I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

If there is anything more inane.....he would look almost normal without the weapon.  But now he looks scary and stupid at the same time.

• So if no kosher products are available in Australia, that means there are no orthodox Jews in Australia. Or they are living on self sustaining little plots of land.  How in the world did you manage that?
  

I did some research - there are a couple of supermarkets here that carry a Kosher range.

While I'm here - I just want to say I rarely criticise any of you for your beliefs (maybe the occasional comment on the nonexistant Climate Change) and I don't appreciate being attacked because of what I said. IMHO - this forum was better before political discussion was allowed. You criticise the women on the Mirror thread - well you've proved you are no better.

Suzie, it may interest you that NZ had Halal certified meat works from 1978 onwards. Absolutely nothing to do with Sharia law all to do with business. We needed an export market and so can export any of our meat to the Middle East.

Strange that there are few kosher foods in Australia when the supermarkets here carry it and surprisingly they are Australian owned. And we have a much smaller Jewish population than Australia. 

And just to state my position on this topic it is extremists of any sort I do not like. Remember that Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu extremist not by a Muslim as most people think. Extreme opinions of any sort can lead to dangerous outcomes. 

Alyson, are you back home yet?  Sorry I was unable to meet you while you were here.  I live at least 3 hours from the meeting point. It looks like you had a good turn out though.  

No kosher in Australia?  I think the folks at Kosher Australia (www.kosher.org.au) would be surprised to hear that.  Those pesky facts again.

I think we're being too hard on Suzie.  Some people fear change and the unknown and we should provide information and guidance, not ridicule. All of us are ignorant of some things.  All of us have been wrong, illogical thinkers at some point.  

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from my read of the posts -

Suzie makes the point that manufacturers are pressured, economically or otherwise, to provide products that meet halal requirements.  I assume the certification requires an inspection cost and possibly a change in manufacturing processes.  Those changes may require costs beyond the resources of a small business.  Therefore, small businesses may be forced out of business because of these pressures.  In addition, prices may increase to cover these costs, and persons like Suzie who have no interest in halal certified products are forced to pay the additional cost for a product they don't want.  That may not be an issue now but I can project and see how it may in the future.  I can understand Suzie's resentment of that culture.  I don't agree with it or feel it myself but I can understand it.

We have to understand that the world doesn't exist in a vacuum.  People and cultures change and other cultures clash, sometimes painfully, with ours.  Some people adapt to those changes more easily than others.  Some will resist change with anger and fear.  We must accept it and help each other rather than dismissing others' fears out of hand.

I'm not saying this very well.  I just want us to understand each other and make efforts to bridge the gaps, understanding that it takes time, a lot of time, and effort on everyone's part.

Sorry, E - I cannot understand it.  If a business makes the decision to obtain halal certification, that is the decision of the business based on its business model. If someone doesn't want to buy halal or kosher-certified products, they don't have to.  If they want to buy a product and it is only available as halal- or kosher-certified, they can stand on their principles and do without.  The equivalent analogy is complaining that complying with health laws or workplace safety laws costs businesses money, which is then passed on to the consumer, so there shouldn't be any workplace safety or health laws so food will be cheaper.

And PiP is right.  These and similar arguments were used in 1930s Germany and they are being used today in the United States (remember those incredibly poorly spelled "Speek English its are nativ langage" signs on FB?). Arguments like thse are used to demonize populations, to make the "other," to dehumanize them, to distance them from the "real people" (whoever they are).  

There are people who are afraid and aren't bigots.  And there are bigots who are afraid but who don't want to change.  Bigotry is comfortable and feels good - "confirmation bias." I am no more sympathetic to people being afraid of halal and Muslims and openly declaring they hate Islam than I am to people being afraid of black people, calling President Obama and his family filthy names, and openly declaring their desire that the country fail with him as president.  They may be entitled to those sentiments and entitled to express them, but I am entitled to mine and to my expression - and I choose not to tolerate bigotry in silence or to tacitly agree with them by remaining silent.  

Marriage equality is coming faster and faster in the U.S., and I believe it is because people refused to remain silent.  They stood up, persistently debunked the lies, and soldiered on.

I've blocked Suzie, but I need to take a deep breath and stop this.  I'm a strong believer in the First Amendment - i.e. that everyone has the right to say whatever prejudiced and ignorant thing they want to - but the first Amendment does not guarantee that anyone has to listen to it or invite the speaker into one's home.  This is our home, and I am no longer going to read this crap in my home.

This is not just a difference of opinion.  A difference of opinion is when you think low taxation will create more jobs.  When you express ignorant fear and hatred of another group, it not a mere difference of opinion. This is bigotry and prejudice. If someone who expresses bigotry feels attacked, good. The First Amendment doesn't guarantee that when you express bigotry and prejudice based on ignorant fear of people different from you, you won't be called what you are: a bigot.  And make no mistake: this kind of bigotry is dangerous.  It justifies acts of violence against the people whom one considers to be a threat.  

The Holocaust did not occur in a vacuum.   There were not just a few prejudiced people shoving Jews onto the trains and into the gas chambers.  Those Germans (and just for the record, there were Germans who opposed Hitler and risked their lives to save Jews or dissidents) who had views like Suzie's - that Jewish people have different values - that they don't believe in our way of life - those paranoid and prejudiced Germans, even if they might not have actually wanted their neighbors gassed to death and their bodies burned, those Germans enabled Hitler and the SS to kill babies, children, women, men, old people in horrific ways. Those Germans looked the other way when their neighbors were taken way; those Germans didn't protest as laws were passed stripping away the rights of their Jewish neighbors, as actions intensified, destroying and confiscating Jewish businesses, culminating in the train ride to the gas chambers.   And those enabling Germans, who supported Hitler, who turned their eyes as people were murdered, always knew one good Jew. But that Jew was the exception - so they didn't care about the rest of the Jews, because the rest of the Jews were money grubbing and power hungry, and they were destroying the German way of life. So saying, I'm not prejudiced because I like one Muslim person does not negate prejudiced comments about Muslims and Islam in general.

Why do I go on about the Holocaust?  Because it is one of the most explicit examples of what happens when you let prejudice go unchecked and unchallenged.  The first step to a genocide is creating fear and  paranoia about the people who are different from you.  The first step is when good people let the bigots go unchecked, because other people might start to think that this kind of talk is ok.  

So while people do have the right to say whatever they want, I have the right to attack people who express prejudice. I have the right not to listen.  And I have the right to kick them out of my house.  I applaud all of my sisters on this list who are doing the same.

Enough. 

Ditto on what RL said.

Beautiful mom; beautiful daughter.

Thank you, Sandy and R_R!  

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That's an interesting post, Kayfh.  Thanks for the information!

on the issue of xenophobia... My husband call FOX news, Feeding Our Xenophobia.