Mammograms and breast cancer

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  • ziggypop
    ziggypop Member Posts: 1,071
    edited March 2014

    'I don't know what the NCI really said but a simple threat of a lawsuit would get the man to remove a slanderous quote. Would be extremely easy for the NCI to do. Is it possible that out of all the people representing the NCI, that the NCI might have stated both?

    The NCI did state that mammograms would cause breast cancer in 75 women under 30 .... That quote, however was from 1979 when the radiation from mammograms was over 10 times what it is today, and is part of the reason regular screening mammograms have never been recommended for women under 30 (radiation is much harder on younger people). This is an example of how people who are trying to present a certain point of view can string together things that are factually true (the NCI did in fact say that - the quote is accurate) but present a total picture of something that is misleading. Facts are very easily used in misleading ways. 

    Once we find something like this in an article - or used by some entity, or used to back up an over all claim - it seems that we would WANT to seriously question WHY is this person or entity deliberately misleading me? Do they not have a reasonable argument to make that can be made without misleading. 

    As to mammograms rupturing tissue etc. - the tissue is not being smashed - the entire breast is being compressed. Our bodies are about 50% water and 'common sense would tell us that that water makes most structures of our bodies quite flexible - if you look at a sperm, for instance, trying to get into an egg - it pushes a lot to get into that thing, our ligaments stretch quite a bit which is why it takes a lot to tear them. Take a raw steak and slowly press down on it, you will get a great deal of "give" - different than hitting it with a hammer which will tear things. 

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited March 2014

    AA, I believe that radiation is a double edged sword.  On the one hand, radiation helps us 'see' into the human body, to find problems and abnormalities.  And radiation has been proven to be effective at killing cancer cells.  But it's also known that radiation can cause abnormalities to develop within cells that can then lead to the development of cancer.  So is it possible that the cumulative exposure to radiation might over time cause some 'high risk' cells to develop into cancer?  Yes, I think that is a real risk.  And I wish we had better information about this.

    I am less convinced that there is an issue with the compression from mammograms.  I know that when we have mammograms, it might feel like our breasts are really being squeezed and compressed, but in reality, I don't think that amount of quick pressure is going to do anything harmful to our breast tissue or the cells within our breast.  Not even cumulatively.  I don't think it's actually that much pressure.  I've been trying to find out how much pressure we get from the average mammogram, and best I can tell, it's about equivalent to the pressure level from wearing a strong compression stocking, but is probably less than the compression from a lymphedema sleeve.

    Fallleaves, in the link from your earlier post,  http://www.pnas.org/content/109/3/911.full , there is no suggestion made that the type of mechanical compression they are applying is in any way similar to what we might get from a mammogram.  As I interpret the study, they were applying constant pressure directly to cell cultures in vitro (i.e. in a petri dish), over an extended period of time (16 hours) - and this is not what happens with a mammogram at all. So I don't think that we can use that study to say that mammograms can cause the development of cancer 'leader cells'.

    In your more recent link, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20545607 , the article references that "cytokines interleukin-6 (IL-6), tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNFalpha)
    and interleukin-1 beta (IL-1beta) are critical mediators of the
    inflammatory response
    ".  So they are not talking about the artificial creation (through external pressure) of inflammation, but instead are talking about a biological process.

    Edited for typos only.

  • Sierra
    Sierra Member Posts: 1,638
    edited March 2014

    my situ was

    i had a mammo

    l4 yrs ago

    dense breasts

    it never found it

    and the doctor never found it either

    it was just a gut feeling i had

    and i went a surgeon as i was on hrt

    and Grade 3 Cancer er-pr-

    so now Im really confused

    should I get my next upcoming one

    best to all

    tks for the thread!

    I am sure I will keep getting them

    Sierra ;)

  • Momine
    Momine Member Posts: 7,859
    edited March 2014

    Sierra, I think you should ask for an MRI.

  • Fallleaves
    Fallleaves Member Posts: 806
    edited March 2014

    No Beesie, those studies weren't narrowly targeted to mammograms, I was just pointing out possible ways mammograms could cause problems. We're never really going to know what's going on in there are we? If we could see, we wouldn't need the mammograms in the first place ;)

  • exbrnxgrl
    exbrnxgrl Member Posts: 12,424
    edited March 2014

    Yes, there are many things that have yet to be studied and I hope that one day they will. Whether we are happy with the current state of affairs or not, that is all we have to base our medical decisions on at this time. This is reality, for better or worse, and many of us can't wait 10-20 years for new research to point us in a different direction.

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited March 2014

    Fallleaves, it would be nice if we could get to a point where we didn't need mammograms!  

    And I'll admit that because I've started to get 3D mammos now, and because 3D mammos use more radiation, the thoughts about rads have entered my mind.  But I also know that because I have dense breast tissue, 3D mammos are much more effective on me.   Based on that, I'll have that mammo because I'm more concerned about catching a developing breast cancer today than I am about the risk that maybe in 20 years all the cumulative rads will cause a new cancer to develop.  So maybe when I'm 77, I will get a new BC because of all these rads .  But first I'd just like to get to 77 (and beyond)!

  • Fallleaves
    Fallleaves Member Posts: 806
    edited March 2014

    Beesie, I certainly hope you make it to 77 (and far beyond), and sans any BC!

  • Momine
    Momine Member Posts: 7,859
    edited March 2014

    I wonder why simple ultrasound is neither studied more nor used more as a screening tool. Anyone know? My own feeling is that the results of U/S may depend more on the person doing and reading the U/S than mammo, but again I don't know.

  • MelissaDallas
    MelissaDallas Member Posts: 7,268
    edited March 2014

    I think because it is just good at seeing certain things like cysts but not very good at others. It seems to me that it is used more to rule out than rule in. When they see stuff on mammograms they can confirm it is just a cyst with ultrasound, but I don't think it works or even shows, some solid lesions. On mine it can't even tell the difference between a cyst and a lymph node. They still didn't know until the core needle stuck it & it started collapsing.

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited March 2014

    Fallleaves, thank you!

    All of us talking here (and anywhere on the board) may not agree on the tactics - how it's best to screen and how it's best to treat - but in the end I think we all want the same thing, which is that every one of us has success with whatever path we choose.  Let's all live long, cancer-free lives.  And maybe we'll still be here, debating other issues (hopefully the mammo issue is solved by then) when we are crotchety old women in our 90s!

     Smile

  • Ariom
    Ariom Member Posts: 6,197
    edited March 2014

    All power to you Beesie! Couldn't agree more!

  • wyo
    wyo Member Posts: 541
    edited March 2014

    Lots to read and catch up on.  

    My thoughts specifically on ultrasound- give it time just like the technological improvements in mammography from wet to dry to digital to 3D.  Ultrasound as a diagnostic tool is still being refined.  For example- the same ultrasound probe you use for a pregnancy ultrasound does not identify the nerve when doing an anesthetic nerve block but now they have probes that will identify a nerve versus a blood vessel, internal organ etc. allowing for pinpoint accuracy to instill numbing medication while watching the needle advance on the screen.  The pregnancy ultrasound has evolved from "what the heck is that" to "he has your chin"  

  • redheeledwomen
    redheeledwomen Member Posts: 97
    edited August 2014


    You're right!  The mammogram didn't save my life.  The information gained from getting the Mammogram and the steps taken afterwards may have saved my life. 

    As recommended I had a mammogram four days after I turned 40 years old.  The mammogram, subsequent US and biopsy found and detected the Triple Negative IDC.  Armed with this info, I was able to make an informed decision on the course of treatment right for me.  Without a mammogram at 40 years old I would not have found the tumor (Stage 1 less than 1cm) which we know with TNBC can be fatal when undetected and allowed to continue to grow and spread.  I'm not concerned with possible radiation from a mammogram that could possibly cause cancer 20 years from now when I had an aggressive tumor that could jeapodize my future today.  I tell every woman I know who is approaching 40 years old or beyond to get their mammograms and to do self checks.  I believe this is the responsible thing to do.  Until other ways of detecting possible cancer (blood test etc) are invented, mammograms may and should be the first line of defense. 

    Thanks for reading and God Bless everyone. 

  • abigail48
    abigail48 Member Posts: 1,699
    edited August 2014

    re:  compression.  long ago my biker mushed my breasts & destroyed the cysts there.  for a time.  they grew back at some point & my breasts did fall.  was it worth it?  oh probABLY, BAY HAVE POSTPONED THE TROUBLE, CERTAINLY NOT PRECIPITATED IT

  • pipers_dream
    pipers_dream Member Posts: 618
    edited August 2014

    I will probably not have another mammo, but don't blame anyone who does need the info.  I'm just more comfortable with uncertainty than most.  I got my first mammo last year in Nov and you may have guessed that it's the one that dx'ed it, but it wasn't even suspicious enough for an U/S.  The U/S didn't show anything either, but the rippling in my breast was worrisome enough to do the bx so they did and that's how I got dx'ed.  Had a thermogram and that didn't show anything either but one thing I heard about thermographically silent tumors is that they are probably not growing and therefore not putting out heat.  I have an aunt who had BC twice and both times the tumor showed up within a month after the mammo, both of which were negative.  One was very fast growing and the other had started into her chest wall.  

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