I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

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  • bluedahlia
    bluedahlia Member Posts: 6,944
    edited June 2014

    Some want to compare the gun violence in other countries vs. the U.S. Suzie.  It's all about the spin!  So ridiculous!

  • QuinnCat
    QuinnCat Member Posts: 3,456
    edited June 2014

    Suzie - when half of the US is for leaving an American behind in Afghanistan to a certain death, certainly you can understand that half this country is batshit crazy.  They've lost their marbles.

  • lassie11
    lassie11 Member Posts: 1,500
    edited June 2014


    There is a shooting incident with a hunt on for the perpetrator in New Brunswick (a Maritime Canadian province). It is huge news in part because it is really horrible and also because it is not such a recurring thing here. We don't expect such things to happen because they very rarely do.

    Please don't let this encourage the gun rights people to make an argument against decent restrictions on guns. Yes, bad things can happen with good laws in place. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be restrictions against guns. This is an aberration against our culture rather than an ingrained part of our culture.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2014

    kam - like button!  It's not the WHOLE country...

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2014

    http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/grandmother-stabbed-to-death-in-qld/story-e6frfku9-1226945491806

    honestly, it's like asking why people would continue to live on "gold coast."

    what Blue said - and the news MOTTO HAS ALWAYS BEEN:

    IF IT BLEEDS, IT LEADS!

    Same reason why people watch reality tv, or rubber neck at accidents - they haven't got anything else in their lives...


  • gardengumby
    gardengumby Member Posts: 7,305
    edited June 2014

    according to our local news outlets, the reason the students were able to tackle the gunman, stop him from killing/shooting more people was because he had to stop and reload.  Yet the NRA insists there is no reason to limit the amt of ammunition a gun will hold...

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited June 2014

    Yes we have people who murder but not mass killings like you seem to have with regularity. And - I hate the Gold Coast - I grew up there

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited June 2014

    We cannot own a gun except for sporting reasons and have to have a license - I couldn't go out and buy one.

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited June 2014

    I thought of the like button for so many previously written posts....all the way to the last post I left on here.  Got to work this morning at 7:15 and off tonight at 8:45.  Just thankful I can still put in days like that once in awhile.  I would love to add some 2 cents change in this post, but I'm having trouble sitting up straight.  Time to wash up, get in pj's and dose through whatever is on the tv so I can go to bed soon. 

    Jackie

  • QuinnCat
    QuinnCat Member Posts: 3,456
    edited June 2014

    Hey Idjuts, read this.  By a fellow Conservative, though David Brooks of a dying breed of Conservative.

    OP-ED COLUMNIST

    President Obama Was Right

    By DAVID BROOKS
    June 5, 2014

    Americans don’t have a common ancestry. Therefore, we have to work hard to build national solidarity. We go in for more overt displays of patriotism than in most other countries: politicians wearing flag lapel pins, everybody singing the national anthem before games, saying the Pledge of Allegiance at big meetings, revering sacred creedal statements, like the Gettysburg Address.

    We need to do this because national solidarity is essential to the health of the country. This feeling of solidarity means that we do pull together and not apart in times of crisis, like after the attacks on 9/11. Despite all our polarization, we do accept the election results, even when the other party wins. People in New York do uncomplainingly send tax dollars to help people in New Mexico. We are able to assimilate waves of immigration.

    National solidarity is especially important for the national defense. Men and women serve in the armed forces for a variety of reasons, but one of them is the awareness that it is an extraordinary privilege to be an American, that it is a debt that needs to be repaid with service.

    Soldiers in combat not only protect their buddies, they show amazing devotion to anyone in the uniform, without asking about state or ethnicity. This is the cohesion that makes armies effective.

    image

    David Brooks

    JOSH HANER / THE NEW YORK TIMES

    These commitments, so crucial, are based on deep fraternal sentiments that have to be nurtured with action. They are based on the notion that we are members of one national community. We will not abandon each other; we will protect one another; heroic measures will be taken to leave no one behind. Even if it is just a lifeless body that we are retrieving, it is important to repatriate all Americans.

    The president and vice president, the only government officials elected directly by the entire nation, have a special responsibility to nurture this national solidarity. So, of course, President Obama had to take all measures necessary to secure the release of Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl. Of course, he had to do all he could do to not forsake an American citizen.

    It doesn’t matter if Bergdahl had deserted his post or not. It doesn’t matter if he is a confused young man who said insulting and shameful things about his country and his Army. The debt we owe to fellow Americans is not based on individual merit. It is based on citizenship, and loyalty to the national community we all share.

    Soldiers don’t risk their lives only for those Americans who deserve it; they do it for the nation as a whole.

    It is not dispositive either that the deal to release Bergdahl may put others at risk. The five prisoners released from Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, in a swap for Bergdahl seem like terrible men who could do harm. But their release may have been imminent anyway. And the loss of national fraternity that would result if we start abandoning Americans in the field would be a greater and more long lasting harm.

    Israel once traded 1,027 Palestinian prisoners to get back one of their own. Another time they traded 1,150 prisoners to get back three of their own. They did it because of a deep awareness that national cohesion is essential to national survival. They did it because Israeli parents share a common emotional bond; the imprisonment of one of their children touches them all. In polarized countries, especially, you have to take care of your own. If you don’t, the corrosive effects will be cumulative.

    It doesn’t matter either that the United States government ended up dealing with terrorists. In the first place, the Taliban is not a terrorist organization the way Al Qaeda is. America has always tried to reach a negotiated arrangement with the Taliban, and this agreement may be a piece of that. In the second place, this is the dirty world we live in. Sometimes national leaders are called upon to take the sins of the situation upon themselves for the good of the country, to deal with the hateful and compromise with the loathsome. That’s their form of sacrifice and service.

    So President Obama made the right call. If he is to be faulted, it would be first for turning the release into an Oprah-esque photo-op, a political stunt filled with inaccurate rhetoric and unworthy grandstanding. It would next be for his administration’s astonishing tone-deafness about how this swap would be received.

    Most of all, the Obama administration can be faulted for not at least trying to use the language of communal solidarity to explain this decision. Apparently, we have become such a hyperindividualized culture that it is impossible to even develop an extended argument on how individual cases fit into the larger fabric of the common good.

    Still, the president’s instincts were right. His sense of responsibility for a fellow countryman was correct. It’s not about one person; it’s about the principle of all-for-one-and-one-for-all, which is the basis of citizenship.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2014

    Population of Australia?

    Population of USA?

    Enough. Said.

    Too much good to condemn an entire country because of a minority.

    Great Editorial - thanks Kam, saved that one too.

    Editorial The New York Times June 5, 2014
    The Rush to Demonize Sgt. Bergdahl
    Four months ago, Senator John McCain said he would support the exchange of five hard-core Taliban leaders for the release of Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl. “I would support,” he told CNN. “Obviously I’d have to know the details, but I would support ways of bringing him home and if exchange was one of them I think that would be something I think we should seriously consider.”
    But the instant the Obama administration actually made that trade, Mr. McCain, as he has so often in the past, switched positions for maximum political advantage. “I would not have made this deal,” he said a few days ago. Suddenly the prisoner exchange is “troubling” and “poses a great threat” to service members. Hearings must be held, he said, and sharp questions asked.
    This hypocrisy now pervades the Republican Party and the conservative movement, and has even infected several fearful Democrats. When they could use Sergeant Bergdahl’s captivity as a cudgel against the administration, they eagerly did so, loudly and in great numbers. And the moment they could use his release to make President Obama look weak on terrorism or simply incompetent, they reversed direction without a moment’s hesitation to jump aboard the new bandwagon.
    The last few days have made clearer than ever that there is no action the Obama administration can take — not even the release of a possibly troubled American soldier from captivity — that cannot be used for political purposes by his opponents.
    Though we criticized the administration for ignoring the law in not informing Congress of the transfer of the Taliban detainees 30 days in advance, leave it to Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and other hyperventilators to claim that continued release of prisoners from Guantánamo without prior notice is now considered an impeachable offense, a ludicrous leap.
    Gov. Rick Perry of Texas says the whole exchange was cooked up to distract the public from the Veterans Affairs scandals, and the talk-show crowd has piled on Sergeant Bergdahl’s father for his suspiciously long beard.
    Cowering politicians now even seem to regret their initial burst of joy that a prisoner was coming home. “A grateful nation welcomes him home,” said Representative Lee Terry, Republican of Nebraska, in a Twitter message on Sunday. The statement on his website was deleted a short time later. “Warmest regards to his family with gratitude for his/their service and sacrifice,” wrote Representative Stephen Lynch, Democrat of Massachusetts, in another quickly deleted tweet.
    This duck-and-cover response is the result of the outrageous demonization of Sergeant Bergdahl in the absence of actual facts. Republican operatives have arranged for soldiers in his unit to tell reporters that he was a deserter who cost the lives of several soldiers searching for him. In fact, a review of casualty reports by Charlie Savage and Andrew Lehren of The Times showed there is no clear link between any military deaths and the search.

    Thousands of soldiers desert during every war, including 50,000 American soldiers during World War II. As many as 4,000 a year were absent without leave for extended periods during the Iraq war. They leave for a variety of reasons, including psychological trauma, but whatever their mental state, it is the military’s duty to get them back if they are taken prisoner. That’s what the Obama administration did in this case, and there was a particular sense of urgency because a video showed that Sergeant Bergdahl’s life might be in danger.
    But the critics seeking political advantage don’t care about the life or mental state of a particular soldier, or of a principle of loyalty that should provide comfort to any soldier in danger of capture. They live only for the attack.

  • bluedahlia
    bluedahlia Member Posts: 6,944
    edited June 2014
  • QuinnCat
    QuinnCat Member Posts: 3,456
    edited June 2014

    This GOP algorithm - if Obama does it it must be wrong - has reached ridiculous heights.   Really, are regular citizens now judge and jury for Bowe Bergdahl's actions in Afghanistan and by their judgement he should be left to die in Afghanistan?   Can you imagine if he was beheaded by the Taliban what those same people would say? (< rhetorical question - apply algorithm).

    My point is, it is now becoming a National Joke imo.  If Obama does it, it is wrong and now that has come down to rescuing an American prisoner of war.  How silly does that sound?  Have "they" become so inured in their own propaganda they can't see how silly their rhetoric sounds?  I'm embarrassed for our country.  We (really "they") look like total jackasses.  I'm sad for our country too.

  • bluedahlia
    bluedahlia Member Posts: 6,944
    edited June 2014
  • RetiredLibby
    RetiredLibby Member Posts: 1,992
    edited June 2014

    As I said above, it all boils down to this:  the wrong wing, the teanderthals, the America-haters,the anti-military, unpatriotic RWNJs would rather let a young man in his 20s, with his whole life ahead of him, a young man who volunteered to serve his country (and STFU about what they THINK) he may or may not have done ... They would rather let him die a lonely death in a foreign country in the hands of our enemies, perhaps tortured to death, perhaps dying from disease or malnutrition, than give President Obama any kind of success in anything at all.  They would rather let all that potential that young man carries go to waste to spite the black man in the White House (and OF COURSE it has to do with his race - it ALWAYS does with them - they live and breathe it).  They would rather devastate his parents, his siblings, his friends and his hometown, knowing that he could have been saved and wasn't, because they hate Barack Obama.  They are willing to actively cause a death to spite the President.  I call that moral depravity.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2014

    worse than moral depravity, but RL, you're on the right track...

    I'm rather comforted by my belief in Karma

  • pip57
    pip57 Member Posts: 12,401
    edited June 2014

    I just read the RR article.  I knew there was probably more to this story.  I can't even imagine how he must have been treated when he showed compassion for the people of Afghanistan.  It will be very interesting when he tells his story.  

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited June 2014

    Sun - the difference is not population - we have real gun laws here - the average citizen cannot own a gun. When did you last read of a mass shooting in this country - 1996 - after which there was a very strict law introduced. Even before that hand guns were not kept in any home. I still can't get over the fact my brother in Washington State actually taught his 16 year old to shoot.

  • QuinnCat
    QuinnCat Member Posts: 3,456
    edited June 2014

    It's the same immoral algorithm Ford motor company used on their bad transmissions in the 1970's and GM on their bad ignition switches (now), though their rule of thumb was how does it affect our bottom line (which, btw, is another mantra of the GOP, e.g.  reasons for not doing anything about Climate Change - it is bad for the bottom line).  Both companies let people die rather than having a recall because it was cheaper to pay off lawsuits for fatalities and injuries than fix the problem.  Instead of how does it hurt our bottom line, it's how can we hurt Obama.  Moral deprivation - YES.

    Speaking of "the bottom line" I remember former Rep Ney (R) say that if there was legislation pending in the House that would help people,  Rep Boehner's response was "but how does it help business?"  That's all the GOP cares about for the most part.  They are shallow tools of big money and Obama is not one of them - race aside.

  • QuinnCat
    QuinnCat Member Posts: 3,456
    edited June 2014

    Suzie - 1996, or maybe 97, I was in Australia, and I remember a woman telling me that people were turning their guns in, I think for money?  Is that the incentive they used to get gun circulation down?  Or were people required to turn in their guns?

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited June 2014

    There was a gun buy back scheme - they all seemed to be rifles. They were destroyed. The main thing is that gun ownership was never commonplace here but the laws back then allowed people to own guns for recreational shooting eg pig shooting. Those laws became extremely strict after that incident.

  • QuinnCat
    QuinnCat Member Posts: 3,456
    edited June 2014

    Hee hee.....Bowe Bergdahl's father is a Republican. In June 2010 he gave a speech at an Idaho Republican fundraiser. In his speech at the fundraiser he claimed to be the lone Santa Barbara surfer who voted for a Republican - Ronald Reagan. The irony....POTUS supporting him while his own party calls him a Taliban sympathizer and his son a deserter.

    Like I said, they're lousy at picking heros and likewise lousy at picking their villains. They need to put their thinking caps on and stop their knee jerk algorithm of "how can we make this hurt Obama?" Loving the irony.

  • IllinoisLady
    IllinoisLady Member Posts: 29,082
    edited June 2014

    ThumbsUpThumbsUpThumbsUp I could just keep on hitting that like button.........With Sunny on the Karma. 

    Jackie

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited June 2014

    I heard the father had converted to Islam - he is certainly a strange one.

  • lassie11
    lassie11 Member Posts: 1,500
    edited June 2014

    No - that's one of the right wing nonsense speaking points that is intended to feed fear and blame the victim.  This is from:  http://www.newsweek.com/stop-blaming-bowe-bergdahls-father-253828


    "Bergdahl and his wife Jani are not Muslims; they are pious Presbyterians. Bob told Time in 2012 that he started growing his beard (and learning some Pashto and Urdu, as well as reading books about Afghanistan) to better understand the world his son could not escape."

  • crazy4carrots
    crazy4carrots Member Posts: 5,324
    edited June 2014

    In fact, it appears that the Bergdahls -- because they took the New Testament so seriously -- instilled such a sense of righteousness in their son that this was the reason he found the behaviour of his troop-mates so disgusting.  To see fellow human beings (Afghan children) treated so egregiously was obviously very difficult for him. It would certainly be more than enough for him to state in emails to his father that he was ashamed to be part of a unit who behaved in such a way.

    I have no doubt whatsoever that  the truth will emerge, and that this soldier will receive full exoneration of all the crap the Repubs have tried to throw at him.  The Repubs have truly jumped the shark this time.

  • QuinnCat
    QuinnCat Member Posts: 3,456
    edited June 2014

    Suzie - you must be watching one of Rupert Murdoch's stations in Aussieland.  

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited June 2014

    Kam - I actually read it online in a paper - probably a Murdoch one :)

    Big fuss on Twitter about Obama chewing nicotine gum during the D Day ceremony - now that is tacky.

  • crazy4carrots
    crazy4carrots Member Posts: 5,324
    edited June 2014

    Suzie -- For a person who has arguably the most stress-filled job that neither you nor I could possibly imagine, I think we could cut the President a little slack when it comes to relieving some of that stress.  Chewing nicorette?  Horrors!  By the way, is it really any different from someone sucking on breath mints in the presence of others?

    My sister-in-law has developed dry mouth syndrome (awaiting tests to see if it's Sjogren's -- sure hope not).  Her doctor told her to start chewing gum to assist in the production of saliva.  My DH told her the same thing, reminding her that the act of digestion starts in the mouth.

    But no -- she won't.  She would never let her children chew gum and she's "certainly not starting to do so now" herself.

    My point is that many adults chew gum or suck on mints for a variety of reasons, many of them health-related (and yes, even to combat a nicotine addiction).  

  • pupmom
    pupmom Member Posts: 5,068
    edited June 2014

    I have also read that the Bergdahls have always been staunch Republicans. I wonder if that's going to change after all the harassment from the right.

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