I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

Blue - Waving back!

"Let them eat cake" seems to describe the situation.

Athena, I'm from Michigan and that's just one of many things concerning healthcare going on here.  Here's another:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cecile-richards/memo-to-michigan-did-you_b_2285607.html

Edited to add:  It's depressing and testimony to my self restraint that I haven't been ranting and raving here.

Even though I have relatives in Mich., I won't be going there any time soon.  Just checked the concealed weapon law in NY state, and my trips across the river will be few and far between.  Sorry, but I just cannot abide the dangerous and ridiculous gun laws in the U.S.  Interesting stat I heard the other day:  the U.K., with very, very strict gun laws, has about 30-40 gun murders per YEAR, as compared to the U.S. with the same number per DAY.  So NRA, tell me please, do your gun laws make you safe?

Ravi Shankare died today at the age of 92.  I had the privilege of hearing him in person in the 1960s. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsuFlxxrX8k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQfYFZOJUCA&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CPjKgW3JloeIgXbY3Uiy0E&index=10

I just ran across great links of where to watch/listen to the 12-12-12 Sandy Relief Concert tonight.

http://www.121212concert.org/broadcast

notself, I'm glad you had that opportunity.

Lewing, it fills me with a sense of betrayal too. Detroit built up our industry and furnished much of our muscle during WWII and this is how we repay those generations of workers and their descendants? Yes, we had to bail them out, but (unlike the banks) they made it worth our while. These people have worked so hard and suffered so grievously from downsizing already. I have never been to the Midwest except for a two day stop in Cleveland, but this hit close to home somwhow....the car economy and its satelite industries and adjoining states have suffered too much already. It feels as thought we should all do something.

99 cent-UTZ sour cream and onion chips = my dinner. Too lazy to do anything more.

edited slightly for minor content - not just the usual million typos

Some background on the Hostess retirement plan situation..

None of the "money" was employee contributed (like a 401k).  If it were, people would be going to jail and a third party who is responsible for holding those assets in trust would have to pony up the money.

The Hostess retirement plan in question is a pension plan that is entirely funded by Hostess.  The retirement benefits are more akin to a "promise to pay" upon retirement based upon the length of service, salary, etc.  Most of these plans dont even entirely fund the plan.  Actuarial calculations are made that estimate how much the employer "should" put aside each year based on employee retirement projections.  However, all those assets are considered assets of Hostess and are subject to creditors should the company go out of business or be sold.  

Is it right?  No.  Does it happen?  Yes.

Just thought you might like the details of how it works.

Thanks Mardibra. Clarification of the legal implications is very helpful. Even if it is still very wrong.

When someone takes a job, the company agrees to pay a certain salary and perhaps give certain benefits, including pension.  If that person does the job but is not paid, the company owes that money to the employee.  Similarly, when that person is promised a benefit like a pension, that person is owed the benefit, just as if that person is owed his salary.  It was part of the inducement to enter into or continue the contract of employment, and the person was induced into agreeing for a lower salary immediately in exchange for the promise of a pension later on.  It is still a contract.   When a company goes into bankrupcy, anyone whom the company has a contract to pay has to line up to get whatever the court deems reasonable, and bankrupcy laws, which I am not too familiar with, gives different priorities to different creditors.  The fact that pensions are not given a higher priority to other contract is a problem with the law.  the fact that Hostess gave bonus and still requested more bonsus for execs while raiding the pension is an outrage. 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hostess-maneuver-deprived-pension-051400720.html 

When unions negotiate pension contributions it is sometimes expressed as wages even though they really are not.  i.e. if my union negotiates $10 per hour for my work they may only give me $8 cash and ask the employer to send an additional $2 to the pension plan.  When that happens, the $2 is still considered employer money.  That appears to be what happened with Hostess.  I would expect that more details will come out soon.

Although im not a union member, my employer sort of does the same thing.  They tell me each year how much they pay me in salary and how much they contribute on my behalf to health plans, life insurance plans, etc.  They add them all up and say that im effectivey being paid much more than my take home salary.  Clever.

I am quite familiar with wage package references but I was interested in their choice of the word "wage" along with the headline, 'Hostess Pension Diversion Could Spell Big Trouble.'

I have read elsewhere employees emphatically stating that it was their contribution but have to proof myself.  Since this just came out I do expect to have more information come out, should be interesting.  I also saw an announcement by Harwood Feffer LLP that they are investigating:

Harwood Feffer's investigation concerns whether fiduciaries of the Hostess benefit plans have fulfilled their fiduciary duties of loyalty and good faith in the administration of the benefit plans.

Robert I. Harwood, Esq. Matthew H. Houston, Esq. Harwood Feffer LLP 488 Madison Avenue New York, New York 10022 Phone Numbers: (877) 935-7400 (212)935-7400 Email:mhouston@hfesq.com Website:http://www.hfesq.com

If you're purchasing gift cards as Christmas presents this year, try to make sure the store is in good financial shape.  Here's why:  my DH frequently gave me gift cards to a certain national (Cdn) retail store.  Two years ago, I went to purchase a couple of items and was told my gift card couldn't be used, because the store was about to declare bankruptcy (2 months hence).  I was livid, because in my opinion, the store had already been given the money, and was in effect, stealing it from me (via my DH) by not fulfilling its promise to provide merchandise.  My only recourse was to add my name to the long, long list of creditors.

Of course, I (and many, many others, according to the firm handling the bankruptcy proceedings) found pursuing this to be a useless endeavour, so we didn't bother.

I find it interesting that some would insist that we are a Christian nation, yet these same people seem to think that what these companies do is OK. Doesn't seem very Christian to me. 

Mary