Dairy or NO dairy
Comments
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I'm confused...... Are low fat dairy products considered okay ? I read conflicting reports....some say no dairy and then other day only low fat . Does consumption of dairy raise your risk of recurrence ?
What has your onc said about dairy?
Thanks for any input!! -
I heard that we should avoid dairy because our milk has growth hormones. They inject cows with hormones to keep them pregnant, so it can keep producing milk. Now I only drink almond milk and ice cream once in a while
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You will hear from a lot of women that dairy is a no-no. That is a common belief. That concerned me, because I consume a lot of dairy. So I dug into the research. What I found, to my complete surprise, is that if there is any connection between dairy and breast cancer, it may be beneficial connection.
This Breast Cancer Risk Factors Table from Komen states that there is no increase or decrease in risk from dairy consumption.
And here's a great article that reviews dozens of studies that have looked at the connection between dairy and breast cancer: Consumption of dairy products and the risk of breast cancer: a review of the literature
Their conclusion: "Differences in eating patterns and breast cancer rates across countries suggest that several dietary components, including dairy products, could affect breast cancer risk. However, dairy products are a diverse food group in terms of the factors that could potentially influence risk. Some dairy products, such as whole milk and many types of cheese, have a relatively high saturated fat content, which may increase risk. Moreover, milk products may contain contaminants such as pesticides, which have carcinogenic potential, and growth factors such as insulin-like growth factor I, which have been shown to promote breast cancer cell growth. In contrast, the calcium and vitamin D contents of dairy products have been hypothesized to reduce breast cancer risk. We reviewed the current epidemiologic literature on the relation between dairy product intakes and breast cancer risk, focusing primarily on the results of cohort and case-control studies.Most of the studies reviewed showed no consistent pattern of increased or decreased breast cancer risk with a high consumption of dairy products as a whole or when broken down into high-fat and low-fat dairy products, milk, cheese, or butter. Measurement error may have attenuated any modest association with dairy products. The available epidemiologic evidence does not support a strong association between the consumption of milk or other dairy products and breast cancer risk."
This article is from 2004 but it's a good summary of all the research done up to that time. All the more recent studies that I found on dairy & breast cancer risk either show no relationship or actually show an inverse relationship between dairy and BC risk, particularly in pre-menopausal women but also possibly in post-menopausal women. In other words, the more dairy consumed, the lower the breast cancer rate. Note however that most of these results are not statistically significant but are directional.
Dairy products, calcium intake, and breast cancer risk: a case-control study in China. January 2011 "Our study supports a protective effect of high intake of dietary calcium on breast cancer risk, and no association with dairy product intake."
Dairy consumption and calcium intake and risk of breast cancer in a prospective cohort: the Norwegian Women and Cancer study November 2010 "Premenopausal women with the highest consumption of white cheese had half the risk of breast cancer compared to those with the lowest consumption.... CONCLUSION: Dairy consumption is not strongly related to breast cancer risk in this prospective study. A non-significant negative association between calcium intake and breast cancer risk was seen, particularly among premenopausal women."
Meat, eggs, dairy products, and risk of breast cancer in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC) cohort. September 2009 "We have not consistently identified intakes of meat, eggs, or dairy products as risk factors for breast cancer. Future studies should investigate the possible role of high-temperature cooking in the relation of red meat intake with breast cancer risk."
Dairy products, calcium and the risk of breast cancer: results of the French SU.VI.MAX prospective study. May 2007 "Our data support the hypothesis that dairy products, through calcium content or a correlated component, might have a negative association with the risk of breast cancer, particularly among premenopausal women."
Dairy, calcium, and vitamin D intake and postmenopausal breast cancer risk in the Cancer Prevention Study II Nutrition Cohort December 2005 "Our results support the hypothesis that dietary calcium and/or some other components in dairy products may modestly reduce risk of postmenopausal breast cancer. The stronger inverse associations among estrogen receptor-positive tumors deserve further study."
Based on this, I eat all the dairy I want.
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I wonder what you think now in light of the attention given the 'latest' study by Kaiser Permanente, that dairy can inc risk of recurrence/death.
You quoted alot of studies, and I really don't have the ability or knowledge to delve into the studies and how they were done, and how and why they may differ from the other studies that show other results. We do know that food studies are so notoriously unreliable re people retelling what they ate or not...and aren't randomized, and we have no idea about the other factors involved in these people's lives that are mitigating factors, and other assorted variables, but here's my take:
it just makes sense to me that consuming foods that have traces of estrogenic hormones, or worse, the growth hormone IGF-1....could help to promote growth of E+ cancer. So I think consuming dairy is bad idea, just like consuming vegetables is the opposite, a good idea, despite the nurse's study etc saying it (vegetables) made no difference....Some things just make sense. Look, I love cheese, but I've consumed enough dairy for three lifetimes already. We all have to make choices with what we can live with. For now, and who knows how long this will last, I'm off the dairy. I'm also off of meat for other reasons (colon etc). It makes protein difficult, cause I'm not substituting soy (! another dodgey questionable thing) but oh well. It doesn't mean I don't eat it once in a while: it's not like I'm religious about it or anything,, I'm just not buying it, nor am I planning meals at home using it.
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The Kaiser Permanente study conclusions were specific to "high fat dairy", not to dairy in general.
"High-fat dairy is generally not recommended as part of a healthy diet," said senior author Bette J. Caan, DrPH, research scientist with the Kaiser Permanente Division of Research. "Switching to low-fat dairy is an easy thing to modify."
"High-fat dairy is generally not recommended as part of a healthy diet," said senior author Bette J. Caan, DrPH, research scientist with the Kaiser Permanente Division of Research. "Switching to low-fat dairy is an easy thing to modify."
High-fat dairy products linked to poorer breast cancer survival
So the author of the study is suggesting that women switch to low fat dairy. She is not saying that women shouldn't consume dairy. That recommendation seems to make sense not just from the standpoint of breast cancer risk, but from an overall health perspective. We all know that consuming high fat products isn't good for us. Except for cheese, which I only eat once or at most twice a week, all the dairy I consume is either low fat or non-fat.
As for the studies I referenced, I provided all the links so that anyone can read the results for themselves. You are right that food studies are notoriously unreliable; that's why I looked at so many studies. And I actually have a research background so I was able to dig into the details of some of the studies. I'm very comfortable with the conclusions and it's important to realize that it's not just one study concluding that dairy is fine, it's study after study after study.
I agree about the concerns with dairy that might have the growth hormone IGF-1. I'm in Canada and it's banned here. It's banned in Europe as well.
Ultimately everyone has to do what they feel is right. I did my research and I'm happy that I can continue to consume dairy products and not have any concerns. You have to do whatever makes you comfortable.
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Thanks for the mention of the new study Jessica. Here's the abstract, according to the conclusion low fat dairy is ok.
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/03/08/jnci.djt027.abstract
I've been comfortable staying with dairy since reading David Servan-Schreiber's book Anti cancer : a new way of life. I have high blood pressure and osteoporosis, both helped by low fat dairy so I had to weigh that into my decision what to do too.
Kathy
eta: Sorry missed seeing your reply when writing Binney, I still eat too much cheese (and ice-cream) but I'm trying to cut down on saturated fats.
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Kathy044: I found his book was very light with regard to dairy and breast cancer. It didn't say much of anything, if I recall. Isn't that right? So I'm not sure what makes you comfortable about it using him as a reference.
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Beesie thanks I do appreciate all the cites as I do have a legal background. Evidence, evidence, evidence, though of a different kind from the medical community. Of course, I know you do realize that lots of bad evidence doesn't make it better evidence.
Also, remember all how tamoxifen was good for 5 yrs only, until it wasn't...all based on very good evidence. So again, going with my 'gut' on this, to channel W. (! sorry about that)
The best evidence to me of course is how in societies that eat low dairy low meat diets, there is little breast cancer. Just like in Japan there's high stomach cancer rates, vs here. Definitely, something to do with the diet, the way food is preserved, the salt, the pickling, what have you.
Anyway, we have to live and enjoy our lives in the best way we can. Clearly diet, specifically dairy, if there is a role, it is small. very, very small. Even if my beliefs sound odd I'm rational enough to realize that.
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Jessica, I appreciate that you prefer to go with your gut on this, and that's your decision to make. But if you are saying that this is a gut decision, why are you at the same time challenging the validity of the research that shows that diary is not harmful?
In your first post you commented that you "don't have the ability or knowledge to delve into the studies and how they were done, and how and why they may differ from the other studies that show other results." The implication from your comment was that the research I provided might be faulty and was not representative of all the studies done in this area. Yet you didn't provide any other research except for one study about which you misstated the conclusions, suggesting that the study was negative to dairy when it in fact it wasn't.
In your latest post you've commented that "Of course, I know you do realize that lots of bad evidence doesn't make it better evidence." Here you seem to be suggesting that the 'evidence' that I provided is bad evidence. Did you read the studies in the links that I provided? I did. The first link was a review of 46 different studies - and I went through the references and read all of the studies that were referenced - and then I provided links to 5 additional studies that I found that came out in the years after this review was done. Are all those studies are bad? Or are the bad studies only the ones that didn't find a positive association between breast cancer and dairy consumption?
Not all research is good and it's important to not take at face value a written summary of any piece of research. It's better to dig into the data, if possible (and it's obviously not always possible) or to at least to look at whatever numbers are provided. Questioning research based on the data is good. But challenging the validity of research just because you don't support the conclusions, and providing no evidence to support your allegations... that's not something that would pass any legal test, is it?
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Bravo Beesie!
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Obxflygirl1 - I told my MO that due to digestive issues, I had switched to soy milk long before my BC dx. She suggested that I give up the soy milk for fat-free, calcium-enriched Lactaid, which I love.
(As for other soy products, she said that she preferred that I did not consume them in great quantities, especially as my main source of protein, but if they were listed way down on the list of ingredients in certain foods, I needn't worry. I'm 100% ER+)
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Obxflygirl1 Well, to answer your original question, I think we can agree that the answer is at the very least (or at the very most, depending on how you look at it), the ONLY kind of dairy you should be eating is LOW FAT and, if you live in the USA, ORGANIC, as it is the only kind without growth hormones known to promote cancer growth (IGF-1). Even Beesie agrees with me on that one, that one should stay away from that. It is used in cow production in the US. The only way to know it isn't used is if the product is specifically marked as such, organic by USDA, which requires this (no growth hormones).
Again, I repeat from above that in societies where little dairy and little meat is consumed, there are comparatively very low rates of breast cancer. However, when people from these societies 'migrate' to the US, their cancer rates match those of the US. This to me is better evidence than any study cited above. You might think the environmental factor is the air, but it is most likely diet.
Beesie, I thought we were agreeing about the problems in such data. The 2004 study describes the problems better than I, not just what you cite in the abstract. I'm not sure what we are discussing any more.
I think you are misinterpreting my comments. I thought we were agreeing about food studies not being very good. So when I said that citing lots of them doesn't make it better, it wasn't personal, it was acknowledging what I thought we were agreeing on: that they aren't convincing. But I guess that was wrong: you do find them convincing? Okay. I don't, and I'm sorry, it's not personal. Your research is wonderful, and very appreciated.
As I thought I said, my decision is based on the general facts I've already stated, and now repeated, with regard to the hormones and pesticides added to the dairy foodchain in the US, and the facts about lower cancer rates in societies with low dairy consumption. I made a joke, which I realize was a mistake, when I said go with my 'gut'. I am going very much with my brain. Inconsistent food studies (notoriously unreliable) which fail to establish a causal link to date do not dissaude me.
You misunderstand me if you think that I have a foregone conclusion I want things to fit into. Believe me- I love cheese, up until bc, if I was stranded on a desert island it is the food without hesitation I would ask for if I could only name one, and I grew up consuming tons of milk. But I won't do it anymore after bc. Would be very happy to believe there is no association. Do not like not eating dairy. Not interested in twisting everything to support some anti-dairy conclusion. I'm very open minded, actually. I just approach everything from a very skeptical vantage point, I suppose. Everything, from the tamoxifen studies that are right (5 yrs is better than 10) until they are wrong (10 is now better than 5), to the lower breast cancer incidence in countries that don't eat meat and dairy, knowledge of harmful and excess hormones in american dairy production, all contribute to what makes sense to me. Then, when presented with inconsistent, limited studies (problematic in the way the 2004 overview describes), I'm not going to throw away everything else I know to be true and say, Yippe, dairy and my favorite food cheese is safe to eat.
Kathyo44 brings up Servan Schreiber and his Anti Cancer book, which I read and recommend generally to whomever is bothering to read this now. But while I don't remember ServanSchreiber talking about dairy at all, I DO know that he said that a bunch of cancer patients told some top epidemiologist "we'll all be dead" or something like that by the time the epidemiologist proved something or other was connected, and the epidemiologist had to agree!!! AGain, these things (associations) are very difficult -- the absence of 'scientific' proof doesn't mean that it's okay.
But thank you Beesie for bringing all the supposed science on the matter to the fore. I just warn absence of proof it's bad doesn't mean it's not. (And note: many of these studies done in Europe etc where cows aren't subjected to the tremendous hormones and and pesticides as here in US-as you said the bgh hormone is banned in Europe and Canada). Apparently there's also an absence of 'proof' re bgh. I guess this is why the dairy industry has prevailed with the FDA against having it banned here. http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/othercarcinogens/athome/recombinant-bovine-growth-hormone
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Wow!!! Thank you for all the information everyone provided. I actually read most of the material cited and I agree that US Dairy is not good for the average person, and even more so for us with BC diagnosis. Low Fat is key,absolutely, also if you are consuming dairy. What an interesting subject for all of us to "digest"...
Most of all, thank you, thank you for everyone's input! Information is a powerful tool and I can always count on BC sisters in having a lively forum ... With all pros and cons . In the end, what is important is doing what's best for "you" as an individual. No one is completely right or completely wrong. We are all trying to move forward in ways that make us comfortable in order to have a new normal.
You girls rock!!! If you ever vacation on the Outer Banks, NC...please let me know. It would be wonderful to meet you!! -
The women in the recently released study that were found to be at higher risk were consuming one or more serving of high fat dairy per day. I only read a summary of this study so I'm not sure if it was adjusted for confounding variables. For example, would these women then be more likely to be obese, eating less fruits and vegetables, or not exercising? Also, would those eating low-fat dairy be more health conscious?
One thing is for certain, dairy products that are as close to their original form; that is, not processed, organic, from animals that are not given hormones, are more likely to allow your body to absorb all the nutrients. As soon as you start messing with what nature has provided, you change the chemistry of the food.
My decision has been to reincorporate healthier dairy products in moderation and mostly organic. To be honest though, I'll never give up that fresh, artisan cheese and my favorite restaurant. I'm not eating it every day so who cares!
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You may also find these links on our site helpful:
http://www.breastcancer.org/risk/organic_living/articles/dirty_dairy
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While I don't touch milk (can't abide the stuff), I do eat other, full-fat, organic dairy products, including butter, yoghurt and cheese. When I ran dairy past my MO, she said that there was no reason I shouldn't continue to consume dairy of the type and quantities that I have been given that - for the most part - I don't eat a lot of it.
Personally, I think we can drive ourselves nuts trying to figure out the "right" thing to do, especially given that nobody - even the researchers - can agree on what is "right". A good balanced diet with the emphasis on plants and portion-control, supplemented here- and there with protein, dairy and grains is what I've decided on for myself.
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5 yrs ago I was diagnosed. I gave up dairy even though I loved it. And now just this past Nov. I am diagnosed Stage IV. I am loving my milk etc once again!!!!
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I just want to add that you posters above all sound very rational. Moderation, variety, etc., is best. I am extreme, and I go through phases, and it's all part of my unhealthy relationship with food, no doubt.
I also just want to clarify from my too long post above last night that when I said, speaking about myself only, that I was using my "brain" and not my "gut" in reaching my decision, it is not at all to say that others who decide differently are not also using their brain. I get that others might disagree and can still be really smart about it, arguably smarter.
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Europa, I'm sorry that you've moved to Stage IV. But I like your attitude!
To me, although I'm a research geek and I enjoy digging through the studies, research results are just one factor in my decisions. This is true whether the research says that something is good for us, bad for us, or neutral. I simply incorporate that information into my general knowledge; I don't base my dietary choices on what the research says.
Instead, for me, it all comes down to a few basic principles that I follow:
* Eat a well-balanced diet. I don't focus on what's good or bad for breast cancer; I focus on what's good for my overall health.
* Avoid artificial ingredients and additives. If there is something I really like that has some artificial crap in it, I might make an exception but I try to minimize the amount of artificial ingredients that I consume.
* Moderation is key. Too much of anything, even something that's good for you, can be harmful. And cutting out things that may increase risk in one area of your health might result in a greater risk increase in another area of your health.
* Don't give up the things you enjoy. For me, food and wine are among the pleasures of life. So I refuse to sacrifice foods that I love, be it chocolate, wine, dairy, meat, etc.. I'm not going to allow breast cancer to lessen my pleasure in life. Why should breast cancer have that power? In fact the lesson I've learned from breast cancer (and other life experiences) is to not sacrifice or delay pleasure because one never knows what's around the corner.
Of course if I ever were to develop a condition where a particular food item could cause serious short-term harm - sodium for those with severe kidney failure is an example that comes to mind - then I would make adjustments to my diet so that I could stay alive. But as someone who is basically healthy (as most of us with breast cancer are), for now those princples work well for me.
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Hi everybody. May I chime in? You may want to watch the Fork Over Knives. It's a research based video about animal products causing all kinds of diseases including cancer. I hardly eat meat but I drink a lot of milk, and loves cheese and yogurt. I now drink unsweetened coconut milk instead of cow's milk. You an watch the video on Netflix or you can buy it from amazon.
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p22nut5, I have seen Forks Over Knives. It's very informative, and I was following the diet until I started losing too much weight. The most interesting thing to me was the information about dairy leaching calcium from our bones...
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wenweb - I still have dairy products but a lot less that before. That's funny that you mentioned about losing weight. I'm not 100% following the Forks Over Knives Diet but what I noticed lately that no matter how much I eat, I still keep my weight
I try to get my calcium from supplements.
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Thanks for the reference to that documentary. I looked it up and in reading about it, it brought T Colin Campbell's book The China Study to my attention. I know that Campbell and his book is a primary source for other material that I've read that's influenced me, but your post and looking up the documentary, then the book by Campbell (as Campbell participates in the doc), motivated me to reserve both from my local library. Have been interested in reading Campbell's book for a while. Noticed library also has the documentary, so I'll check it out too!
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