Let's Talk LE Statistics

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babette54
babette54 Member Posts: 65
edited June 2014 in Lymphedema
Let's Talk LE Statistics

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  • babette54
    babette54 Member Posts: 65
    edited June 2012

    I visited a LE therapist today.  I do not have any signs of lymphedema but wanted some proactive advice, especially since I start rads next week.  My confusion is about the various stats that I have been told and have read regarding the probability of developing LE.  I know that the probability goes up when a woman has many lymph nodes removed and has radiation.

    The probability seems to range from 5-40% depending on who you talk to or what you read.  My LT told me today that ALND = 20% lifetime risk and that rads to the underarm = 20% lifetime risk.  Overall, it appears that my lifetime risk is 40% according to him.

    Why are the numbers given by my surgeon and RO so much smaller?  What stats were you ladies given?  I'm confused.

  • moogie
    moogie Member Posts: 499
    edited June 2012

    Here is the thing with Le and statistics: they do not matter if you get it. Any there is no true way to figure out if you will get it because there have not been enough considered, long term exhaustive studies on lymophatics or LE. Even the SNB stats are very limited because who is actually calling folks 2,4,or 6 years later to see if LE develops? and how many PCPs know LE when they see it?

    I was where you are, and my approach was just to do the common sense precautions listed, get training with an LE PT and measurements before I have an issue, and if ( and when in my case...) it appeared I would be prepared to handle it. Some ladies have many nodes removed and never get it. Others like me lose just a few and it arrives. It appears to be a physiologically complex disease, with many treatment factors and many person physical factors involved.I personally think some of us have delicate lymphatics to begin with...maybe some existing inflammatory isssues, and simply could not take any major hit to them.

  • kira66715
    kira66715 Member Posts: 4,681
    edited June 2012

    Babette: the confusion is because there is no single definition of lymphedema--so, when everyone uses different criteria, the numbers are going to vary widely.

    Common diagnositic criteria are 1) 5-10% limb volume increase (although our limbs can vary by 7% naturally and if the swelling only involves a portion of the limb, the volume overall won't reflect it), 2) a 2 cm difference at any one point in the limb--when Jane Armer did her great study on 250 women for almost 8 years, 91% had a 2 cm difference at any one time, 3) symptoms: heaviness, achiness, warmth, swelling--that's pretty sensitive and there are validated surveys for it, and 4) loss of architectual landmarks--smoothing of the elbow, loss of tendons on the hand and inside the wrist.

    Right here, on bc.org, they addressed the fact that there is no single way to diagnose LE:

    http://www.breastcancer.org/treatment/lymphedema/evaluation/diagnosis.jsp

    According to Andrea Cheville, MD, associate professor of physical medicine and rehabilitation at Mayo Clinic, it's important to look at the whole picture: not just size and volume measurements, but the appearance of the limb or other body part. "There is no one value or standard you can use to say, ‘OK, if you meet that you have lymphedema, and if you don't, well then you don't have it,'" says Dr. Cheville. "For example, there may be no size or volume changes in the arm, but you could have subtle hand swelling or pitting on the arm. So it's important not to be too locked into arm measurements alone, as that can create a false sense of security. You also need to be watching the arm and looking for the loss of what we call ‘anatomic architecture' - an inability to see the veins and tendons in the arm as clearly, or less pronounced knuckles, or skin that is less wrinkled and therefore looks younger." 

    One of the LE therapists near me does the five point test: pull the skin on the top of the hand, compare forearms, compare elbows--and I don't know the other 2 steps exactly.

    So, you'll find in the medical literature, the incidence of LE varies WIDELY, and that's because there is no one way to diagnose it.

    I was told I had a 7% chance. Yet, I see 20% when you put SNB plus rads. All I know is when it happened to me, it's 100%.

    Kira

  • carol57
    carol57 Member Posts: 3,567
    edited June 2012

    Here's a discussion that is based on a variety of studies, and the one by Shah and Vicini is actually a very well done study-of-studies (and they conclude that the apples-and-oranges problem that Kira describes makes it nearly impossible to compare studies). You can see from this discussion just how far apart the LE incidence ranges are, depending on nature of the studies:

    Breast cancer treatments and BCRL risk

    BCRL risk factors seem to be additive: A woman with breast conserving surgery and no other treatment has less BCRL risk than a woman receiving breast conserving surgery with axillary node dissection and radiation. Increasing the number of nodes removed also increases BCRL risk (Paskett et al)[i]. Sentinel node biopsy, which removes one to seven nodes, brings a lower risk than axillary node dissection, when 25 or more nodes might be removed.

    Shah and Vicini (2011) summarized lymphedema incidence ranges with various treatments, in their BCRL-study review: [ii]

    Lumpectomy alone  0-3%

    Lumpectomy with SLN and breast RT  3-23%

    Lumpectomy with ALND and breast RT 1-61%

    Lumpectomy with regional nodal RT 9-65%

    Mastectomy with SLN, no RT  3-23%

    Mastectomy with ALND, no RT 30-47%

    Mastectomy with regional nodal RT 58-65%

    ALND with axillary RT 32%

              ALND = axillary node dissection   SLN=sentinel node   RT=radiation therapy

    Most BCRL studies focus on arm lymphedema, which is readily measured once past Stage 0, or subclinical BCRL. However, many breast cancer patients develop lymphedema of the breast or trunk, with or without arm lymphedema. One year after surgery, Ronka et al (2004) found breast edema identified by clinical examination in 48% of patients with axillary clearance/ positive nodes; in 35% with axillary clearance/ negative nodes; and in 23% with sentinel node biopsy. Using ultrasound, they found subcutaneous breast edema in 69-70% of the axillary clearance node patients and 28% of the sentinel node biopsy patients.[iii] Sentinel node biopsy reduces arm lymphedema risk compared to axillary clearance, but it poses a significant risk for breast lymphedema.

    References are below--

    Carol


    [i] Paskett ED, Naughton MJ, McCoy TP, Case LD, Abbott JM. (2007) The epidemiology of arm and hand swelling in premenopausal breast cancer survivors. Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers & Prevention, 16(4): 775-782.

    [ii] Shah C, Vicini FA (2011) Breast cancer-related arm lymphedema: Incidence rates, diagnostic techniques, optimal management and risk reduction strategies. International Journal of Radiation Oncology·Biology·Physics, 81(4): 907-914.

    [iii] Rönkä RH, Pamilo MS, von Smitten KA, Leidenius MH. (2004) Breast lymphedema after breast conserving treatment. Acta Oncologica. 43(6):551-7.

    (edited because the first post did not render the incidence-range table very well, so I retyped it without table formatting)

  • carol57
    carol57 Member Posts: 3,567
    edited June 2012

    I should have clarified that BCRL refers to breast cancer-related lymphedema, just in case someone new to this crazy condition is reading my prior post.

  • babette54
    babette54 Member Posts: 65
    edited June 2012

    carol57 - Thanks for your informative reply to my request for information.  I agree that defining and measuring LE is difficult if not impossible to do.  In the study you cited, the percentages for the various categories include a wide range of numbers.  Since I have no signs of LE as of now, I hope the numbers at the lower end are the most accurate.

  • SpecialK
    SpecialK Member Posts: 16,486
    edited June 2012

    Another factor for lower percentage reporting by surgeons and RO is that often by the time someone develops LE they have moved past seeing these docs on a regular basis, so the existence of LE in their patients may not be known to them.  Also I think a significant number of surgeons take patient reporting of LE symptoms as an affront to their surgical skill, and so they downplay the stats, particularly their own.  I discussed my LE symptoms with my surgeon, but ultimately the referral for LE PT came from my MO.  I did have ALND in a separate surgery from my BMX - my node issues were found on the BMX post-op pathology, but I did not have any rads.

  • carol57
    carol57 Member Posts: 3,567
    edited June 2012

    Babette, keep in mind that you can influence your risk somewhat, as moogie said, by taking the common-sense precautions.  I earnestly wish you to have lifetime membership in what I call the '60% Club.'  Many of us feel we might have avoided triggering our LE had we only known what to avoid/what to do.  It's impossible to say if we might have avoided it altogether, but there's no downside to LE precautions such as avoiding skin breaches, sunburn, lifting heavy weights with an unconditioned arm/trunk, etc.  Keep on asking questions and reading what you can find!

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