Heart Medicine Alternatives
Comments
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I"m late now, just going to visit my mother. Back soon.
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Joy, no apologies for hyjacking the thread. We are friends, and what concerns you, concerns me. I understand the problem of not getting help when you need it. My daughter is in a similiar situation. No insurance. I'm glad you have a mo who is sympathetic to your concerns. I like mine as well.
Autism, Gee, I have no idea about blood pressure as it's never been a problem until late. I am not sure what to think or do. My cardio said the other day, he doesn't want me taking the meds before surgery and is ok waiting until afte my heart stress test. I'm not sure why the numbers are high. No reason, other than heart issues due to Herceptin. It would seem it would get better after being off it for 3 weeks. I am so looking forward to the 6 wk mark of no Herceptin to see if my EF and blood pressure drops. I'm not even sure how to check your own blood pressure. I do have a stethscope. All I hear is erratic mumblings.
I hate the idea of having to monitor my heart. I'm mad at Herceptin right now. Life is complicated enough without worrying about heart failure.
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Joy
This is why i try to teach my children to embrace diversity. Different is bad...its just different. And most times an asset. Your research abilities would be a good example.
Now back to ejection fractions...
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autism, I just checked my heart rate..several times. It's 72 to 61. Not bad. A few times it seemed as if my heart stopped and began beatting again. I watched the minute hand as I counted. I just know at my cardio office the other day my bp was 130/100...now which of the numbers is my bp?. Perhaps it differs throughout the day. I wonder if at night if it lowers...due to resting? If I was normal, my bp would be 100/50 ... hopefully it's back there soon. BTW...Thanks for your concern and help...really. I feel like I got the whole bc info together...the heart is another whole issue.
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they are both your bp. The top numer 130 is your systolic pressure...the pressure exerted against your arteries when your heart beats, or sqeezes. the bottom number 100 is your diastolic pressure...the pesure exerted against your arteries when your heart is relaxed (actually when your left ventricle is relaxed) and filling back up with blood. your top systolic will always be higher than your diastolic. so for ef if your diastolic is high that indicates that your left ventricle isnt able to relax as much and therefore wont be able to sqeeze as hard to EJECT the amount of blood it needs to. thats why you need to get that blood pressure under control and the fasted way to do that is with the medicine. once its cintrolled you xan go to alternative methods to make sure it stays that way. hope this helps. and btw high bp isnt the only thing to affect ef but it is important.
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From what I'm reading cyanne pepper is a pretty powerful herbal way to stop a heart problem. I wonder if it can correct heart problems? How To Use Cayenne Pepper To Stop A Heart Attack Fast! Famed healers such as Dr. John Christopher, N.D., and Dr. Richard Schulze, N.D., sang the praises of Cayenne pepper. For instance Dr. John Christopher declared: "In 35 years of practice, and working with the people and teaching, I have never on house calls lost one heart attack patient and the reason is, whenever I go in--if they are still breathing--I pour down them a cup of cayenne tea (a teaspoon of cayenne in a cup of hot water, and within minutes they are up and around)." It should be noted that these men, and many other healers like them, were speaking from personal experience and not speculation when referring to this powerful plant. So what are the best practices in using Cayenne pepper based upon the voice and experiences of those that have actually used it? First the Cayenne pepper must be at least 90,000 heat units or 90,000(H.U.) to be able to stop a heart attack. If the cayenne is at least 90,000 H.U. and the person is still conscious, the recommendation is to mix 1 teaspoon of cayenne powder in a glass of warm water (this is essentially a "cayenne tea"), and give it to the person to drink. If the person is unconscious then the recommendation is to use a cayenne tincture or extract, again of at least 90,000 H.U., and put a couple of full droppers underneath their tongue full strength. As noted above by Dr. Christopher, in 35 years of practice he never lost even 1 heart attack case if the person was still breathing when he arrived, and he attributed Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/030566_cayenne_pepper_heart_attack.html#ixzz21QLnmDPn
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After reading on Dr. Google signs of heart failure and heart attack, I'm very concerned. I have most of the symptoms, which are
Strong heart palpitations, fullness in chest, pressure, breathless, sometimes pain, burning under ribs area, sometimes I wake up night sweating, and generally don't feel well.
I'm glad I have the chemical stress test on Friday. I'm going to be taking cayenne pepper every day. I did pick up my heart meds today, but cardio agreed to wait to take it until after surgery.
I asked the pharmasist today why two different pills to do the same job. She said one was for the heart muscle and the other was to lower my blood pressure.
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Im pretty sure cayenne pepper causes vasodilation so in esence its about tye same as giving someone a nitroglycerin pill if they are experiencing anginal chest pain. That would not repair heart muscle. It just temporarily inceases blood flow to the heart.
I could be wrong though. Look up what the physiological response is to it. -
Reasons To Use Cayenne
1. Strengthens the heart, even stops heart attacks in progress
2. Increases blood flow and cleans arterial wall plaque while rebuilding red blood cells
3. Aids digestion, even helps eliminate ulcers (surprise!)
4. Stimulates the liver and helps heal the gall bladder
5. Kills prostate cancer cells and shrinks tumors
6. Anti inflammatory eases arthritis
7. Shrinks hemorrhoids
8. Topical application on open wounds stops bleeding
9. Emulsifies triglycerides
10. Anti fungal, promotes waste elimination
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/028954_cayenne_tonic_herbs.html#ixzz21QTeaI3E -
autism, I read that as well. Right now, it's what I need. I feel lightheaded and dizzy most of the time. It's worsening day by day. I hope it helps my blood circulation. I have a workshop this week, so I need to feel well. Thanks for all your imput...very helpful.
Need to get some shuteye. Almost midnight, but took two naps this afternoon. Before all this it was a rare day in May when I napped.
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okay but WHY does it do those things. Sorry I cant look at the link cause im on my kindle and other websites come up too small to see.
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autism...I don't know why. I do know it's worth a try. I just want to feel well. I did take a turmeric before going to bed last night. I do feel better this morning. My daughter has been trying to get me to take them. I've been reluctant to add anything else to all the supplements I"m taking. Plus, I do didn't see the sense in it. After reading more about it last night, I'm ready to at least see if it helps. I'm going to stop by the health store on the way home from work today and see what else they have other cayenne products.
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Well if it makes you feel better thats wonderful. But remember to watch that blood pressure
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THE CONSTITUENTS OF CAPSICUM/CAYENNE PEPPER
Vitamin A, Vitamin C and Alkaloids known as Capsaicin are the constituents of Capsicum/ Cayenne pepper.
The University of Arizona Cancer Centre reported that the results of a study they had conducted showed that Vitamin A reduced cancerous lesions of the mouth. It may also help people with oral or oesophageal cancer caused by excessive tobacco smoking and alcohol drinking.
Vitamin A is needed for good vision. It helps to create visual purple with is needed for night vision.
Vitamin A heals inflammation of the eyes, smoothes rough skin, and clears acne. It helps to reduce wrinkles and heals wounds. Strengthens bones and teeth and is good for the lungs.
Vitamin A is the most potent killer of free radicals, especially one called singlet oxygen that causes the aging of cells. It also heals disorders of the stomach lining. E.g. Ulcers.
Vitamin C helps to clear blood clots in veins. Helps to prevent heart disease by eliminating plaque from the arteries. Helps to heal wounds. Helps to prevent colds
It is not advisable to take huge doses of Vitamin A. So buying and taking supplements of Vitamin A is not recommended.
CAPSAICIN is what causes burning sensation. It also causes the brain to activate the salivary glands and endorphins, the body's natural painkillers. These endorphins give us a feeling of pleasure. In time our tolerance of chilli heat increases and we are able to take more.
CAPSICIN is the main ingredient in some pain killing creams. For pain relief from Arthritis, and Diabetes nerve damage. It is also an anti oxidant which helps to stop cancer cell growth. Studies have shown that Capsaicin found in chilli peppers causes tumour cells to die by starving them of oxygen.
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I think what seems to be lost in many of the responses here is that evebarry's heart issues were a direct result of the Herceptin that she was given to treat the breast cancer, and she has at this point stopped the Herceptin, so the damage is not ongoing and worsening as it likely would be without treatment if it were caused by lifestyle or genetic factors.
This is a very different situation than one that involves damage that has been building up over a period of years, and cardiac damage done by the Herceptin frequently resolves on its own given time.
After that experience of damage as a direct result of a medication, starting two new (to her) drugs that each have significant side effects on their own to treat a condition that is likely to right itself is a daunting proposition. She came here looking for support, and perhaps ideas for less drastic ways to help her heart function improve more quickly.
Stress is a well known cause of elevated blood pressure, so anything you can do to reduce your stress level, including but not limited to exercise, meditation, and prayer if you are a believer. For many people, avoiding salt and caffine are also helpful with blood pressure.
You also might try getting a home blood pressure cuff to allow you to track what foods and activities affect your blood pressure. If your blood pressure at home is significantly lower than at the doctor's office, that may be an indication of white coat syndrome where your blood pressure is elevated by the experience of going to the doctor. I had that with my former PCP. My pressure was consitently higher at his office than at home or at any other doctor's office or hospital setting.
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I don't have info on alternatives, which is the subject of this thread, but thought I would post this as being some general info about trastuzumab and heart effects:
http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD006243/efficacy-and-safety-of-trastuzumab-in-early-breast-cancer
(Okay, now back to alternatives....)
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evebarry
patsmom is right. It very well could be white coat syndrome that is causing the high bp. I think it would be a great idea to see if it is better at home. You were initially concerned about your ef. 45% is really not that bad. I know you would like it to get back to normal and being off the herceptin may very let it do that. But you also postes about your high bp which is not only bad for your heart but your arteries as well. However you go about doing that. I hope that you can do that without the meds but please dont let it go on for too long and let it cause permanent damage. I wish you all the best. -
PatMom, thanks for the reminder that this is caused by Herceptin which has been withdrawn as that information was getting lost on the last page.
Autistic-mom, you pointed out the EF is only 45% but the breathlessness is concerning if it's getting worse. In the Cochrane report that AA linked to, it says... These heart toxicities are often reversible if the treatment is stopped straight away. The key word is "often" and I hope stopping the Herceptin is enough.
Eve, my concern is that extra stress could strain your heart and it could become a permanent condition, which is why I'm pleased to see you will start the drugs after your surgery if the condition worsens though your tendency to suffer strong adverse effects is worrying. You are following your cardio's instructions by waiting till after the surgery.
Self monitoring could be a problem as the cuff shouldn't be used on any arm that is at risk of lymphedema and your knowledge of blood pressure is limited. You can always get your doctor or the clinic nurse to monitor it for you as long as they allow for the lymphedema risk. I have mine taken on my thigh as I have two at risk arms.
My husband was in denial about his high BP for years, claiming it was just white coat syndrome. My pleas for him to see his doctor were ignored till it was too late and he had a mild heart attack. But yours is recent and you're not overweight so hopefully it's just temporary.
If it was me, I'd be taking leave and avoiding all stress for these next few weeks as they are critical to your future health. It's not something you can undo in the future.
I'm sending you lots of healing and soothing thoughts. In a month or so this should all be behind you.
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I'm all about nutraceuticals, but I really think you should be taking the heart meds. These symptoms are very worrisome. Most people who have temporary heart damage don't particularly have symptoms, just a low EF. The fact that you are having symptoms means that things may be more serious than the typical case of Herceptin-related heart damage. I also don't think this is white coat syndrome. I think taking cayenne pepper is like bring a cup of water to a forest fire.
It's your body, of course, but I'm worried.
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evebarry...im with sweetbean. seriously, I dont know you. This thread just cauht my eye with the ef because Im an echo tech. But know you or not I am worried about you. I am all for alt treatments. I mean, its not for me but thats the beauty of this world. Were all so different and still manage to coexist. And I really do understand about med reactions. Ive had some myself. It sucks and its scary. But the hemodynamics in the body is a very tricky business. Unless you have a VERY strong grasp on cardiovascular health I think you need to listen to your cardiologists on this one. Its not forever. Its just to get you over the hump. Please take care of yourself.
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Sweetbean, I agree the supplement suggestions may be far too mild for this and you just agreed with me that the worsening symptoms are the important factor. I'm also worried but that's not helping Eve.
If you read the whole thread you'll see that Eve has been asked by her cardiologist to wait till after her surgery to start the drugs. I have every faith that Eve will decide for herself what to do with the help of her cardiologist and PCP. She followed doctor's orders to take Herceptin and look what it did. She followed doctor's orders to take bisphosphonates and had a huge allergic reaction. So now she is being understandably cautious and I'm sure her specialists will be able to take that into account when advising her.
Eve, you quoted the capsicum/cayenne pepper article but the amount of Vit A and C in a capsule would be a fraction of what you can get from a bite of carrot and a segment of orange. The medicinal qualities are the only ones worth noting and you could only find out how it effects you by trying it and having your BP and MUGA monitored by specialists. The question is whether you have the time to do that given that any deterioration could be irreversible while waiting for tests and results.
One factor not mentioned yet is your thyroid problems which may be influencing your BP. Someone else mentioned to me that they were Dx'd with CHF but it turned out to be thyroid problems and their heart is fine now.
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Thank you for your caring remarks.
Before Herceptin, I was highly energetic known as the energy bunny. I've patted myself on the back that I could keep up with the kids. I had a echocardiogram a few years back and was told I had the heart of an athlete. I thought of my siblings I was the lucky one not to have a cardio dr or heart issues. I will admit that the biggest reason to be concern about Herceptin is because my family has heart issues. I have a younger sister who had heart failure in her early 50's and had a heart transplant. Two of my three bothers had a heart attack and are on heart meds. The other brother is on heart meds, and my older sister on heart meds. I'm the only one that leans to holistic medicine, and alternatives. They do only as the doctors says. I had rhematic fever as a child, and thus far was the only one somewhat heathly with no heart problems. My blood pressure was usually on the low side. Before Herceptin my bp was 50/100. I had the doctors asked how I even had the energy to get out of bed. I had a lot of energy. I admit, I was a adrendaline junkie...always running and in the middle of something exciting.
My bp was low normal when I began herceptin. Mid my first herceptin infusion my bp went way up. At that point they gave me an infusion 30 minute break and steriods. My bp was never below normal after beginning Herceptin treatments. Most of the times the nurse said the bp was normal, which was unusually high for me. So...I don't think I have the white coat syndrome. Like I said, in the pass my bp was low. Since mid June my bp has been high.
I don't think I'm the kind of person to stress. I am pretty easy going. My faith in God (Christian) keeps me centered. I am the ceo where I work. I delegate a lot of jobs to office help and administrators. Everything is going smoothly and well at work. I'm spending less time right now running here and there due to fatigue. I come home from work everyday and nap...rarely ever did this before Herceptin. I spend the evening just hanging out because I don't have the energy to do more. I do hate this because I have a lot to do that I can't do because of dizzy spells and light headed and heavy chest...all new symptoms.
I am thin, although I've gained almost 8 lbs on Herceptin. I'm now about 142 to 144, and I was around 136 (5'8") I rarely eat bread and try to stay from gluten. So...I believe that most of my problem is due Herceptin to low EF, and possible thyroid problems. I admit, I rencently ran out of thyroid meds, but I'm back on them again (about a week).
I got a call today that they want to reschedule my reconstruction surgery for a few weeks. I feel mixed about it because if I really do need the meds, I can't take it until after the surgery, and that could be sometime late August. Once I am on the heart meds, my cardio doctor doesn't want me stop for 6 wks followed by another echo. I fear if I am on the heart meds my bp could drop too low and I don't want this happening during surgery. Mid June it was 96/130... recently 100/130.
My cardo dr. ordered a chemical stress test to look at my arteries to make sure it's not more than herceptin. He also said those who have thyroid issues often have heart issues.
You all are right. I know very little about the heart. I just don't want to make things worse than they are right now. It is possible that if my problem is only herceptin my heart could recover. I fear taking heart meds could mess up what isn't totally broken.
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Hi Eve - I actually got out of bed to come back to computer and see your thread. Intended to get here earlier today.
I hope you go to a naturopath who can get you in asap. You need to heal, and I believe there are ways, but the heart is nothing to mess with or try to hold out on.
I will share what I know.
I have lived with this before. Spent three years with heart problems, on bp meds some of the time. Even then, I was carrying around a medicine bag for emergencies so I could get to the ER alive. It was bad, and the end result was I had undiagnosed hypothyroid and was told I had congestive heart failure. Water around heart, heart murmur, no way out, doc said.
Discomfort, pressure, feeling like no air, night sweats, weakness, high bp, then LOW bp, I remember, it was scary. I got a handle on it with alternatives along with medical rx, but finding the right combo was difficult.
There is a blood test for CHF and my new gp did it and it was not chf, and she tested for thyroid and it was off charts killing me, I was so bad I did not know if I could walk sometimes. (This was before I got cancer and lost my memory, by the way)
At one point, while stilltold cfh, the dr put me on bp meds I did not need and I spent 5 days in hospital and felt like I never recovered from what they did to my heart until I finally got on the thyroid meds and was better in a week.
Will try to bullet a little of what I learned in trying to save my life.
- CoQ10. I use it to this day, I take the Vitol Q10 Liquid 200 IU. It is more bioavailable, under tongue. I take 800 IU a day, per the integrative MD/pathologist I see. Then am off a few days, as needed. But I never have issues for two yearss, none.
- a real MD who was naturopathic and medical doctor put me on Cardio VH which is available through a doctor only, but it has in it ruawolfia and here is a link for some over kill info, but it is powerful and can be purchased in extract. Can you get to a naturopath and get some help? http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ajps.2011.393.400
- I took hawthorne too, esp in Hannah Kroeger's CircuFlo that also had selenium. That stuff was amazing. But I am sure there are some great heart tonics now, just don't follow along on those.
- Had the capsicum all the time in case I needed it for emergencies, and the baby asprin too. Used it many times.
- A sprayer for asthma attacks (alternative) is available at some health food stores, I used this a lot when I could not breathe. Also found in those times that if I moved around I was better off, but that was me. And preferred cool open air.
- I kept a bottle of homeopathic arnica in my pocket all the time strength 200c in case I had a heart attack, as it helps the bruising that happens, thus a quicker recovery. And I kept Rescue Remedy by Bach or Five Flower Formula by Flower Essences USA. And I was always aware of how to get the medics soonest. It was that bad.
I understand completely where you are coming from by being wary of treatment, completely, been there a few times. To heal instead of being on meds for life, then please do consider a naturopath who is good, one who is an MD is better, and I hope you will heal completely. I know that I have. But also consider that you need medical help now, it is a true pressing health issue.
Thinking of you.
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Thank you Diane for the info. I agree about the thyroid. It could be. I had run out of one of the two thyroid meds I take. I was without one of my thyroid meds for a week. It may have caused some of my problems. Although I am hypothyroid, I have very few symptoms, such as weight gain, dry skin, and my hair is still full. But, my blood tests without thyroid meds are dangerously low. I haven't seen difference in taking thyroid meds. Perhaps, not having one for a week made my already heart issues from Herceptin worse. I don't know.
My naturalpath wants me to make an appointment with her asap. I will call tomorrow and make an appointment. Friday is the chemical stress test. It last 3 hours. The echo on Monday. My reconstruction surgery Tuesday. The plastic surgeon wanted to change it due to more pressing surgeries, but there's not another time in August where I can fit into their schedule. After school starts it will be just about impossible to fit in the surgery. I just want to get everything done before school starts. I like the idea of being done with treatments, doctor appts and health concerns. I want to move on. I have a lot of great things happening this year. There's nothing more I want then to get back to normal.
I am taking heart supplements. I went to a chiropractor today, and he massaged me with capisum cream. Also, taking coq!0. Today was better. Not as many dizzy spells, or did I take a nap when I got home. I can see normal ahead.
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Just to say I had the stress test Friday. I have no idea what the results are. I haven't heard back from the doctor. But, I did have a echo this morning that was scheduled by my oncologist in June. The nurse said my blood pressure was down to 40. This is without taking the heart meds. I am so curious to what my EF is right now. Apparently the blood pressure has dropped and maybe I won't need to take anything for high blood pressure.
And..last Friday, my blood pressure was high.
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40!!! You'd be on the floor in a faint or in ICU, LOL. Under 90/60 is considered low and would have your head spinning much below that. You must mean some other reading.
I know you must be busy with the surgery soon so I hope all the readings are good.
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I took CoQ10 during and for awhile after Adriamycin to protect the heart from future failure. It was 290 mg per day. I am a medical coder and I do see people who need a transplant 10 years later. That is of course not Herceptin, but I think the CoQ10 is probably a good idea. I guess I will know in about 3 years if it saved my heart! Good luck to you. I will pray that your heart heals and that surgery goes well :-). Heidi
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