not see a BC on mammo isn't any good to someone who is still not offered (or given, if she asks) an MRI or US that is covered by their insurance as a result of that info. Many women, like me, cannot afford to pay for these screenings outside of their insurance plan.
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I just have to say. I REALLY resent this. Having to argue and fight to be given tests that could change your life is just wrong. As I said, mortality isn't the only thing. I need to know about a new BC or recurrence in my breast, hopefully, before it gets too big/advanced. Which, technically, could save my life at some point, depending on the nature of the new BC or recurrence in the breast, and how early it is found (pre-nodes, etc.). I was hoping to put BC behind me, save the things I need to do to be doing all I can. If I can't have the right tests, I can't be doing all I can, and I can't move on. The input from all you ladies (and, thank you especially, SpecialK) has really helped, and has also let me know that I am not alone in my concerns. As usual, BCO is an amazing support. xx
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AND. Interestingly, I have been given FIVE imagings in the last 6 mo. (MRIs and US and CTs) for an incidental finding (from the one breast MRI I insisted upon before surgery; my BS, who is now out of my life, was happy to order it, but she's rare) of a small lesion in my liver (liver findings, harmless, are frequent). This lesion was always (98%) thought to be a harmless hemangioma (blood cluster). And FIVE imagings, with all that cost (I was satisfied after the first one or two), but no, no better imaging of my breast , which really does have a very increased chance of having an issue. I am so upset. As I said, I want to put this behind me, except for making sure everything is followed up well, and I just can't, now. I'm going to be the squeaky wheel, and I HATE that. I am deeply in debt, from being off work (not paid). I must turn my attention to other things, but if I don't make sure about my follow-up, there may not be other things in future. I want to go back to normal life! Ahhhh..
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Hi Percy,
I don't know if this will help, but you might consider contacting Dr. Lagios to get his thoughts. I was nervous about whether my screenings were sufficient so my general physician called him to get his feedback (I had previously consulted with him about my pathology), and he told her that based on my medical background (my cancer did not have calcium receptors) he recommended that I have a post-treatment screening MRI. My GP and breast surgeon then worked together to get me an MRI. It was expensive, even with insurance, but worth it. Maybe his opinion will also carry some weight with your doctors.
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Thank you. What is the calcium-receptor test called on the path report? I'm not seeing it on my path report. There was no lymph or vascular vessel involvement test, either, though I see some women with just micros have all these tests, and more. It was a full 1 mm, so it can't be that it was too small to do more tests on, as that's the biggest a micro can be, and, as I said, I've seen other women here with micros who had more involved tests on the invasion. More path tests would have been nice, as my original MO (I switched early on because the first MO was out sick a lot right then) and my BS both told me, literally, after the micro was discovered, "You don't need the sentinal node biopsy", so it wasn't done. I agonized about that decision a lot, but it was by then late to start rads and even the RO, who I think is good, said I could omit the SNB. They had never even mentioned the SNB; I had to learn about it here and ask them. Yes; I consulted with Dr. Lagios about my whole pathology, and it was he who first recommended alternating MRIs/mammos. This was on the phone, not in writing, so I emailed him about this, and his recommendation is in writing in response to that. I will include it in the arsenal of info I will need to try to sway them. Frankly, I don't think my MO (or her MO "team") cares what anyone says. No matter what I say, she just says "I follow the (ASCO?) recommendations to the letter, and they are the gold standard", etc. etc. I may ask her if it were herself, her sister, or her mother who'd had a BC and the dense breast letter/warning about mammos, would just mammos be enough for her then? Oh, well. I't just hard to know it's going to be a battle. And this is not some fly-by-night HMO. It's Kaiser Permanente in CA, the largest HMO we have, I think. Constant radio and TV commercials about caring for your health, being cutting edge, having the best docs, PREVENTION, etc. -
You can ask for an external appeal from your state's insurance department.
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percy - not sure what a calcium receptor test is, nor can I find any information about it - I have not heard of that, or seen it in anyone's path info on this site, or any of my own. As far as LVI, it is not a test done but rather an observation. In some cases you will see LVI as "noted" or "seen" or "observed" in reports, but if it is absent it means it was either not looked at, or very often, not seen or noted. It is one of those things that they record if seen, but don't necessarily record on the report if not seen. Because it is not on your report does not necessarily mean they did not look for it, but could definitely mean that it was not there. I would ask how LVI is normally noted on the path reports generated by whichever lab did the pathology.
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Wish this law had passed last year. I am certain my cancer was there then and went unnoticed on a regular mammogram. Had I gotten additional tests it would have been found and I would not be going what I am now.
Nancy
They told me 4 years ago I had dense tissue, but was never given any additional tests.
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Hi Nancy - I don't know if you would have been offered other screening. The law for reporting dense breast tissue findings to patients only mandates that they let you know you have dense breasts and mammogram may not show all BCs. The law does not mandate them to offer you (at least in CA) an US, etc., in addition to mammo, and does not mandate them to give you one if you ask. So, what's the point of the law? The ASCO recommendations do not go along with the intention of the law, and it seems a lot of MOs and HMOs are falling back on the ASCO recommendations.
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Percy - a lot of doctors were actually against the notification laws. It's not that they don't want to help women, but because there's not a lot they can do when it comes to screening dense breasts right now. Ultrasound is good when they're looking at a specific area (either a palpable lump or to follow up on a suspicious mammogram finding) but it's not great at whole-breast screening. MRIs are expensive, but that's not the only downside - they are very sensitive but not specific. MRIs tend to show lots of little abnormalities but can't tell malignant from benign which leads to lots of biopsies. I'm not trying to say that any of this is acceptable, just why it is the way it is. I don't know if things would've been different for me if the law was in place when I started mammos at 40. I do know that my palpable1.5 cm ILC wasn't visible on the diagnostic mammo much less the two screening mammos I had at 40 and 42 because of my dense tissue. Would I have done self exams? Would it have changed anything? I don't know but I do know that I wish I had known mammos were all but useless for me, even if I wasn't offered an alternative. I would ask your MO what your risk is either of recurrence of this cancer or developing a new one and ask how she got to that number. If you're satisfied with her calculation, ask at what % the benefits of MRI outweigh the risks - maybe you'll be comfortably under that threshold, and if you're over her number, maybe she'll agree to an MRI. FWIW, MRI didn't identify multiple areas of LCIS and PLCIS as well as a tiny 2.5mm ILC tumor that was only found on surgical pathology after my BMX. We need better screening technologies!
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Percy...adding to what lekker said and coming from a person whose mammo missed her tumor as well, one assumes that population based SCREENING mammos save lives as do sonograms and MRIs. The bottom line is that DIAGNOSTIC mammos and other imaging PROBABLY save many more lives. Our country does a great job of imaging, but a poor job of coming up with better ways to screen women for breast cancer. Your doctors are neither wrong nor right in referring back to following the current standards of care. The problem is that we are trained to believe that if we go for population based screenings we are going to prevent MANY breast cancer deaths and sadly that is not the case.
You can petition your state's insurance department for an external review. They might be able to mediate a solution that you might be more comfortable with.
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BTW... I had dense breasts and always got sonograms with my annual mammograms. When my on/gun found a lump, the diagnostic mammo missed it and the diagnostic sonogram located it. When the radiologist reviewed the prior years sonogram, the mass was there. However, since it was a rare type of cancer that is usually mistaken for a cyst, it was missed for several years!
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Well what about these new 3-D mammograms. Shouldn't these be offered to all women with dense tissue or would it make no difference?
Nancy
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Thanks for all the input. I'm interested in knowing more about the 3-D mammos, as well. I hear the fact that MRIs miss a lot, and also find a lot of false positives (though I'd be willing to have extra biopsies rather than not enough). I can also see how "needle in haystack" screening US could be, and how important it is to have a really skilled radiologist do it. However, if my dense breasts make screening mammos largely ineffective, I'm going to need screening USs, even if tedious. I simply have to be doing all I can. "Pain in the ass" though I may be. My HMO tells me I am at a 4x increased chance of another BC, as opposed to a woman who has not had BC. I have been very lucky (probably). My body has warned me, and, thankfully, it was caught (mammos ARE good at seeing calcifications; however, a new BC, which I am at higher risk for, now, may NOT be calcifications next time). So. I have aging parents, children who need me, and 30-40 years of a life to live. My purpose is to catch a new BC very early, in the breast, if that should happen. Period. Because if it should happen, the prognosis may not be as lovely as it was this time. I get it. My body, with no family history or particular risk factors, made a cancer in my breast. I don't know why, but it would seem I am a bit predisposed. I am doing self-exams every two weeks, without fail, in case it happens again, but presents differently next time. I think we should all do that, like brushing our teeth (node area, too). This is one benefit of being small-moderately breasted. Lying flat, I can feel basically to my ribs. Though I know a cm. lump in the middle tissue would be hard to feel. Just saying; I'm doing my part. And the ongoing execise to cut recurrence chance, as well. Doing that, though I don't love it (the rowing machine is great, but kicking my butt!), and don't know where I'll fit it in when I go back to work. I just don't ever seem to get that endorphine rush that many do, so it's a chore for me, start to finish, though I like going, and the women there, and stretching, and how I feel after. Just not during. Still; that's my job. now. Best as we can, we have to play as big a part as we can about our health. And, truth told, though it's not an imaging, it does make me feel better to know I am helping to prevent recurrence/another BC. My RO showed me studies that have shown that ongoing, serious exercise for life cuts BC recurrence by over 30%. So. There's me doing my part. I want to see my HMO doing their part. Not just the minimum, but the tests that will serve me.
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Percy...I'm very sorry to say that catching a breast cancer early may not improve your outcome. If you enlighten yourself about the mammography controversy, you will see that sadly, there are plenty of women who caught their tumors early only to die because their disease was extremely aggressive. Likewise, you will meet many like me, who have dense breasts and had sonograms and somehow our tumors were missed. And shall I tell you about our lovely, brave Stage IV sisters who religiously went for breast screening and were still diagnosed at Stage IV from the beginning. Those sisters don't like hearing lower stage sisters saying they hope if there is a next time it will be caught early. That caught early phrase irks many of us.
The bottom line for you is....if you are unhappy with your care or your insurance, there are ways to mediate. I hope you find a plan, going forward that you are comfortable with and works for you. Hopefully, in the future, we will have better screening methods. Until then, finding a physician whom you trust should make the future journey, hopefully a little easier.
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I apppciate your concern. And I get that my docs may be caught in a hard place. Still; this is my thing. I clearly have to be my own advocate. My mammos were advised at 2 years, not one. Now, I see that all women over 50 should have yearly mammos. If I'd known that, if it had been yearly, likely I might have not had the micro yet. Which can kill me, in time. I have to get the screenings I deem important, because they are doing the least thing advisable. I am going to do all I can, even if I seem to them like a b****. I am happy to be here, with women who understand, and I am surprised to see that so many other women are concerned about follow-up. I think it's a big issue. Really; for women in my position, whose next BC may be worse, it is the only thing. If an US, though tedious, may show something sooner, then I want that. I am really unhapppy about having t do it, but I will.
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Percy,
I am a walking example of why you have to be your own advocate. I had DCIS 3 years ago - I actually felt the spot, mammo saw it and surgeon did lumpectomy but didn't think it was anything (turned out to be DCIS). I went onto do partial mastectomy and radiation. I have a family history to beat all family histories - but have tested negative for the BRCA1/2 twice (and most recently was negative for the expanded panel).
So - upon advice of my astute friends, I have insisted on a mammo and MRI every year since DCIS 3 years ago. Moved from CA to SC and insisted on both - and was asked "why?". I told them "because!". Surgeon here told me that that DCIS is normally caught better with a mammo so why did I want an MRI? I said "because!". I got the MRI. Mammo was clear and MRI found a mass. Thank goodness it's Stage 1 - but middle oncatype so I'm enduring (not so well) chemo right now (today wasn't a good day).
Remember - it's all about $$ in the health care field and minimizing costs - so be your own advocate. My MRI was covered (thankfully) and I suspect it will be going forward. In my case, an even better way of spending my time would be on decreasing my racing estrogen (mine is pretty much all estrogen driven) but an MRI definitely gives me peace of mind (btw, sonogram after MRI couldn't find my latest tumor for a biopsy - interesting).
Keep on advocating for yourself!
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percy...There is much controversy over what age and at what frequency patients need mammography. In the US, despite the recommendation made by the US Preventative Services Task Force that women between 50-69 get mammos every second year, like what is done in Canada and Europe, women are still advised here, by their physicians, to begin annual mammos at 40. No doubt, each woman needs to discuss her risk factors for breast cancer with her doctor and decide a plan that the patient is most comfortable with.
What is equally important to know is augmenting mammography with other types of imaging does NOT prevent you from getting a deadly breast cancer. It might give you more types of treatment options if found early, but ultimately might still be deadly. Screening mammography and sonograms do a great job of finding very treatable breast cancers. That's also why the latest debate about notifying women who have dense breasts has created a quandary.
And that 1 mm invasion that is Grade 1 that was found in you is very unlikely to kill you. In fact, the folks who rage about over diagnosis say that it is possible for some of those smallest tumors to possibly spontaneously disappear! Believe it or not! And, it is likely that even if it grew larger, because treatments have improved so greatly, it is STILL unlikely to kill you. So, going forward, it is important to be your own advocate, but remember, more care doesn't necessarily mean better care.
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Well; thank you. The bottom line for me is that I don't just care about what may kill me. I think health care should be invested in what may be caught early in the breast. BEFORE it may kill you. Having your breast, not having lymph node invovlment, not having to have chemo are all about health care, and not just about what may kill you. I do not want to only be addressed about what might kill me. I want to be addressed about what may concern my health, at all. I deserve to know about my health, not just my mortality. That's the whole point.
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If I have a good prognosis I deserve to keep it. If I kept my breast. I deserve to try to keep it (and, God knows, I am deeply sorry for those who didn't). If I didn't need chemo this time, God willing that will remain the same. No woman here, no matter what has happened to her, wishes the same on me. I am just trying to protect myself and my family. Sorry if I sound defensive, here. but I have come through this initial BC pretty unscathed. There is no assurance that would happen again. I just want to protect myself and my family. And sometime, apparrently, you just have to go all-out to do this. I have never been in this position. I appreciate all of your good input. Still; at the end of the day, it looks like I'm going to have to be REALLY whatever to get what I need.
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