Study regarding value of mammograms

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  • AlaskaAngel
    AlaskaAngel Member Posts: 1,836
    edited February 2014


    rozem,

    I can see why you personally value mammograms. For some portion of breast cancer patients, mammography is providing earlier options for treatment, and that is no small matter. The question here is, on the whole, is it offering as much (or more) benefit than risk.

  • AlaskaAngel
    AlaskaAngel Member Posts: 1,836
    edited February 2014


    Beesie, I think part of the uneasiness about any of these studies may be in part due to the failure to take a full scientific approach to the evaluation by including an analysis of the degree to which the carcinogenic nature of mammograms may be causing some of the cancers.

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited February 2014

    AA, for me the uneasiness stems from the fact that the pieces don't fit together. 

    For example, if you look only at the women who were diagnosed in years 6 - 25, the data shows that slightly fewer women were diagnosed in the mammogram arm (5.75% vs. 5.81% in the control arm) and the mortality rate per 10,000 for the mammogram arm was lower, at 66.3 women per 10k vs. 71.4 for the control arm.  This would suggest that there is in fact a lower mortality rate advantage to being diagnosed earlier.  However the reason the study doesn't show this advantage overall appears to be because of the higher rate of mortality in the mammogram arm for those diagnosed in year 1.  If not for that one year - the only year in which the mammogram group had a higher mortality rate - it's likely that the results, and conclusions, would be different.  So what happened in that one year? 

    Something doesn't add up.

  • vlnrph
    vlnrph Member Posts: 1,632
    edited February 2014

    Take a look at the 15 or so 'rapid responses' to the original article, available free from the British Medical Journal. Radiologist Daniel Kopans from Harvard gives some history and mentions the study coordinators who compromised randomization by placing women with breast concerns in the screening group! He also confirms their use of second hand machines along with poor technologist training.  

    Another doctor, Albert Einstein's Patrick Borgen stated that major media markets reported these results as a valid challenge to the routine use of mammography which it is NOT (emphasis added). In addition, he described the New York Times presentation as completely unbalanced "the height of irresponsibility".

  • Cowgirl13
    Cowgirl13 Member Posts: 1,936
    edited February 2014

    vln, thank you for your post. very interesting information.  

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited February 2014



    Regarding Dr Kopans....Dr. Kopans has been the leading voice among radiologists who sharply disagree with those who are in the "camp" that believe screening mammograms save fewer lives.  Below is a point of view of the ebook author of The Mammogram Myth, who IMHO lays out well this current debate with respect to Dr.Kopan's position. As I have said, I've grown weary of this debate.  Over the years, as I read the details of the opposing sides, I've become very familiar with most of the debate "players" who include Dr. Kopans.....


    This is included among the BMJ's rapid responses:


    ________________________________________________________________________________

    Re: Twenty five year follow-up for breast cancer incidence and mortality of the Canadian National Breast Screening Study: randomised screening trial

    14 February 2014

    Dr. Daniel B. Kopans' claim of lack of proper randomization in the trial by Miller, et al., 2014 [1] in his response on 12-Feb-2014 is based on a paper from 1995 [2] which found more participants in the screening arm had invasive breast cancer at the start of the longterm study by Miller, et al., 2014 [1]. This bias, Kopans countered, would result in "more early deaths among the screened women than the control women", diminishing the value of mammography. Other researchers, however, were unable to verify the group allocation lapse in the work of Miller and collaborators, a specific criticism promulgated frequently by Kopans and others [3,4].

    Moreover, Miller, et al., 2014, explained in their most recent study paper that "if" there was a bias in randomization at the start of the trial, "the bias would only impact on the results from breast cancers diagnosed during the first round of screening" [1] as these existing excess cancers would have been detected upon the initial or following screening, in a study that went through many screenings and lasted for over twenty years and, therefore, would not affect the results found in their latest follow-up study. Furthermore, Miller, et al., 2014 pointed out that even after this excess of incurable breast cancer is removed from the mortality analysis of the screened participants "the data do not support a benefit for mammography screening" [1].

    Why didn't Kopans mention this crucial set of information in his vehement dismissal of the trial by Miller, et al., 2014 which he equates to a paper portraying a "suspect" analysis of results and "corrupted results"? Doesn't this omission indicate bias on Kopans' side, thus resulting in a display of "corrupted results" and a "suspect" commentary? It can hardly be explained by Kopans' failure to read the actual study of Miller and colleagues as he cites and refers to specific details from their paper.

    Much of the criticism brought forward by Kopans had been addressed and refuted in earlier papers by Miller and colleagues [5,6] yet Kopans and others keep resorting to the same, or similar, misleading allegations.

    In a prior paper of Kopans [7] he stated that the excess of breast cancer mortality, an outcome of the purported biased group allocation of individuals with invasive cancer upon trial commencement, was still apparent after ten years in the screened group of the longterm study lead by Dr. Anthony B. Miller. If this is the case it suggests screening with mammography fails to effectively detect incurable lethal cancers (but rather finds many non-cancers via overdiagnosis).

    In his response, Kopans attributes the "extremely low" breast cancer detection percentage of 32%, reported in the latest analysis by the Miller group, to poor administration of the mammogram procedure, leading to missed cancers. Instead, Kopans claims, "at least two thirds of the cancers should be detected by mammography alone" based on a 2010 study he cites. However, another investigation, using data derived during the 1990s thus more consistent with the study time-frame of the Canadian trial, denoted a cancer detection of 29% by mammography alone [8].

    Kopans describes in his critique how the low detection of breast cancer in the study by Miller, et al., 2014 is a sign of "the poor quality of the mammography" implementation of that study, pertaining to allegedly the use of "second hand" old mammographic equipment and the improper application of the procedure although the Miller team denoted that "the screening examination was properly conducted". The newer mammogram technology of today leads to a higher detection rate [9,10] but also elevates the magnitude of overdiagnosis, increasing the serious unnecessary harm to women via overtreatment. The extent of overdiagnosis from mammography was shown to be both large and significant [11-13].

    Most of the mammogram studies showing a significant benefit are also older, having used old mammogram machines. Does the old technology argument only carry validity and relevance to adherents of mammography when a study doesn't find any meaningful value with screening? Some people would call that bias.

    Kopans belittles an alleged previous notion of the study's [1] "principal investigator" -that is, the squeezing motion of the mammogram procedure can promote the influx and growth of cancer cells, leading to early deaths- as "nonsense" and a "completely unsupportable theory" with "no scientific basis". Yet, robust scientific data, published in prestigious medical journals, have lent meaningful support to the concept [14-16].

    Kopans declared that he has no competing interests in his response comment but he is one of the principal developers of breast tomosynthesis, a digital form of mammography, and an inventor and patent holder (U.S. Patent No. 7,356,113) of a commercial digital breast tomosynthesis system [17,18]. Kopans also has not declared competing interests in other studies he co-authored promoting the value of his digital breast tomosynthesis system [19,20].

    In my own personal, rather exhaustive, investigation of the value of mammography I have encountered numerous instances of omission, denial, derision, and obfuscation of genuinely relevant scientific data by the supporters of screening with mammography, shifting the "evidence" artificially in favor of the procedure. As a result, the general public and particularly women who decide to subject themselves to mammography, unfortunately, have been hampered from making an "informed choice" about this controversial test.

    References:

    1. Miller AB, Wall C, Baines CJ, Sun P, To T, Narod SA, "Twenty five year follow-up for breast cancer incidence and mortality of the Canadian National Breast Screening Study: randomised screening trial", BMJ. 2014 Feb 11;348:g366. doi: 10.1136/bmj.g366.

    2. Tarone RE, "The excess of patients with advanced breast cancer in young women screened with mammography in the Canadian National Breast Screening Study", Cancer. 1995 Feb 15;75(4):997-1003.

    3. Cohen MM, Kaufert PA, MacWilliam L, Tate RB, "Using an alternative data source to examine randomization in the Canadian National Breast Screening Study", J Clin Epidemiol. 1996 Sep;49(9):1039-44.

    4. Bailar JC 3rd, MacMahon B, "Randomization in the Canadian National Breast Screening Study: a review for evidence of subversion", CMAJ. 1997 Jan 15;156(2):193-9.

    5. Baines CJ, "The Canadian National Breast Screening Study: a perspective on criticisms", Ann Intern Med. 1994 Feb 15;120(4):326-34.

    6. Miller AB, To T, Baines CJ, Wall C, "Canadian National Breast Screening Study-2: 13-year results of a randomized trial in women aged 50-59 years", J Natl Cancer Inst. 2000 Sep 20;92(18):1490-9.

    7. Kopans DB, "Canadian National Breast Screening Study", Lancet. 1997 Sep 13;350(9080):810.

    8. Sener SF, Winchester DJ, Winchester DP, Kurek R, Motykie G, Martz CH, Rabbitt S, "Spectrum of mammographically detected breast cancers", Am Surg. 1999 Aug;65(8):731-5; discussion 735-6.

    9. Hambly NM, McNicholas MM, Phelan N, Hargaden GC, O'Doherty A, Flanagan FL, “Comparison of digital mammography and screen-film mammography in breast cancer screening: a review in the Irish breast screening program”, AJR Am J Roentgenol. 2009 Oct;193(4):1010-8.

    10. Nederend J, Duijm LE, Louwman MW, Groenewoud JH, Donkers-van Rossum AB, Voogd AC, "Impact of transition from analog screening mammography to digital screening mammography on screening outcome in The Netherlands: a population-based study", Ann Oncol. 2012 Dec;23(12):3098-103. doi: 10.1093/annonc/mds146. Epub 2012 Jun 27.

    11. Jørgensen KJ, Zahl PH, Gøtzsche PC, “Overdiagnosis in organised mammography screening in Denmark. A comparative study”, BMC Womens Health. 2009 Dec 22;9:36

    12. Gøtzsche PC, Nielsen M, “Screening for breast cancer with mammography.”, Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2011 Jan 19;(1):CD001877.

    13. Bleyer A, Welch HG, "Effect of three decades of screening mammography on breast-cancer incidence", N Engl J Med. 2012 Nov 22;367(21):1998-2005.

    14. van Netten JP, Mogentale T, Smith MJ, Fletcher C, Coy P, “Physical trauma and breast cancer”, Lancet. 1994 Apr 16;343(8903):978-9.

    15. van Netten JP, Cann SA, Glover DW, "Mammographic compression: a force to be reckoned with", Br J Cancer. 1999 Dec;81(8):1426.

    16. Abramovitch R, Marikovsky M, Meir G, Neeman M, "Stimulation of tumour growth by wound-derived growth factors", Br J Cancer. 1999 Mar;79(9-10):1392-8.

    17. Chan HP, Wei J, Sahiner B, Rafferty EA, Wu T, Roubidoux MA, Moore RH, Kopans DB, Hadjiiski LM, Helvie MA, "Computer-aided detection system for breast masses on digital tomosynthesis mammograms: preliminary experience", Radiology. 2005 Dec;237(3):1075-80. Epub 2005 Oct 19.

    18. Acciavatti RJ, Maidment AD, "Oblique reconstructions in tomosynthesis. II. Super-resolution", Med Phys. 2013 Nov;40(11):111912. doi: 10.1118/1.4819942.

    19. Chan HP, Wei J, Zhang Y, Helvie MA, Moore RH, Sahiner B, Hadjiiski L, Kopans DB, "Computer-aided detection of masses in digital tomosynthesis mammography: comparison of three approaches", Med Phys. 2008 Sep;35(9):4087-95.

    20. Chan HP, Wei J, Sahiner B, Rafferty EA, Wu T, Roubidoux MA, Moore RH, Kopans DB, Hadjiiski LM, Helvie MA, "Computer-aided detection system for breast masses on digital tomosynthesis mammograms: preliminary experience", Radiology. 2005 Dec;237(3):1075-80. Epub 2005 Oct 19.

    Competing interests: Author of the (e)book "The Mammogram Myth"

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited February 2014

    I want to reiterate my position with respect to mammography.  I'm not saying that women should abandon screening mammography.  I believe women, as Dr. Brawley has stated, need to understand the limitations of screening mammography and decide with their physician the best course of screening for themselves.  For sure, screening mammograms do save lives.  What THIS debate is all about is the actual number of lives saved for different ages and that is the murky problem.  Once we all appreciate that there IS this debate of how effective population based screening mammography is, then I think more patients like YOU and me, will spread this disenchantment with the medical establishment and begin to ask questions about how we can begin to fund BETTER ways of screening.  But we're not going to have that conversation, until every one of us appreciates that there IS this debate about the current use of population based screening mammograms....Recall too, that DIAGNOSTIC mammograms save MANY lives and that is NOT what is being debated.

  • Shayne
    Shayne Member Posts: 1,500
    edited February 2014

    I agree with you Voracious.....EXCEPT - From what i see, it IS what is being debated, the fact that mammograms saves lives.  I felt attacked on the NPR Diane Rehms link i posted in my post above.....for making that exact statement.  While before my cancer dx I was not a fan of getting mammograms because they are not perfect......getting dx on my FIRST mammogram, and having an early dx, changed my mind quickly and yes I stand by my statement that it DID save my life, because I know I never would have gotten one had I not have several friends dx with BC.

    I also agree with the article about the flaws in the study about the 2nd hand mammo machines......were they not even up to par with what they are using now, and arent the machines now using LESS radiation?  Maybe that's just a side note......

    Studies like this, I feel, undermine young women to get mammograms.......

  • AlaskaAngel
    AlaskaAngel Member Posts: 1,836
    edited February 2014


    Shayne,

    As you say, mammograms save lives -- some lives, including yours and maybe mine -- and there may be certain groups for which mammograms provide higher benefit than risk and some groups for which mammograms provide higher risk than benefit... So it may prove to be "true" for some groups and "false" for other groups -- a situation where a single solution doesn't fit all.

    As you say, the dosage per mammogram likely has improved (lessened) over time -- but in this instance we are still talking about not just dosage-per-mammogram, and instead dosage for aging-with-multiple-mammograms. (Aging in itself results in more frequent genetic errors; add to that the repeated radiation with each mammogram, and the likelihood of more carcinogenic damage goes up.)

    I am aware that the discussion of this study downplays/ignores these possibilities and scientifically speaking I wonder why, since clearly they could interfere with the conclusions of the various studies.

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited February 2014

    Shayne....the mammography debate is a nuanced one and sisters shouldn't attack one another since we are all in the same trench.  That said, none of us can claim with certainty that a population based mammogram saved our lives.  For sure, patients aged 50-69 who have screening mammos derive the MOST benefit. Recall the 2009 Task Force recommended screening for that age group every two or three years and health practitioner, politicians and patients balked, so the recommendation was sidelined.

    Now, with respect to you, if you were less than 50 before you decided to be screened and that first mammo found an aggressive tumor, then YES, it's likely that that mammo saved your life.  But unfortunately for many women between 40-49, screening mammos are less effective at spotting cancers due to breast density. And for even younger women, it's even tougher to spot.  According to the data, younger women diagnosed with breast cancer are usually diagnosed because they are symptomatic and receive DIAGNOSTIC mammograms and THOSE mammograms save lives,  many lives and there is NO debate about their importance.

    However, here's the debate in a nutshell.  If you are 50 and decide it's time for a SCREENING mammo and you have it done, there are three possibilities. The first,  where cancer is found, the second is DCIS or third, you are normal.  There's also a forth, you are called back for something suspicious, but you end up in one of the previous three categories...Now, if you are "lucky" and the screening mammo picked up the tumor, then you can say, "That screening mammo saved my life.". But, you really don't know with certainty that it saved your life until you die from something else.  It's more possible, if it was an aggressive tumor that it LIKELY saved your life.  Now here's where it gets tricky...If it was an indolent cancer, it probably could have been diagnosed once you were symptomatic and a DIAGNOSTIC mammogram would have found it and whether it was found early or later, it didn't matter in the long run because treatments are so good.  But say you had that screening mammo in January at age 50 and it was clean.  Six months later you feel a lump and get that diagnostic mammo and find out you have cancer. Since it wasn't seen six months before on the screening mammo, it is likely to be an aggressive tumor and hopefully it will respond to treatment.  

    So, Shayne, do you see where the controversy is?  Dr. Kopans and his "camp" would like us all to believe that anyone from age 40-69, needs a screening mammo every year, while Dr. Miller as well as Dr. Welch are saying, not so fast.....

    If you believe that that first screening mammo saved your life, that's okay.  But I hope you understand what this debate is truly about and that is, screening mammos save lives, but no one is precisely sure how many!  To me, when I hear someone say their life has been saved by a screening mammo, I'm genuinely happy for them.  As for me, as long as this debate rages, when someone tells me or I have read about a screening mammo saving a life, in the back of my mind I'm really thinking it's magical thinking and when we collectively feel that way, then I think it hinders us from finding a better way of screening....

    Do I think this debate will hinder YOUNGER women from stepping up to the plate and getting that first mammo?  It might.  But those YOUNGER women should know they are the ones who might benefit less from having that mammo.  They deserve to know the limitations of screening mammos.  They should be the ones to jump up and say,"Settle this debate or find another way to screen us!". 

  • MsVeryDenseBreasts
    MsVeryDenseBreasts Member Posts: 100
    edited February 2014

    Melissa, your experience and sentiments almost exactly mirror mine.  I feel the same way.  I'm grateful that thus far there is nothing invasive, but I also feel like I've been over treated.  It's really hard to know when to trust your gut and say "no" vs. when to put yourself in the hands of a medical professional.  Given our circumstance, we know that both the diagnostic tools and studies that the professionals rely upon are pretty inadequate for us absent repeated invasive procedures like biopsies…and yet the tendency for many of these docs is to lean toward conservative management because (to be fair) they do often see bad things that seem to happen for no apparent reason.  Very gray area….

  • coraleliz
    coraleliz Member Posts: 1,523
    edited February 2014

    I noticed awhile back on this thread, how much radiation you get from a mammogram was mentioned. It was explained to me that it varies. Since my breast were dense & wouldn't compress, I had to stay in the vice longer because I needed a longer exposure. Even at the "screening" mammograms I received, they often had to redo the pictures. I also started getting mammograms at age 30. Not sure why. My only risk factor was not having a child yet. All mammograms show in younger women like me is dense breasts, so they would probably miss most cancers. My mammogram reports mentioned that, but still I was told to get another one every year. I did so for 22years! As far as radiation exposure, I'm sure 22yrs worth of mammograms is a drop in the bucket compared to what I received with bilat RADs. I didn't have the patience to use the radiation exposure calculator posted earlier in this thread.

    I read Dr Brawley's book awhile back. I'm even less of a mammogram fan. But I do agree we have become too complacent. 

  • wyo
    wyo Member Posts: 541
    edited February 2014

    This is important discussion on a critical topic.  Couple of thoughts-

    I wonder about the evolution to digital mammo in the past several years.  The quality of the imaging has improved immensely (screening & diagnostic).  The last pre-cancer dx call back I had was specifically because previous imaging was non-digital and they wanted to do more to see if it was just better imaging that made the calcifications look more pronounced or "changed".  I spoke with the radiologist and decided NOT to do all that extra testing. Turned out that was not the breast I developed cancer in though I still have my little titanium marker and plenty of calcifications so we shall see....

    I feel confident in saying that screening mammograms have findings indicative of invasive and non-invasive cancer-So once you know you have it you can do something about it- that is where the treatment/over-treatment starts to edge in. 

     One of the posters nailed it for me- its like a pregnancy test- you are negative "today"- its a snapshot, moment in time and does not give you really any piece of mind going forward into the future which may be why there is an annual "camp so you have that yearly "snapshot" or can look at any changes from prior imaging. 

    Last but not least- I am very very uncomfortable with airport security screening so that analogy did not make me happy- I was concerned before I had radiation but now I am really antsy- I also know they have stopped using these machines in many parts of Europe pending further long-term effects study.  I fly a lot and you get a fair amount of radiation exposure just being at 38 thousand feet several times a month. I have been asking to either go through the "old" style or have a manual screen versus the total body scanner- it is the most embarrassing thing in the world to even ask and I am pretty mouthy Singing 

    First I say- I would like alternative screening- then they call for female assist- that person comes over and says can we do it here or do you want to go somewhere private- ugh no just do it right here.  They think you are just being "difficult" and take forever to come and do it- Finally I said, I just finished radiation for cancer and I am trying to limit my radiation to the least amount possible Thank  You! - It happens the same way no matter what airport and last week I just said screw it and went through the scanner because I was with a whole group of co-workers and didn't want to have to explain. 

  • BrooksideVT
    BrooksideVT Member Posts: 2,211
    edited February 2014

    Also, please keep in mind that with the new digital mammograms, a CAD program alerts the radiologist to irregularities that might escape the notice of a human. My tumor was identified as an architectural distortion by this program.  Also, the new 3-D mammos find more bad stuff along with fewer fase positives.  Anyone with dense breasts might want to make the effort to seek out a hospital that has this new imaging.

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited February 2014

    Wondered what founder of breastcancer.org and also radiologist and breast cancer survivor, Marisa Weiss, MD's point of view was regarding the debate.  Here's what she has to say in a column written for the Huffington Post:


    Garbage In, Garbage Out: A Flawed Study Cannot Measure the Value of Mammograms

    Posted: Updated:

               

                                                                                                             








    A study published in the British Medical Journal (BMJ) denouncing the value of mammography tore through the news cycle last week, leading many women to once again question the need for these breast cancer screenings. What was left out of many of the media reports are serious doubts about the validity of this study, an oversight that gives this research far more credibility than it deserves. The effect of this flawed study is that it is causing considerable confusion that will ultimately put women's lives at risk.

    There are multiple problems with the Canadian National Breast Screening Study, which independent reviewers of the research have pointed out. One of the most glaring is the poor quality of the mammograms used in the study, which were taken in the early 1980s, when the technology was nowhere near as good as it is today. In fact, even for its time, these mammogram images were considered below-standard. There have been major advances in mammography since then, with today's digital mammography providing far superior images than older technology. This is especially important for younger women, who tend to have denser breasts and are exactly the group that was the major focus of this study: women ages 40 to 49.

    Mammography is only as good as the pictures it takes and can only detect cancer if the image is clear enough to see it. Given that this study was based on poor-quality pictures, it is irresponsible to make any claims about the.....                                       

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marisa-weiss-md/garbage-in-garbage-out-a-_b_4824005.html

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited February 2014

    I finally found what Dr. Welch has to say:

    Editor's note: H. Gilbert Welch is a professor of medicine at the Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy and Clinical Practice and author of "Should I Be Tested for Cancer? Maybe Not and Here's Why" (University of California Press) and co-author of "Overdiagnosed: Making People Sick in the Pursuit of Health."

    (CNN) -- We all like to think medical care is about science, but too often it's about professional interests.

    Last week, a 25-year follow-up of the Canadian National Breast Screening Study was published -- one of the eight major randomized trials of screening mammography. The headline was simple: Mammogram screenings don't reduce cancer death rates.

    The reaction by some American mammographers was predictable -- discredit the study. It's predictable because it is exactly what they did when they didn't like the first findings of the study published more than 20 years ago.

    The effort by the American College of Radiology to discredit the Canadian trial relies on two allegations:

    image
    H. Gilbert Welch

    The investigators were cheating: Let's look at the background on this. Randomized trials are a critical tool for clinical researchers. Study participants are placed at random in either one group (in this case those who get mammograms) or the other (those who do not). Who is in which group is solely based on the play of chance -- a flip of a coin.

    The allegation of cheating -- purposely putting women whom researchers knew had advanced cancers in the mammography group -- is an incredibly serious one. It sure was taken seriously by Canada's National Cancer Institute. It launched a two-year independent review of the entire randomization process. In 1997, the review found no credible evidence of cheating.

    But that didn't stop the allegation from being trotted out last week. The new study provides evidence that randomization did exactly what it is supposed to do: It created two identical groups of women. The rate of death in the two groups was exactly the same, every year, for 25 years. That can't happen by cheating -- that can only happen when the groups are....


    http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/19/opinion/welch-mammograms-canada/

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited February 2014

    American College of Radiologists (headed by Dr. Kopans) position on the study:


    BMJ Article on Breast Cancer Screening Effectiveness Incredibly Flawed and Misleading

    February 12, 2014

    According to the American College of Radiology and Society of Breast Imaging, the recent breast cancer screening article (Miller et al) published in the British Medical Journal (BMJ) (1) is an incredibly misleading analysis based on the deeply flawed and widely discredited Canadian National Breast Screening Study (CNBSS). The results of this BMJ study, and others resulting from the CNBSS trial, should not be used to create breast cancer screening policy as this would place a great many women at increased risk of dying unnecessarily from breast cancer.

    Experts called on to review the CNBSS confirmed that the mammography quality was poor (2). The trial used second hand mammography machines, which were not state of the art at the time of the trial. The images were compromised by “scatter,” which makes the images cloudy and cancers harder to see since they did not employ grids for much of the trial. Grids remove the scatter and make it easier to see cancers. Also, technologists were not taught proper positioning. As such, many women were not properly positioned in the machines, resulting in missed cancers. And the CNBSS radiologists had no specific training in mammographic interpretation. The CNBSS own reference physicist stated that "...in my work as reference physicist to the NBSS, [I] identified many concerns regarding the quality of mammography carried out in some of the NBSS screening centers. That quality [in the NBSS] was far below state of the art, even for that time (early 1980s)."(3)

    In this latest BMJ paper, only 32 percent of cancers were detected by mammography alone. This extremely low number is consistent with poor quality mammography. At least two-thirds of the cancers should be detected by mammography alone (4). In an accompanying BMJ editorial, Kalager and Adami admit that "The lack of mortality benefit is also biologically plausible because the mean tumour size was 19mm in the screening group and 21mm in the control group... a 2mm difference." The documented poor quality of the NBSS mammography screening alone explains these results and should disqualify....


     http://www.acr.org/News-Publications/News/News-Articles/2014/ACR/BMJ-Article-on-Breast-Cancer-Screening-Effectiveness-Incredibly-Flawed-and-Misleading



  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited February 2014

    I found this comment following Dr. Weiss's column that tickled my brain:

    "This "flawed" study excuse. I hear this term used when people dont agree with a study. What confuses me is that these studies are all peered reviewed and often published in established journals. Why were the flaws not found in the review?"


    IMHO, this is an extremely powerful statement!  The BMJ is considered among the best medical journals in the world.  The point made by the above commenter is important with respect to how do studies make their way into journals.  Going back in time, the Vioxx debacle led to changes in how studies can now be accepted into journals.  If a study's researcher has any connection to a vested interest, they must disclose that interest.  How a study was funded must also be disclosed.  Studies also must be "peer reviewed."  Now that can become a hornet's nest.  Who EXACTLY did the peer review for all of these "questionable" studies?  I've often wondered about that point.  If the "peers" that  "review" studies have their own biases, then can we "believe" the study?


    Getting a study into a leading journal has become more difficult since the Vioxx debacle.  And yet, "questionable" studies, such as the seminal study published in 1998 regarding autism and vaccines was, twelve years later, rebuked and retracted from The Lancet.


    I think the Mammography debate has just jumped the shark and become a war.  Very.Very.Sad.


      



  • AlaskaAngel
    AlaskaAngel Member Posts: 1,836
    edited February 2014

    VR.... There is a question I keep asking in regard to raising questions about any of the mammography studies and bashing and debate... that others here also have mentioned as at least a potential real concern...

    If any of these researchers are genuinely in fact completely impartial, why have they not raised and considered and documented and debated the very logical and scientifically legitimate question about what the degree of harm is or is not for mammography radiation, especially given the standard recommendation for repeat and/or annual mammography, as part of each one of their purposeful intensive reviews of risk versus benefit of mammography throughout each of these "independent" studies?

    As long as they leave out that question, for me at least their conclusions are not scientifically acceptable as any kind of "through complete analysis". And, in addition, as long as there is NO standard process in place that measures the amount of radiation received for each and every mammogram and is then recorded as part of each patient record, including a recording of cumulative radiation dosage received, I can see no scientific rationale to the failure to do so when it comes to drawing conclusions from any of these studies.

     


     

  • farmerlucy
    farmerlucy Member Posts: 3,985
    edited February 2014

     I am so confused about this whole thing. Truly. What would you ladies do to protect your daughter if she was at high risk? Mine is only 24 right not, and I think too early to get on the screening train, though my mom had BC at 27. (I'm Brca neg.)


  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited February 2014

    AA...I would compose a letter to radiologist Dr. Kopans and see what he and the American College of Radiologists have to say.  I think going forward, the collection of data that you are asking for, thanks to technology, can easily be ascertained and documented and then studied.


    Farmer...what do your doctors say about screening for your daughter?   And, what do HER doctors say?  My radiologist thought that my daughter should start screening ten years before my age at diagnosis.  That would be 43, since I was diagnosed at age 53.  Furthermore, he felt that since my type of breast cancer is best seen on sonograms, he thought that sonograms should be part of her screening.  However, since the current "recommendation" is to begin screening at age 40, then the age 43 has no basis.  Confused?  So are we!  That's one of the reasons why I think this "war" should be settled and they should be investing in finding better ways to screen for breast cancer.  Again, pitch time for Dr. Topol's book......Since my daughter is presently 29, I think it's likely that before she turns 40, this war can be settled.  In fact, as I mentioned earlier, I think this war might become moot, because "imaging" might become outdated as blood tests get better and we can identify cancers through blood "screening" way before imaging shows cancer cells.



    Time to share something O/T that might be relevant to the future of screening for cancer.  A close friend was recently diagnosed with paraneoplastic syndrome:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraneoplastic_syndrome


    Cancers associated with paraneoplastic syndrome:


    http://www.penncancer.org/pnd/subpage.cfm?s=1&ss=2&sss=18

    The Cancers Associated with PND

    Any type of cancerous (or malignant) tumor can cause a PND. Recent studies show that even benign tumors (such as some teratomas) can also cause PND.

    Among the malignant tumors, there are some that are more frequently associated with PND than others. They include:

    • cancer of the lung (mainly the subtype called "small-cell lung cancer"),
    • cancer of the breast,
    • cancer of the ovary and other gynecological tumors,
    • tumors of the testis (called germ-cell tumors),
    • tumors of the thymus (such as thymomas), and
    • tumors of the cells of the blood and immune system.

    In about 60% of patients with PND the neurological symptoms develop before the presence of a cancer is known. These patients are usually first seen by general practitioners or neurologists because there is no past history of cancer.

    The other 40% of patients are already known to have cancer, and they develop the PND during or after treatment of the cancer. In these cases a common scenario is a patient whose cancer is believed to be in remission who develops neurologic symptoms. This strongly suggests that the cancer has relapsed.

    In the majority of patients with PND, the tumor is localized to one site without having spread to distant parts of the body, and the size of the tumor is small. For this reason it can be very hard to find the tumor.

    The type of PND and the type of paraneoplastic antibody (when present) help in some patients to focus the search for the tumor to one or a few organs. For example, if a patient develops paraneoplastic encephalitis and has anti-Hu antibodies, clinical experience indicates that the tumor is usually in the lung or lymph nodes between the lungs (an area called mediastinum). Therefore, in such a patient the diagnostic tests (for example, CT or PET cans) should be those that explore the lungs and mediastinum.....


    ______________________________________________________________________________________



    What's fascinating about the syndrome, is that the cancer in the body is detected through a protein that is wreaking havoc on the nervous system.  Once, the diagnosis is made, patients need rounds of imaging to identify where the cancer is located.  This disease is very interesting because it shows us that cancer can be identified early through blood tests.  For me, the take away message from this is that one day, we will be able to identify who needs screening and how often and maybe they won't need imaging unless a simple blood test tests positive....




  • farmerlucy
    farmerlucy Member Posts: 3,985
    edited February 2014

    Yes yes yes - how I welcome better screening options. Speaking of the blood test - my Genetic Doc is involved in research for that. I think I'll see if I am eligible to enroll.

    http://www.breastmrioklahoma.com/research.asp

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited February 2014

    farmer... Yes!  The kind of research that is mentioned in your link is EXACTLY what I expect will happen, hopefully in the not too distant future!  

  • Fallleaves
    Fallleaves Member Posts: 806
    edited February 2014

    So now I'm looking for studies that show that mammograms do save lives, and I'm really not finding much. Just studies similar to the one that started this thread like this one: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa120680...

    And this one: http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD001877/screening-...

    It just seems counterintuitive that catching cancer earlier wouldn't reduce mortality rates down the line. But it seems like a huge expense (aggregately) with not much return.

    I do hope effective blood tests become the standard soon. 

    The other thing I hope is women with dense breast tissue will be able to skip the mammograms and just have ultrasound, which seems much more effective in finding their cancers. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24471386

  • Shayne
    Shayne Member Posts: 1,500
    edited March 2014

    I know im preaching to the choir here......but when you get the dx of "cancer".......and then find out you DONT have to lose your breast, sorry, but that feels lifesaving to me.  I agree wholeheartedly we need better screening....and yes, maybe, by choice, i was over treated... but .....if my cancer had been invasive, or....if it was non invasive but so large that I lost my breast.....that would have been a major thing for me.  I would have lived, I would have gotten thru it, but not sure mentally and emotionally if I would have "survived" it.  So, in other ways than the obvious, the early detection - my first mammo - did save me......

    Im due for another mammo and really struggling - 

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited March 2014

    Shayne....This "war" isn't about whether or not one should have a mammogram.  So there should be no struggle with the decision to have one.  This "war" is over whether or not population based mammograms save lives.  What the biostatisticians are saying is everyone should know their risk factors for breast cancer and based on their risk factors and age should then know how often they need a mammogram. 


    And yes, emotional issues should be factored into the equation of how often one should be screened.  Don't lament about your upcoming mammogram appointment.  As the Queen would say, "Keep calm and carry on."  I wish you well!

  • Shayne
    Shayne Member Posts: 1,500
    edited March 2014

    Had the mammo and it was all good........ :)

  • TB90
    TB90 Member Posts: 992
    edited March 2014

    All studies are flawed by nature and if that is the only thing I acquired from my university course on statistics, then I gained more than I realized at the time.  When I mentioned this study (Mammograms do not save lives), my specialist responded with, "do not get me started!"  He then went on to state that instead of studying numbers, perhaps researchers would like to meet his patients in person.  He wants to introduce them to the ladies with ulcerated breasts from breast cancer that never had a mammogram.  I respect research and recognize it's value, but equally recognize its limitations.

  • Shayne
    Shayne Member Posts: 1,500
    edited March 2014

    well said TB90!

  • voraciousreader
    voraciousreader Member Posts: 7,496
    edited March 2014

    TB... The study does NOT say... Mammograms Do Not Save Lives!  It says it doesn't save as many lives as we think they should.  The argument is about moving away from population based mammography.

    And with respect to ulcerated breasts because women haven't had a mammogram... Dr. Otis Brawley, the chief medical officer for The American Cancer Society addresses that fact in the first paragraph of his excellent book, How We Do Harm.  Perhaps you and your physician should read the book, if you haven't already.

    Dr. Brawley does an excellent job of explaining why that occurs!  And it has nothing to do with the mantra that Mammograms Save Lives!  Sadly, that has to do with the unhealthy state of how we ALL go about receiving healthcare.  More healthcare doesn't necessarily mean better AND not having access to healthcare or the wherewithal to getting it IS a real issue!  The woman in his book, came into the hospital with her breast in a garbage bag!  She worked hard to support her family and wasn't given the time off from work or family responsibilities to seek medical attention.

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