Not sure where to go with all of this . . . .
I just looked at every forum heading trying to find the one that best fits my problem but NONE of them do. So I don't know where to post this . . . guess I'll start here since DCIS was my original diagnosis. Anyway . . . brief history . . .
DCIS left side in 2003, small size, medium grade, good margins, no rads, no tamox, no mastectomy, so far no problems.
Dec 2012 increasing # of calcifications on right side, radiologist said they look benign, loosely clustered, wait 6 months and if any changes at that time have them removed, if no changes no need for anything else. I went to see the surgeon and she recommended the same as radiologist. I assumed I had a birads 3.
I took home a copy of the mammo report which says birads 4, excisional biopsy recommended, 10-12 calcifications in a 2-4mm area (which btw isn't really "loosely clustered"), went back to the surgeon and told her I wanted an excisional biopsy, she said it wasn't necessary but finally sent me for a stero-biopsy because I was so on edge about this. So three doctors tell me I do not need a biopsy (the radiologist who read the mammo even though she wrote right in the report "excisional biopsy recommended," the breast surgeon and one of the doctors at the stereo facility (as told to me by the girl who called me up to schedule the appt)). Two stereo samples were taken, one showed fibrocsystic changes and hyperplasia (not atypical), the other just showed blood, no breast tissue. I was told all was fine, no problems, come back in 6 months for a f/u mammo.
I just had the f/u and am told I now need an excisional biopsy because all the calcifications are still there. Stereo biopsy is not recommended this time. They apparently haven't changed in the last 6 months which means that the radiologist missed them entirely when she took samples.
Let me tell you, this isn't sitting well with me at all. How could she miss them? Or there is the possibility she did get some of them but others took their place, in which case there would be an increase and not a good thing, hard to say for sure, since the report kind of alludes to an either or situation. They really can't tell for sure because the marker moved. I'm so mad at the doctors for this and for me not insisting I have an excisional biopsy 6 months ago. And if everyone was so adamant 6 months ago about me not needing an excisional biopsy why have they now changed their minds? And if she said if there are no changes in 6 months leave them be why do I need a biopsy if there are no changes?
These are just rhetorical questions. I'm just confused and I don't really expect anyone here to know the answers. What I want to know is if any of this normal? Doctor telling me to wait 6 months but writing in report excisional biopsy recommended, missing calcifications on stereo biopsy, being told if nothing changes in 6 months to let it be, but when nothing does change in 6 months I'm told I need a biopsy, not really knowing if anything changed because they don't know if she got the right spot the first time or not.
Mostly I'm scared and nervous, scared about surgery, scared about being put to sleep and scared about finding I have cancer again. I'm not sure I should even stick with this same team but right now I want to get the surgery over with and if I were to stop and find a new doctor that would only delay everything as well as cost me more money. I like my surgeon, she is one of the best in the area but all of this back and forth stuff and unanswered questions, well, it isn't sitting well with me.
Comments
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It's time for a second opinion. It's a small area. The delay is probably not consequential. At the very least, you need a second opinion on the mammo films (not really films any more). It sounds like you were in the borderland between a BIRADS3 and a BIRADS4, so it's strange that the radiologist wrote BIRADS4, but then recommended wait and see. As to why they originally recommended an excisional biopsy vs. a stereotactic biopsy, the only thing I can think of is that the area is very small or where it's located, it could be difficult to get at the calcs, but that apparently wasn't mentioned in the original mammo report. The third thing that is unclear is why they didn't get at the calcs, and why you didn't know that right away. Here's why. When they do a stereotactic biopsy, depending on the location of the calcs and the size of your breast, when they compress, it may be difficult to get at the calcs from any angle. Usually, they tell you that before they do the stereotactic biopsy, saying something like: "This might not work." At the time of the stereotactic biopsy, they are supposed to XRAY the samples to determine if the calcs were present in their biopsy samples. You should know that information while you are still on the table/in the biopsy room. You should know if they succeeded or not, because they do need a plan if the stereotactic biopsy doesn't work.
I have had this situation several times, where they said that they might not succeed at getting to the calcs. In the end, they have always succeeded. I did have one other situation where a surgeon advised excisional biopsy, because he thought that the stereotactic biopsy would be impossible, and that time I did go straight to the excisional biopsy. It is generally better to try a stereotactic biopsy first, because excisional biopsies are more invasive and do leave long term scarring, which can affect future imaging. Now, as to the borderland BIRADS3/BIRADS4 issue, I had the reverse situation to you. I had a mammo on the contralateral breast (the one without the DCIS), my first since the DCIS diagnosis. The radiologist found a cluster of calcs and I was given a piece of paper which said come back in 6 months to follow an area of concern. There was no BIRADS listed, because it wasn't the final report. I went from the mammo area to see my surgeon for follow-up with her. When she heard that I got the 6 month follow-up report, she called the radiologist, who said that she was "on the fence" about whether to biopsy or not. The surgeon said to her and to me, "why wait? what if it's DCIS again?" so I had the stereotactic biopsy, but in order to have it, the radiology report was written up as a BIRADS4 although it basically said it was being done to confirm benign results (and they were, in fact, benign). So, there is definitely a gray area. Now, like you, I'm going back for a 6 month follow-up.
About whether your calcs are the "original" calcs or different calcs, if they didn't find calcs in the specimen, it seems that they missed them the first time around. Again, that's not malpractice in itself. It happens, due to technical complications in trying to get at the area. What is strange is that they didn't seem to check to see if they got the calcs OR they didn't tell you that. Now, if they don't get the calcs and they are really worried about the area, they should absolutely go immediately to excisional biopsy. In my case, in this last scenario, I told the surgeon that if they didn't get the calcs, I wanted to speak with her before going to excsional biopsy, and she fully agreed. She said the team would discuss options (surgery or wait, etc.)
Bottom line, get a second opinion. Don't worry about the passage of time. Get this straightened out so you can make a decision you are comfortable with.
Best of luck.
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Ballet - thank you so much for your response and input. I agree with you, a 2nd opinion is warranted. I'm not sure when and if that is possible though. My surgery is scheduled and it is really difficult for me to get out of work at this time of the year, a lot of different factors are playing into this.
I think I can clarify things a little - I went back and read my mammo and pathology reports, also some things I wrote at the time of my stereo biopsy so now some things are a little clearer and some more murky.
I am small breasted which is why they recommended excisional instead of stereo. Though after looking at my films my surgeon said I don't need a biopsy and she finally suggested I have an "upright" stereo which is better fitted for a smally like me.
The radiologist came and talked to me after the stereo and said I may need an excisional as she didn't get a good sample. At that time I was quite upset that I wasn't told this until after I was off the table, dressed and ready to go home. Had I known while I was still on the table I would have insisted she get better samples before I got up. There were some calcifications in the sample but the mammo right after the stereo shows the area of concern is unchanged, so who knows what she got. I am so confused by all of this. Because the marker moved (which now in reading back reports I see they knew right after the stereo) they aren't sure if she got the cals in the area of concern or not. They can't tell where they came from for sure without the marker. The latest mammo says area of concern is unchanged from pre-stereo mammo so either she missed them entirely or undersampled. There have been calcifications in this area for some time. Report has always said "remains stable" until the Dec 2012 report when it says they have increased by 2-3 since 2008.
I started getting 3-D mammos in 2011 whereas before I was getting digital. My first 3-D in 2011 shows the area as stable, it wasn't until 2012 that it changed. The latest report says they are more prominent than 2010 (digital) but doesn't say if they were more prominent than 2011 (3-D), in fact looking at the report they compared the latest to 2010 and 2012 but not 2011. If it said they were more prominent than 2010 but same as 2011 than I could blame it on the 3-D but since early reports said no changes in 2011 I guess I can't. Also the latest mammo show 3 benign calcifications around the marker. In addition there is another area of benign calcifications.
I have always been told I am way too analytical. Not just in mammo matter but everything!! So I don't know if I am overanalyzing or not. You have explained that stereo is not a perfect science and I guess it isn't. I wish I had insisted on the excisional right from the start.
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Hi Old Oak Tree, your situation is very complicated. Is it possible to get a radiologist second opinion (having the "films" re-read, not necessarily involving you personally). You have so many issues, it's understandable you are concerned and maybe confused.
About the calcs, they probably should have told you before they completed the procedure, UNLESS, they thought it would be impossible to go in from a different angle, i.e. they'd done all they could. My marker migrated considerably after the stereo during the biopsy last June (it's still in me). They had to do the excisional biopsy based on where they saw the cluster of calcs on pre-surgical mammo. They told me they had the parameters of where those calcs were located based on the original mammo. At the site of the original calcs found by stereotactic biopsy, ADH had been found. When they went back in for more calcs in the excisional biopsy/lumpectomy, they found the DCIS (lots of it--over 5 cm) and calcs were in some of those samples. Then, since I had multifocal DCIS and no clean margins, I finally went to the "big guns" (Memorial Sloan Kettering). There I discovered that the surgeon for the first surgery had not "marked" the margins for location (superior, inferior, etc.) So, the second surgeon had to go in by "feel" or "look" to find where the previous surgical margins were, and then to expand upon them. Since it wasn't an easy situation, there was still one remaining margin that was not clean (previously--the DCIS was at all margins) after that surgery was done. With a third surgery, she was able to succeed, but with this kind of story, now you know why radiation is a must. Who knows what was there and what still remained. This is not an exact science.
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If I want to get a 2nd radiological opinion does anyone know how I do this? Do I have to find a radiologist? Do I ask my doctor to do this? Do I ask the radiological dept? I really have no idea. My old oncologist was the best and she would have known exactly what to do. She retired a few years ago though so I no longer have her to see me through these kind of things.
Or maybe I should cancel the surgery and go to a completely new place, new doctor and all. I am so disgusted at this. Earlier today I wrote everything out that has happened since December. There is more than what I wrote above, but mostly it is more of the same kind of thing (such as my routine MRI in June of this year stated that I need to get regular mammograms, the last one they had to compare my MRI was in Dec of 2011. What the heck, I said when I read that. What happened to my Dec 2012 films, the bad ones that showed the calcifications. On the paperwork beforehand I wrote that my last mammo was in Dec 2012 and I had it at the facility a mile down the street and I mentioned the biopsy I had because of that. Didn't they look at what I wrote?
Part of me says to forget all the analyzing, have the surgery and then, as long as everything comes out okay, if I'm still not happy, get a new doctor. And another part of my says cancel the surgery, start looking for a new doctor now.
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Hi Old Oak Tree, I got a second radiological opinion once with a radiologist who had retired from the practice at the teaching hospital I went to. One of the techs at the hospital got me his information. This radiologist basically did this kind of consultation, post retirement. I know that Dr. Michael Lagios (the one that everyone writes about) does second radiologic opinions. He's in San Francisco, I believe, but people seek him out from all over the world. You could also contact the Johns Hopkins Breast Center. I think they might be able to do it, or any NCI-designated facility in your state or your immediate area. Best of Luck.
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Old Oak...your situation is the same thing that happened to my sister in law recently. She has DCIS...5 years out. Anyway when she went for her mammagram they saw calcifications...one dr said she needed a biopsy but then elected to consult another dr who said she didnt but to come back in 3 months for a checkup. I asked the girls in my BC support group and they said you should always rule on the side of caution but the fact she already had DCIS she could just wait 3 months. When 2 different drs looking at the same thing disagree I would go with the more aggressive treatment - but thats just me. diane
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I realized I really don't have the time or energy for a 2nd opinion right now. I want to get this over and done with, I don't want to delay it. I don't know any radiologists and getting everything to Lagios or anyone else seems a little difficult given my surgery is scheduled for a week and a half away. With the holiday weekend and my busy work shedule for the next week and Lagios's busy schedule I can't do it right now. So I'm going to sit tight and once the biopsy results are in I'll get a 2nd opinion if I feel it is necessary. And if the results are bad I'm going to be darn mad at my surgeon for not doing the biopsy last December when this first came up.
I admit, I am terrified and depressed about this. I have spent the last 2 hours googling "predominately punctate calcifications." One site will tell me they are almost always benign. Another site will tell me they are associated with invasive cancer 50% of the time. I should stay away from dr google. It is what it is and all the reading and speculating won't change a thing.
Diane - how is your sister in law doing? Did she ever have a biopsy? I agree, with a history of DCIS, it is important to be agressive. I think even without a history it's important.
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Just wanted to update you - I got my biopsy results today and all is benign. I am very grateful. I had a hard time coming out of the anesthisia. I am not one of of those people who wake up from it easily. Other than that recovery has been easy, almost no pain at all, haven't even needed tylenol. But I do have a good sized hematoma. I'm still pondering if I should spend the money and get a 2nd opinion from Dr. Lagios.
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"all is benign"-----what wonderful news! so happy to hear it, now celebrate and relax!
anne
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Hi OldOakTree, what a ride you have been on. So glad it's benign. Make sure you get a six month follow-up mammo. That is standard operating procedure. They'll look to see if there are still suspicious calcs in that area (I know you've been down that road before). I was going to say that I wouldn't get a second opinion at this point, and then I remembered that I did get a second opinion once in a crazy situation, where they couldn't "find" what they were looking for when I went for surgery. So, do it if it'll make you feel better.
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OldOakTree, I couldn't be happier for you. That is great news!
As to the 2nd opinon, it really just depends on how you feel after this Dx.
I wish you all the very best with whatever you decide.
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