No Touch Breast Scan
Just had this scan at my gyno's office, newly approved by the FDA. It is a type of thermographic screening. Areas of increased vascularity, possibly indicative of future tumor growth, light up. I am wondering if anyone else has had this or a similar thermographic scan. I had a stereotactic biopsy last February on the left breast, at 11:00, that revealed a very small focus of ADH. The excisional biopsy a month later was completely clean-- the needle biopsy removed it all. Last May I had a bilateral breast reduction. Normal mammo last November.
On the scan today, the right side was totally normal, but the left showed some areas that lit up exactly at the spot where the excision was. My gyno insisted this was because an abnormal vessel that fed the lesion still remains and that it was no need for any concern. I had been under the impression that everything abnormal had been removed. Has anyone else here had a similar finding? I am seeing my BS next week for a regularly scheduled US, so will obviously show her the results and discuss this with her, but in the meantime, although my gyno kept screaming, "This is good news!", somehow I feel uneasy anyway.
Comments
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I had a thermographic breast scan, pointed directly at the lump I was concerned about and the results were normal. Maybe some lymph nodes that were clogged or something, but no cancer. Lo and behold, there was a tumor over 6cm with a full on blood supply that even made the skin above it on my breast pink and warm. But the thermogram or graph said nothing. Mammogram was screaming tumor. Ultrasound was screaming tumor w blood supply. I had biopsy and ended up w large tumor growing over fibrous tissue and 3 nodes of 12 were positive and one had a 1.25mm extension reaching out to nearby fatty tissue. Surgeon got extremely clean margins... But bottom line, I do not trust thermography, I will never do one again, I think I was sold a bill of goods by Dr. mercola from whose newsletter I decided to go that route in place of mammogram.
Mammogram technician said to me that by the time something shows up on a thermogram, in her experience, it is huge and bad.
Just my experience and two cents. -
Thanks for your feedback. I guess it is the opposite scenario that concerns me: portion of the thermogram that lights up is exactly where I had the trouble last year, although the doctor is insisting this is not meaningful. I would not substitute the thermogram for a mammogram and US-- only intended to use it as an adjunct. But now I wonder if I have myself unrealistically worried or if it is just my suspicious nature. I need someone to explain to me why this area would light up if everything there is ok, and I guess, in retrospect, I don't really understand my doctor's explanation that this area is only indicative of an "abnormal blood vessel" that caused all my problems in the first place last year. She says any woman with my history would have findings like I did today. Can anyone shed light?
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Twistedsteel: OMG! Our stories are too similar and scary. I had two thermograph reports saying I did not have cancer and low and behold, two weeks after I received the last report, I was diagnosed with IDC (5 cm). Oh and I didn't have the thermographs done until after I received an Oct 2011 mammogram saying what I had was benign. (So all reports had failed me because my current radiologist said that my 5 cm tumor was smaller in October but definitely there).
Momoschki: Please go with your instincts and if you feel something is not right, keep insisting that this be explained to you by your doctor or maybe get a 2nd opinion. I would be in a worse place in 6 months if I had not gone with my instincts, but at least now I can be assured that I have a medical team in place that is getting me the treatments I need.
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My head is spinning... I really don't know what to believe. Just wondering what alternative explanations there could be for an area to light up if nothing is really wrong (as my gyn claims.) I am glad that I have an appt. with my breast surgeon in less than a week and will get an US, but I am finding today's thermogram experience pretty disturbing. I thought I was doing myself a favor by having an additional screening test and now I am not so sure.
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momoschki, we're sorry this has your head spinning! Here's what the main Breastcancer.org site has to say about Thermography (click to go to the link). Please do come back and let us know what your breast surgeon has to say!
Also, from June 2011, the Research News article FDA Says Thermography Shouldn't Be Substituted for Mammograms.
The Mods
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Thanks for the literature above. I never intended to use the thermography as a substitute for mammos-- my gyn just suggested it as an adjunct, since she has just gotten the machine in her office and was excited about it. Hoping that my meeting with my BS next week can clear up my confusion and allay my fears, but now I am approaching basket case mode again :-( My gyn didn't even refer to the lit up portion as a potential false positive. Why would any portion of it lighting up be considered good news and not a cause of concern?
The other moral of this story is never to have a test like this on a Friday afternoon! Now I have the entire weekend to stew in my own anxious juice.
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any post -op area would probably light up, even if everything is normal. I wouldn't read too much into that.
Anne
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Anne,
Yes, this would have made sense to me if there were other areas that reacted to my having had a reduction, but the only place that lit up was just where the lumpectomy was, last March, so over a year ago. Why would the test be sensitive to one site of surgery and not another? I know I am obsessing. Will pick my doctor's brains more tomorrow morning.
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OK, I am so glad that I stumbled across this thread. I just had my very first thermal breast imaging done a couple of weeks ago.
I have had 'busy breasts' for years, had a total of 5 biopsies over the years with the last one being a stereotactic biopsy in 2009 due to calcifications on mammogram. I was diagnosed with sclerosing adenosis, a benign condition that increases your chances for some cancers. I have been on an annual mammogram schedule for 2 years. About 6 months ago I started having a pulling sensation in my right breast, along with increasing sharp pains like electrical shocks. I have had the sharp pains before but never this annoying pulling sensation. I have very lumpy, ropey breasts so it is difficult for me to find new lumps or ropes. Consequently I am not very good about doing breast exams.
I have my annual check up in June, will ask for a breast exam and get my script for the mammogram. It was suggested by a member on this board that I get the Thermal Imaging done so I did. It did not show any unusual vascular activity and I was given a TH-2 (low) risk rating. My Hormonal Grade was 3 which is high and the report says "Some cancer does not produce suffiecient heat to be seen on thermography, recommend follow up thermography in 1 year" The Hormonal grade said that it describes the level of estrogen activity in my breasts which may be associated with breast pain, breast lumps and/or increased risk. Which I found to be odd because last year I had hormonal testing done and was told that my ovaries are no longer producing estrogen and my estrogen level was so low it was negligable. So how do I have high estrogen levels in my breast?
momoschki, I was just the opposite of you, I was relieved when I received the results but now I am unsure again. Like you I never intended to use the thermography as a replacement for mammogram and fully intended to get my clinical exam and mammogram done this summer. However, now that I have read this post I think I will ask for an ultrasound too.
I feel that there is something wrong but cannot detect if it is gutt feeling or fear. In 2009 I really felt for sure that the biopsy was going to come back postitive and thought well if they missed something then it will show up again. But I have not had any microcalcificaton since then so I am leaning toward less of instinct and more of fear.
Thanks for sharing this. I had posted that I did Thermography on another site but didn't get any feedback. My post was pretty much ignored. I am guessing that most women don't approve of it.
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momoschki, if you could post back what your BS has to say about it I would appreciate it. Hopefully it is what your OB/GYN said it is.
Also, I want to emphasize that the Thermal Imaging Center that I went to strongly emphasized that you should not use this imaging as a replacement for mammogram. The literature that they gave me stated it and the technician mentioned it multiple times.
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Fergy,
I will definitely post what comments my BS has on the situation after I see her on Thursday. The other thing that is striking me as strange, in retrospect, is that no one gave me a report-- they just gave me a copy of the scan itself. I did not get a coded risk rating. Will ask about this when I call tomorrow. I was feeling relatively confident about the US coming up this Thursday before all this thermograph business, but now I am worried (yet again.) This is all so incredibly stressful!
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Just to follow up: had a 6 month US today (which was totally fine) and asked my BS about her interpretation of the thermography results. She was completely dismissive of thermography in general-- not "evidence based", etc. She puts no stock in this procedure. When I picked my gyno's brains about the thermography results, she explained that the enhanced area was from an abnormal blood vessel feeding the atypia I had last year. She said that although the atypical cells were removed, the vessel remains, and is normal for someone with my history. She thought that if there were other areas of concern brewing, other new blood supplies to that area would have been visible (but there were none.) Of course, as I said, my BS thinks it's all bunk anyway. So interesting (and confusing!) how divergent different doctors are on the same subject!
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Momoschki: I'm so glad that everything is fine and that you received the explanations that you received.
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Thanks! Just relieved that I am done for the next 6 months! As soon as I was finished today, I became ravenously hungry. Had a nice lunch with my husband and a BIG glass of wine.
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momschki, Thank you for sharing that information. I am guessing that it is viewed much like palm reading or tarrot cards by some in the medical community. I think they are afraid that women will do thermography instead of mammograms and not be diagnosed early.
Stangely, having the thermography done gave me a sense of comfort since I am so skeptical of mammorgram results. I think doctors rely too much on them and they give a lot of false negatives and false positives as well.
My cousins wife in the UK had her mammogram in June 2009, nothing showed up. December 2009 she found a lump and was diagnosed with breast cancer, fought for 2 years and died December 2011. When they went back to look at the June mammogram after her diagnosis they saw nothing. So it makes me wonder why are we ONLY doing mammograms every year?
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have you asked your bs about breast mri. i had duct removed 18 months ago. i have been getting mammos every 6 months to get me to once a year and the nurse practitioner ordered an mri due to the adh and on the very first mri, a very small spot lit up, i had an mri guided biosy that actually removed the whole tumor (when had lumpectomy there was ned). i was diagnosed with dcis that had not been seen on the mammo 6 months earlier. if you have adh, i highly recommend talking about an mri with your bs. good luck.
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I have to admit that I was somewhat disappointed in my BS's totally dismissive attitude towards thermography... the way she responded, you'd think I had asked her clinical opinion of astrology! I couldn't help but wonder, if thermography is not evidence based at all, then why is it FDA approved? I can't really see the harm in using it alongside of mammos, US, and MRI's as an additional screening tool.
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Hi Momoschki,
In the links above from the BCO mods, you'll see that thermography is FDA approved as an adjunct screening tool, not as a substitute. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who misrepresent the evidence-based facts and claim that it is a useful substitute for mammograms.
I don't see where the FDA or anyone claims there is harm (other than reliability issues) in using it as an adunct. The harmful aspect is when patients are misled into believing exaggerated or false claims.
That being said, I hold out hope that thermography will continue to be developed and improved to the point where it does become an effective and reliable alternative.
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Yes, yes, yes... no one ever said (least of all myself) that the thermography should be an substitue for other screenings (mammos, US, MRI)-- only an adjunct. That being said, clearly my BS did not put any stock in it as an adjunctive method either.
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Hi Momoschki,
I didn't mean you specifically. It's just such a common claim here on BCO and elsewhere that it *is* a good substitute.
I'm glad you had good results, and it sounds like your approach is well thought out!
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thenewme, I agree with what you say about the fear that women would use thermography as a replacement for mammogram. It is completely painless and that would be the real draw.
The imaging center that I had my thermographic imaging done at STRONGLY emphasized that it was not a replacement for mammography or any other tests. All of their literature and the technician repeated it several times. Personally I think annual mammogram and ultra sound should be the standard of care for all women. MRI is expensive and I can see how the insurance companies would not want that done every year without cause.
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Thank you kayb for sharing that information.
Interestingly, the technician that did my imaging is a breast cancer survivor as well. She said that is what caused her to change careers and start doing the thermographic imaging. She had a normal mammogram and an abnormal thermal imaging so she pushed for ultrasound and MRI and that is how her cancer was detected. She had lumpectomy and chemo and gets her mammogram and thermal imagining done annually and stressed that the more data we have the better we can advocate for ourselves.
I guess the thermal imaging will always be contraversial but as I said in an earlier post it gave me some comfort knowing that my symptoms could be due to excess estrogen in my breasts, mammogram, US and MRI cannot measure estrogen levels in the breast only thermography can.
Come July I will be there for my annual mammogram and will discuss with my doctor the excess estrogen in my breast since I am not on HRT and am post menopausal.
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Kay,
So interesting about the mushrooms! So, it may be that the mushroom supplements my integrative onc has me taking (shitake and chaga) may have served to further enhance the "abnormal" blood vessel that lit up on the thermogram. Who knew?
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The NZ Med journal review was quite correct as far as there being insufficient evidence to support thermography for breast cancer. However, this does not mean that there is no evidence as their notably very narrow restrictive criteria eliminated nearly all the supportive published evidence from review. 30 years ago there were equally no randomised controlled trials on mammography but Kodak, Siemens and GE had the funds to do them. It will take time for those involved in thermography to do the same.
At best, mammography misses 20% of cancers and with dense breasts the sensitivity drops to almost 50%. Furthermore, the latest Nordic Cochrane Review has confirmed that mammography has been grossly oversold with the purported life-saving results of mammography actually being miniscule.
There is therefore a great need for other user-friendly adjuvant investigations and good thermal imaging can help. Unfortunately, we have not only some substandard computer systems being marketed and/or substandard reporting but also different protocols. This international situation continues to frustrate those trying to get uniformity because thermography works when properly done.
I am a now retired NZ MD (graduated 1963 London) with 10 years of clinical experience in breast thermography now involving over 4,000 women. I am currently training others and would not have continued spending time and considerable finances initially in an American system and then the newer automated German Mammovision by InfraMedic if thermal imaging was ineffective. Thermography was instrumental in finding several breast cancers where repeated mammographies and U/S failed to detect anything including one with a normal biopsy. Referrals for other investigations e.g. MRI, then confirmed the invasive cancers.
Thermography is a breast health monitoring device that can uniquely show changes in blood vessel patterns and heat distribution. Because a cancer has to develop new feeder blood vessels to grow beyond a pin-head size this can result in superficial breast cancers (i.e. breast) being detectable by thermography. Hot cancers are also more aggressive especially in young women. Ideally, every young woman ought to have a baseline imaging before first pregnancy that records her unique vascular pattern. Later images could then be compared.
Thermography combined with naturopathic guidance can be used to monitor reversal of abnormal breast pictures and even confirmed breast cancers. Double-blind studies are inappropriate and even unethical because each individual patient could be advised differently. Antioxidants, iodine, selenium and dental revision could all be variously involved besides nutrition and the standard advice on smoking, alcohol, exercise and avoidance of soft plastics.
Whether a woman takes interest in her breast health is a matter of choice. Thus thermal imaging with or without mammography with full truthful informed consent ought to also be by choice.
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envirodoc, I am sure that Thermography have helped SOME women to detect breast cancer that the mammogram and/or ultrasound did not detect. HOWEVER, I have also read of documented cases where mammogram and/or ultrasound has detected cancer that Thermography did not. Therefore I stand by my opinion that Thermography, Mammography and Ultra Sound are ALL good tools for detecting breast cancer. Not just one or the other. I would throw MRI in there too if it wasn't so cost prohibitive.
Yes, we do have freedom of choice as to whether we should have tests done or not. I personally think getting thermal imagining without mammography is short changing yourself. Even the literature from the Thermal Imaging lab states that some cancers do not show up on the scans. Just like we have freedom to choose our treatments, we also have freedom to our opinions about them.
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Who knows if the mushroom supplements have anything to do with the thermography results, but I have been taking them for over a year. Never had red palms, though! There appears to be some evidence that some mushrooms have an anticarcinogenic effect, although my guess is that conventional oncs would not endorse them as a legitimate treatment. My integrative onc, however, likes to travel a little far off the beaten path...
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Why are MRI's so much pricier?
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