Would a KETONE Diet Kill Cancer?

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  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 1,393
    edited April 2012

    I guessed that diagnosis too Momine, but was hoping my question would give readers a chance to stop and think about it. Paul stated he wasn't on any medications.  I known several with that diagnosis myself and they are off the planet without their medications, but very nice to know when medicated even though those medications are far from perfect.

  • Momine
    Momine Member Posts: 7,859
    edited April 2012

    Joy, I hear you. My brother has schizophrenia and frequently stops taking his meds. When off his meds, he generally does not make a whole lot of sense. It is a horrible disease unfortunately.

  • cheery
    cheery Member Posts: 311
    edited April 2012

    Nodules

    I appreciate the time you've taken to write these walls of text (WOT)..I do find them interesting & refreshing but very tedious to read..lol..

    Well, sorry to disappoint, but I have been doing protein diets (purely out of vanity rather than health reasonsTongue out) on and off since 2006. I have achieved the targeted weight loss each time but sadly, that did not prevent me from getting a Stage IV BC diagnosis at the onset. I live in Asia and my diet typically consists fish soup, veg and tofu Wink. I'd intentionally modified it to suit my Asian palette and in consideration of the unhealthy high-fat Atkins diet.  So what gives?

    This is not a consultation for your opinion nor am I saying what you've posted is hogwash. I'm merely saying contrary to your theory, a ketone diet certainly didn't work for meFrown. In fact, I'd questioned the extremity of the protein diet (eliminating carbs) as it causes mood swings/depression which may have unknowingly caused my body to be stressed for several months at a go when I'm on the diet. 

    So.....I guess it's back to the drawing board for you to revise your theoriesWink?

  • candygurl
    candygurl Member Posts: 130
    edited April 2012

    This is what I found on Pubmed. See the studies below. This diet is not recommended for those who have heart problems.  I think anyone who considers this diet should research it to death and follow it under the supervision of a medical professional.  

      

    The calorically restricted ketogenic diet, an effective alternative therapy for malignant brain cancer.

    Zhou W, Mukherjee P, Kiebish MA, Markis WT, Mantis JG, Seyfried TN.

    Source

    Department of Biology, Boston College, Chestnut Hill, USA. zhouwb@bc.edu

    Abstract

    BACKGROUND:

    Malignant brain cancer persists as a major disease of morbidity and mortality in adults and is the second leading cause of cancer death in children. Many current therapies for malignant brain tumors fail to provide long-term management because they ineffectively target tumor cells while negatively impacting the health and vitality of normal brain cells. In contrast to brain tumor cells, which lack metabolic flexibility and are largely dependent on glucose for growth and survival, normal brain cells can metabolize both glucose and ketone bodies for energy. This study evaluated the efficacy of KetoCal, a new nutritionally balanced high fat/low carbohydrate ketogenic diet for children with epilepsy, on the growth and vascularity of a malignant mouse astrocytoma (CT-2A) and a human malignant glioma (U87-MG).

    METHODS:

    Adult mice were implanted orthotopically with the malignant brain tumors and KetoCal was administered to the mice in either unrestricted amounts or in restricted amounts to reduce total caloric intake according to the manufacturers recommendation for children with refractory epilepsy. The effects KetoCal on tumor growth, vascularity, and mouse survival were compared with that of an unrestricted high carbohydrate standard diet.

    RESULTS:

    KetoCal administered in restricted amounts significantly decreased the intracerebral growth of the CT-2A and U87-MG tumors by about 65% and 35%, respectively, and significantly enhanced health and survival relative to that of the control groups receiving the standard low fat/high carbohydrate diet. The restricted KetoCal diet reduced plasma glucose levels while elevating plasma ketone body (beta-hydroxybutyrate) levels. Tumor microvessel density was less in the calorically restricted KetoCal groups than in the calorically unrestricted control groups. Moreover, gene expression for the mitochondrial enzymes, beta-hydroxybutyrate dehydrogenase and succinyl-CoA: 3-ketoacid CoA transferase, was lower in the tumors than in the contralateral normal brain suggesting that these brain tumors have reduced ability to metabolize ketone bodies for energy.

    CONCLUSION:

    The results indicate that KetoCal has anti-tumor and anti-angiogenic effects in experimental mouse and human brain tumors when administered in restricted amounts. The therapeutic effect of KetoCal for brain cancer management was due largely to the reduction of total caloric content, which reduces circulating glucose required for rapid tumor growth. A dependency on glucose for energy together with defects in ketone body metabolism largely account for why the brain tumors grow minimally on either a ketogenic-restricted diet or on a standard-restricted diet. Genes for ketone body metabolism should be useful for screening brain tumors that could be targeted with calorically restricted high fat/low carbohydrate ketogenic diets. This preclinical study indicates that restricted KetoCal is a safe and effective diet therapy and should be considered as an alternative therapeutic option for malignant brain cancer.

      

      

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    Is the restricted ketogenic diet a viable alternative to the standard of care for managing malignant brain cancer?

    Seyfried TN, Marsh J, Shelton LM, Huysentruyt LC, Mukherjee P.

    Source

    Biology Department, Boston College, Chestnut Hill, MA 02467, United States.

    Abstract

    Malignant brain cancer persists as a major disease of morbidity and mortality. The failure to recognize brain cancer as a disease of energy metabolism has contributed in large part to the failure in management. As long as brain tumor cells have access to glucose and glutamine, the disease will progress. The current standard of care provides brain tumors with access to glucose and glutamine. The high fat low carbohydrate ketogenic diet (KD) will target glucose availability and possibly that of glutamine when administered in carefully restricted amounts to reduce total caloric intake and circulating levels of glucose. The restricted KD (RKD) targets major signaling pathways associated with glucose and glutamine metabolism including the IGF-1/PI3K/Akt/Hif pathway. The RKD is anti-angiogenic, anti-invasive, anti-inflammatory, and pro-apoptotic when evaluated in mice with malignant brain cancer. The therapeutic efficacy of the restricted KD can be enhanced when combined with drugs that also target glucose and glutamine. Therapeutic efficacy of the RKD was also seen against malignant gliomas in human case reports. Hence, the RKD can be an effective non-toxic therapeutic option to the current standard of care for inhibiting the growth and invasive properties of malignant brain cancer.

  • elimar86861
    elimar86861 Member Posts: 7,416
    edited April 2012

    Is this meant to support one of the many claims nodules has made?  I, personally, would not equate Gliomas, or malignant brain cancer with B/C mets to the brain, but anyone else can, as they wish.

  • sweetbean
    sweetbean Member Posts: 1,931
    edited April 2012

    I agree with cheery.  I've been doing the low-carb thing for years and I still got cancer.  A five cm tumor.  Uncool.  I actually think diet is an important part of an anti-cancer strategy, but saying it can cure cancer?  Sorry, nope.

  • vespersparrow
    vespersparrow Member Posts: 62
    edited April 2012

    I did low carb for many years too and got cancer too.   However, I had gone off the diet in the year preceding my diagnosis and was eating lots of starches, and during that time my tumor really blew up - almost 4cm with a KI67 >70%!  Surprised  whereas less than a year earlier it had been undetected during my annual exam.  So, I can't help but wonder if I had stayed on the keto diet whether my tumor would've grown more slowly, stayed stable, or even shrunk if some other problems had been resolved at the same time.  I believe these ideas have great merit, and that it's not just about avoiding carbs, but also inflammatory substances like margarine, gluten and artificial sweeteners to name a few.  Keto diets for cancer are nothing new although maybe people get upset because they feel their own (non-keto) diet is being judged.

    Nodule's  posts may be a little rambly and like thinking out loud, but I see gems in there and personally enjoy them more than most of safer topics discussed around here.   I don't see tham as al that bizarre and appreciate the time he has taken to type them out.  Seems like most of the interesting thinkers get pecked off these forums eventually though (Dr Eliaz comes to mind) but I say let them be, we have minds and can take what is helpful to us as individuals and leave the rest. Speculating that he is schizo seems rather rude and disrespectful to me, IMHO.   Straw man, much?  Unfortunately this sort of biting and cattiness seems endemic here and why I'm generally uncomfortable posting much here.

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 1,393
    edited April 2012

    I suspect that a few different diet shocks can be damaging to the cancer.  Fasts for days or part of each day.  Juice fasts.  Low carb or low calorieLow calorie mimetics such as metforminAlkaline diet.

    As cancer can adjust to most treatments and environments, perhaps a new diet every few weeks to damage it could work.  It's all speculation but as long as I'm generally fit and healthy I'll keep cycling through these in the hope of keeping progression away, always being moderate to avoid harm.  If I had mets I'd be more aggressive.  It feels good to have lost excess weight from the low energy plus strong antioxidant diet I was on and now I've rested I'm ready to start again after my dental treatments are finished. 

  • Jennt28
    Jennt28 Member Posts: 2,021
    edited April 2012

    Not wanting to get overly involved in this conversation but since I do know an awful lot about research in Australia (being not only a breast cancer patient but also a cancer clinical trial coordinator) I want to correct an inaccuracy in Paul's statement on page 1...



    The NH and MRC in Australia is NOT a research institute but is a regulatory and funding body. As such it is responsible for distributing a huge amount of government funding to researchers via a very comprehensive grants system. "Big Pharma" (whoever they are?) are not "in bed" with this funding body. It is quite obvious if you look at where their funding goes that the funding body supports research of all kinds based on merit and potential for making major changes in clinical practice or breakthroughs in basic science. They do not fund pharmaceutical companies...



    I will also say that as a researcher I am always a little suspicious of anyone pushing an unproven scientific agenda who feels they have to resort to the old "Big Pharma" chestnut in order to get support. The wheels of research turn slowly but in my experience a lot of good ideas coming from a base of anecdotal evidence do get funded for research eventually if the effort for gaining support is aimed in the right direction.



    If you truly believe in the power of the ketone diet based on real evidence or basic science theory I hope Paul, that you are aiming your efforts at researchers (both in basic science and in clinical practice) and funding bodies and you are not just concentrating on giving non-qualified medical advice (the ketone diet should only be followed by someone under direct medical supervision due to it's potential for ketosis) to people currently going through a cancer diagnosis.



    Now, having made that above correction I'm going back to my Taxol pain. In the morning I will continue striving for my low sugar (good research on this) and low starch (also good research on this) diet which I must admit I'm having a hard time sticking with. Next Friday I will turn up for my next Taxol and Herceptin infusion because at this point in time I know it will be of statistical benefit to my survival (excellent research and statistical evidence for this).

  • sweetbean
    sweetbean Member Posts: 1,931
    edited April 2012

    Jenn, I have heard of people taking Claritin for Taxol bone pain.  I wish I had known that when I had Taxol, because I had a lot of pain.  But try the Claritin, perhaps!

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 1,393
    edited April 2012

    Jenn, have you seen the study on fasting for a couple of days before chemo to improve the effects?  I've seen discussion about this in another thread where they compare how it affected their reaction and side effects of chemo infusions.  You'll have to search if interested, but it could have been on the research section where this was originally posted, or a chemo thread.

    What I see in society is a massive experiment in diet gone bad.  Everyone on a typical western diet should be under medical supervision, because the side effects of obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease and all the miriad of other illnesses are filling our hospitals and wasting our health insurance money.  Not to mention the cost in human suffering.  I don't mean the standard theoretical diet, I mean the one people actually eat; chips, bread, cakes, ice cream, pastries, pasta, white, white and more white empty calories. If they have a few veg and fruit plus meat they then kid themselves they are eating "healthy". 

    I don't believe ketones are that bad for a person who doesn't have diabetes or insulin resistance, but many don't know they have these conditions so a check up is definitely important at the very least.  Paul you stated you put the weight back on and more.  That's why a more moderate diet is preferable as it's more likely to last.  Since I stopped my low energy diet in December I've only put a couple of Lbs back on as I've got in the habit of eating less and differently, also my appetite has dropped, contrary to the usual after-diet hunger.

  • cheery
    cheery Member Posts: 311
    edited April 2012

    Joy, Sweetbean

    I also think weight management is very important, whether we have cancer or not. Personally, protein diets are a quick fix when I find myself steering off the path with a few extra kgsTongue out

    However, I'm very mindful of my TCM practitioner's words when I was first diagnosed. I'd asked him for pointers regarding his long-term cancer survivors in China, given his extensive experience with cancer patients (he's almost 80 yo). He told me make your life routine. Make sure there are no surprises to your body.

    So I'm fairly wary of any unknowing stress placed on my body, which may include the protein diet. Having said that, I'm about to embark on yet ano protein diet as I do need to quickly shed a few kgs off from bingeing lately..sighFrown

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2012

    As my stance on drugs seems to be causing the most amount of angst on this forum I thought I would clarify that issue first, dealing with the common and more serious disorders.

    MIGRAINE. It is far less damaging to the brain to suffer migraines than medicate them with blood vessel constrictors and dilators. The 'vasospasm' (or constriction followed by dilation of blood vessels to the brain) as it is erroneously call by the neurologist doesn't just happen. The first phase, when blood vessels to the brain constrict , and there are visual disturbances and mental confusion is seen as the dangerous phase to be suppressed with vasodilator drugs used prothilactically, because this constriction causes oxygen and glucose starvation to the brain. However this constriction takes place to control a far worse threat, a rise in osmotic pressure in the brain in which neurons can swell and burst. Constrictors, on the other hand taken before nausea starts are to control or minimise the dilation phase from which the headache results. However, this dilation phase is to compensate for the hypoxia and hypoglycaemia resulting from the necessary constriction phase. The brain is trying to juggle two opposing dangers and knows better than any neurologist what to do.

    Beta blockers taken prothilactically to control the blood pressure rise of the migraine and thereby minimise the pain/control hypertension can prolong a migraine for days and increase it's severity. This is because, by being adrenalin receptor blockers on the heart and it's blood vessels, they also inhibit the release of fatty acids and glycerol from fat cells and lactic acid from the muscles, all needed by the liver to make glucose and ketones which desperately needed by a brain starved for fuel, so it's blood vessels remain extremely dilated along with the migraine. Unable to eat because of the nausea and the body unable to make fuel, all up a combination of beta blockers, refined sugar and liver pathology made worse by the refined sugar. If someone with migraine is taking beta blockers I recommend seeing their doctor about looking at the possibility that they have more renal hypertension than cardiovascular and swap to an ACE (angiotensinogen converting enzyme) inhibitor just temporarily. Once enough gunk in their blood vessels has dissolved by getting off the sugar they can throw them away.

    So I recommend suffering the migraines rather than take take drugs do I? Not at all . If you are fair dinkum you can take the first step tonight and tomorrow morning be totally free of migraine forever. Triggers, like Tyramine, MSG etc. don't cause migraine, they merely exacerbate the effect of refined sugar and, in many cases, be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

    SEIZURES.

    Sugar?? What happens when a diabetic injects too much insulin? Well, seizures. What happens when someone has a tumour of the pancreas called an insulinoma which spits out insulin 24/7? Epiliptus staticus or constant fits. What does insulin do? Lowers blood sugar. What is reactive hypoglycaemia (perfectly respectable syndrome as even the Mayo clinic recognises it but doesn't know how to test for it properly) low blood sugar in response to high blood sugar? Doesn't that suggest that going off refined sugar will eliminate the low and and therefore the seizures.

    As I suggest in the above post on the panic attack, the blackout and convulsions actually protect the brain from potentially life threatening cerebral hypoglycaemia. Another example of Nature being a bit smarter than the neurologist. The symptoms are there for a reason every time. Nature says 'He who hath ears to hear let him hear'. Forget dogma just look and listen and it all begins to make sense. Cut out refined sugar and the seizures will cease, unless you have an insulinoma. Go on a ketone diet and the pancreas becomes redundant and get a rest from the huge swings in destructive osmotic pressure associated with swings in blood sugar.

    INSULIN DEPENDANT DIABETES.

    Off course you can't throw away your insulin just yet. Just start to manage it a helluva lot better. Most of of the appalling longer term pathology associated with insulin dependant diabetes, blindness, kidney failure gangrene of the extremities etc. is injecting way too insulin, then on the threshold of hypoglycaemia induced seizures or coma. in which case unconscious and unable to respond i.e. dead, is to quickly gobble two Mars Bars. Blood sugar rockets up into the stratosphere along with huge and incredibly destructive osmotic hypertension. On edge of hyperglycaemic coma, another huge shot of insulin and so on. These swing in blood sugar are also moodswings, confusion etc. emotional instability, thereby making management even more difficult and thus worse

    Go onto a ketone diet and insulin becomes irrelevant as there is no blood sugar to regulate. You can put the hypodermic an monitor in the cupboard. Now your pancreas will get a complete rest and there's a very good chance those beta cells, now freed of the osmotic pressure swing that probably destroyed them in the first place, can regrow and you'll come out of the ketone diet no longer a diabetic. The you can give your insulin to somebody else. Another miracle of ketosis.

    CHOLESTEROL. My post on the ABC Health Report.

    When I heard that Statin was on the menu this week I thought "Oh, how boring" but I thought that I'd better have look as one drug and it's action, side effects etc. throws light on another and one learns more biochemistry, endocrinology etc. at the same time Well I'm glad now that I did, One side effect that struck me was type 2 diabetes, 2 presumably being associated with weight gain. Now the diagnostic test of diabetes is as good as useless, 1.75 grammes of glucose per Kg of body weight taken at 9 am after a fast from the previous evening and after taking the first blood test, then one EACH HOUR, three all up. Now I've done quite a few 5 hr GTT's and I found that I HAD to do a test each 15 minutes to start off or miss the peak. One woman I tested went from around 6.5 to SIXTEEN then fell to a low of 4 (a 400% fall) in a bit over an hour and had glucose in her urine. Ok, the standard test will detect glucose in urine but that peak is every bit as important as far as arteriosclerosis is concerned because the arteriosclerosis of diabetes is every bit as much about hyperglycaemia as it is about hypercholestertolaemia. It called non-enzymatic glycosation of protein, glucose acting like a glue binding to proteins on epithelial cells lining blood vessels and trapping cholesterol in this glue.

    Now looking at the metabolic pathways the central molecule is acetyle Co enzyme A or acetyl CoA (vinegar with an enzyme) the CENTRAL molecule of all major metabolic pathways in almost all cells. Ethanol (alcohol) is converted to acetyle Co A (via acetaldehyde), as are ketones from the breakdown of fatty acids. But the liver doesn't import fatty acids to convert to ketones except with ketosis. However, look up what's called the glycolytic pathway and you'll see glucose coming in from one side, Here it can go up to be synthesised to glycogen, the storage form of glucose. Come back down to acetyle CoA and it can enter the TCA or citric acid cycle to make energy in the form of ATP, as well as intermediate molecules in the TCA cycle. But too much acetyle CoA into the TCA cycle and citric acid builds up and it inhibits glycolysis,

    But what happens if glycogen stores are topped to the brim, made worse by liver pathology limiting storage and no more energy production is needed other than a base level to keep the cell running. There is ONLY one way out, turn acetyle CoA into cholesterol. So the synthesis of excess cholesterol is a BLOOD SUGAR REGULATING MECHANISM. Block it and up goes blood glucose, DIABETES. To me this is one of those examples where the body has to choose between two undesirable outcomes hyperglycaemia or hypercholesterolaemia both of which gunk blood vessels, however hyperglycaemia means very high osmotic blood pressure, so the body chooses the cholesterol outcome. What the patient has to do is dramatically cut back on the sugar intake and chuck the Statin down the loo.

    Next Arthritis, Schizophrenia etc.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2012

    Stage 2 Toward The Ketone Diet. AC-1020



    I recently got hold of a Bio -Med paper about a form of treatment for Alzheimers disease using a compound called AC-1202 which is converted to ketones in the liver without having to limit carb input so that ketones and glucose can coexist in the bloodstream at the same time. It was shown to improve cognitive function in Alzheimers patients, seeming to indicate that neurons choose ketones as a fuel when there is a choice. Actually the compound is quite natural despite the name, being made from the glycerine of vegetable oil with the fatty acids from coconut or palm oil combined to make triglyceride. These are very short chain fatty acids of 8 carbons long as against 18 carbons for the omega 3,6 and 9 oils. It may be that plants in the tropics use shorter chain fatty acids to achieve the optimum permeability across cell membranes. The reason that this treatment is used for treating Alzheimer patients is because they develop a sweeter and sweeter tooth as the disease advances, and I'd reckon that an increased sugar intake has a lot to do with CAUSE of the disease. The treatment arose because of the extreme difficulty of getting a very elderly person off the sugar to get into ketosis, which does seem like sloppy way of doing things, but I suppose one has to be pragmatic about these things.

    When glucose is present in the bloodstream the conversion of fatty acids to ketones is what all cells have to do when running on fatty acids because ketones are an intermediate between the fatty acids and acetate (ionised vinegar), the central molecule of the major metabolic pathways. However, when in ketosis the liver makes an excess of ketones over and above it's own requirements to supply the rest of the bodies cells instead of them making their own ketones from circulating fatty acids. Why, I dunno, yet. But with AC-1202 the liver is making ketones for export even though there is a normal concentration of glucose in the bloodstream. I'd reckon the answer to that riddle is because of the short length of it's fatty acids i.e. they are easy to beta oxidise, as the process of conversion is called. It may be more complicated than that, however it's not important for what I have in mind.

    What if this compound can be eaten as the key to an intermediate dietary stage between the no refined sugar stage and the ketone stage, making it safer and easier to enter ketosis. It would eliminate and chance of having seizures. It could be that coconut/palm oil could be used instead, and ketones in the urine easily tested for with Ames Ketostix. I might try it on myself to get the ball rolling and give a report.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2012

    I have not run away.  My internet connection is so bad because of the Easter Holiday and rain that I have been offline for days and can only just make a connection now.  I may have to be offline for a couple of days to upgrade the system/set up a special camp a mile away where there is good signal. 

    Stage 2 Toward The Ketone Diet.

    I recently got hold of a Bio -Med paper about a form of treatment for Alzheimers disease using a compound called AC-1202 which is converted to ketones in the liver without having to limit carb input so that ketones and glucose can coexist in the bloodstream at the same time. It was shown to improve cognitive function in Alzheimers patients, seeming to indicate that neurons choose ketones as a fuel when there is a choice. Actually the compound is quite natural despite the name, being made from the glycerine of vegetable oil with the fatty acids from coconut or palm oil combined to make triglyceride. These are very short chain fatty acids of 8 carbons long as against 18 carbons for the omega 3,6 and 9 oils. It may be that plants in the tropics use shorter chain fatty acids to achieve the optimum permeability across cell membranes. The reason that this treatment is used for treating Alzheimer patients is because they develop a sweeter and sweeter tooth as the disease advances, and I'd reckon that an increased sugar intake has a lot to do with CAUSE of the disease. The treatment arose because of the extreme difficulty of getting a very elderly person off the sugar to get into ketosis, which does seem like sloppy way of doing things, but I suppose one has to be pragmatic about these things.

    When glucose is present in the bloodstream the conversion of fatty acids to ketones is what all cells have to do when running on fatty acids because ketones are an intermediate between the fatty acids and acetate (ionised vinegar), the central molecule of the major metabolic pathways. However, when in ketosis the liver makes an excess of ketones over and above it's own requirements to supply the rest of the bodies cells instead of them making their own ketones from circulating fatty acids. Why, I dunno, yet. But with AC-1202 the liver is making ketones for export even though there is a normal concentration of glucose in the bloodstream. I'd reckon the answer to that riddle is because of the short length of it's fatty acids i.e. they are easy to beta oxidise, as the process of conversion is called. It may be more complicated than that, however it's not important for what I have in mind.

    What if this compound can be eaten as the key to an intermediate dietary stage between the no refined sugar stage and the ketone stage, making it safer and easier to enter ketosis. It would eliminate and chance of having seizures. It could be that coconut/palm oil could be used instead, and ketones in the urine easily tested for with Ames Ketostix. I might try it on myself to get the ball rolling and give a report.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2012

    To Mother of Fou...on her question about lactic acid Page 1 

    As to the lactic acid question, it's the same problem a sprinter or racehorse has in their muscle cells. It depends on how fast the lactic acid can be cleared AWAY from the cells and thus the concentration inside the cell which inhibits it's metabolism. An illegal form of racehorse nobbling is to give it sodium bicarb to alleviate this problem. As to making the cells more acidic on the inside and more alkaline on the outside, first how on earth to do that and second if you make the cells more alkaline on the outside by an infusion of say, sodium bicarb. which is the major base buffer in the bloodstream will only help clear lactic acid from the inside and thus assist it's metabolism. A cancer cell excreting CO2 is one that is not fully malignant, the amount depending on the DEGREE of malignancy.

    A ketone diet would probably not kill these cells, however removing the cause of the cancer, liver and kidney pathology, pseudo estrogens etc. would activate a mechanism of remission. The only one that I know of at the moment is TNF (tumour necrosing factor) released by the immune system when it bounces back. It tightly constricts the blood vessels of tumours only, so much that they die of ischemia. Deprived of oxygen and fuel, the cell cannot generate energy in the form of ATP to run its pumps which are constantly expelling ions such as sodium and calcium so these ions pour into the cell and its internal osmotic pressure shoots up and it either bursts or has it's internal membranes so badly ruptured that it dies. This is necrotic cell death not apoptosis or cell suicide. It is a very messy form of cell death with lumps of cell debri big enough o bind antibodies and so it elicits an immune response, with macrophages moving in to gobble up the debris. Now when I say TNF I don't mean TNF synthesised by bacteria and injected into the tumour, I mean TNF released by the immune system as as part of an overall ordered immune response.

    Now I read about the above before apoptosis or cell suicide was discovered In this scenario the cells would prepare for death some time before TNF was released or without TNF even being released. With apoptosis bags inside the cell called lysosomes full of digestive enzymes called acid hydrolases expand in size and burst, releasing these enzymes into the cell and begin to digest it. Thus the cell dies in a very orderly manner, breaking down in a sequence such that the fragments of cell are single macro molecules, eg amino acids, fatty acids, nucleic acids etc, that can be recycled by surrounding normal cells or enter the bloodstream and be taken up by cells right throughout the body. There is no inflammatory immune response at the tumour site.

    Even if only full oxygen tension was restored by the bloodvessels, now free of gunk and dilating instead of constricting as stress disappears, this rise in 02 would cause the cells to redifferentiate or step by step go back to becoming normal cells and, following the normal path of differentiation, finally reach what is called Terminal Differentiation, switch on apoptosis and die, the tumour blood vessel cells doing likewise.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2012

    To Zuvant on the mouse ketone diet experiment.

    With these mouse experiments, I imagine that the tumours would be induced with a lab carcinogen and lab protocols, not even thinking about the effects of lab stress on the animals as it's not even seen as relevant.  The inability of the tumour cells to metabolise ketomes is seen as a defect in the mitachondria which it is not, it is the cells dedifferentiating, something that is now regarded as wrong thinking as it smacks of Larmarkism.  The diet of KetoKal doesn't limit their blood glucose anywhere near enough to kill even very malignant cells.  They were saying that this should be something to consider further experimentation in the future 20 years ago.  They don't really want the experiment to succeed as their is no money in it therefore no funding from the only source, big pharma.  So what they'll come up with is the conclusion that a ketone diet could prove to be an effective adjunct to be used with conventional chemotherapy, thereby throwing a bone to the naturopathic minded individual and making sure that big pharma keeps a firm grip on 'treatment' and the undertaker happy. Unless a mouse experiment is conducted properly with the end in site being total remission then it's not worth two bob and no lab is gonna do that because they would be cutting theit own throats.  Imagine the millions out of work, research labs closed, hospitals becoming museums, at a time when the world economy is hanging over a cliff.  Trouble is nobody with cancer is going to risk trying a full ketone diet, and NO conventional treatment, without support for the idea coming from researchers and while the oncologist, his surgeon and aneasthatist mate are saying 'If you don't get that tumour removed soon it'll metastasise right through you and it'll be beyond treatmen't'.  Without at least one sucessful remission to inspire...  That's why my post 'A Case of TOTAL Remission' was removed.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2012

    To Cheery on my hogwash.

    Go tell that to all of the animals in the wild who go in and out of ketosis all the time.  What I would suggest to all of the knockers is that they look to NATURE and learn of her ways as she is infinitely wiser than all of the scientists in the world put together.  For a start animals in the wild are locked in to seasonal change of temperature, sunlight, food.  We aren't.  You don't say what drugs you have been on, exposure to industrial chemicals, chlorinated water, pseudoestrogens such as plasticisers in water pipelines and bottles.  Did you use Ames Ketostix to test for ketones in your urine.  How much did you backslide when going to outings.  I had no moodswing whatsoever when I did my ketone diet which went for about eighteen months.  I'll try to inject a bit more humour in my tedious diatribe to cheer you up, Cheery. 

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2012

    To JennT 28

    I aimed my research on 500 Cancer researchers every year for about 12 years at the Lorne cancer conference and there was NOBODY I could talk to about this stuff because most were molecular biologists who did not even know simple inorganic chemistry.  An oncologist and a toxicologist told me they had not studied chemistry.  They are all looking for drug targets, applied and no pure science.  I am also a Larmarkian heretic, the Antichrist of biological science world wide.  (How's that for a bit of Schizophrenia.)  For years I wrote little booklets and distributed them at the Cancer and Genome conferences and these went back home with the delegates fom all over the world.  Ketosis is biochemistry with inorganic chemistry to back it up, endocrinology, heamatology, physiology, plant and soil physiology and ecology and on and on.  It is most certainly metabolism, an understanding of every single mechanism and metabolic pathways because miss just ONE important one an miss the whole point entirely.  Yet delegates at both conferences told me that biochemists no longer study metabolism.  Probably because they can just go online and check up the little bit they need to conduct an experiment.  I have yet to see online all of the major metabolic pathways together on one map.  Useless!!!  I had no option than stuff it all into my head beginning forty years ago because there was no online.  Was Galileo's theory put to peer review.  Yeah, shut up or get burned at the stake.  He has my fullest sympathy.

  • cheery
    cheery Member Posts: 311
    edited April 2012

    Nodules

    I'm sorry if my post caused you any offense, it was meant to be a tongue in cheek comment.

    I sincerely enjoyed reading your posts even though I may not completely agree with them. Being very science challenged, your posts are indeed very tedious and laborious to read. FYI, I normally  need 3-4 tries before I can understand themEmbarassed. But persevere I will, as I find them refreshing. 

    I do think the suggestion to start a blog will be ideal as it will be difficult to search for your thread once they move out of the active topics. Please don't take it as I'm trying to push you out of this forum as this is not my intention. You can do both, ie have a blog and continue posting here as you like. 

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2012

    I would like to offer my sincerest thanks to all of the highly competent psychiatric diagnosticians present in this forum at their conclusion that I am a schizophrenic. However, my condition is a far more virulent form and extremely rare, (so rare in fact that only I have it) disorder called MENS (messianic egomaniacal narcissistic syndrome). There is a med for it called thallium (rat poison) but I refuse to take it. So you are right, I am off my meds. Because I am the only person alive that has this condition only I am competent to diagnose it making me the greatest shrink in the unknown Universe. Friends tell me that I have a Jesus Christ complex. I hotly contest this ridiculous diagnoses. It was HE who had a Paul Hill complex. To quote the great LSD deranged philosopher Allan Watts. 'I f I appear to be dogmatic and authoritarian it is purely for the sake of clarity. I do not wish to appear to be an oracle'. I'm now looking for a second opinion as to my diagnoses of me. Unfortunately as only I am competent to give a second opinion of me a row has broken out between us and now we just leave each other notes. Eh!!!

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2012

    Thanks Cheery.

    Your comment really means a lot me as if a holocaust might be coming to an end at last.  I'm sorry I got a bit heavy.  I was getting such a bucketing from all over I was actually contemplating a sex change.  I figured that if I shaved the beard off, got ponced up in drag, called myself Paula and snorted some helium to raise the pitch of my voice that might do the trick.   If that didn't work and as I couldn't afford a surgeon the local butcher is a dab hand with the knife.  A coupla bottles of whiskey for anaesthetic and a red hot branding iron to cauterise the wound, just like they do to young bulls and I'd be apples.  A bucket of estrogen to round things off then a quick consultation with Germaine Greer to see if she approved and I could hit the world stage as the most militant feminist in history.  Thanks.   

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 1,393
    edited April 2012

    Oh dear, Paul, I had to delete most of what I wrote since your posts were deleted. I thought you were having a joke.  You're sense of humour seems intact anyway.

    I love listening to the recordings of Allan Watts.  Such a refined accent and a brilliant mind.  He spoke like someone who's fully realised or "awakened".  Shame he struggled so much with his relationships.

    Can you tell us how you decided that Diabetes type 1 could be reversed?  That's quite a claim. I believe they've managed to regenerate the damaged pancreatic cells using the person's own stem cells.  Otherwise it's pretty much impossible.

  • cheery
    cheery Member Posts: 311
    edited April 2012

    Joy

    hmm..I didn't see Nodules last few posts.. but having Australian friends, I too was also wondering if it's due to the unique Australian sense of humour..

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 1,393
    edited April 2012

    Cheery, it was very tongue in cheek as he addressed some comments from many posts back.  I couldn't possibly break confidence as the mods decided it was not for public knowledge though I couldn't see anything offensive about it.  I can't remember what the second post was at all as I was replying to the first one which was partly in response to my earlier comment. 

    It was not in any way about your post and I'm sure you were not mentioned in either post.  I can see it would be frustrating having a post deleted immediately following yours, so rest assured. Still laughing at the humour though. Wish I'd written some notes to myself about the content. LOL

  • cheery
    cheery Member Posts: 311
    edited April 2012

    Thanks vm Joy.

    I was hoping to pick his brains on the Okinawan diet in Japan where they have a high number of centenarians. Okinawan diet is rice-based, similiar to Chinese, and hence a very high carbo diet..

    I too believe we should be looking and studying at the "7 habits" of long terms survivorsSmile and yes, I read Ian Gawler as recommended by my Australian friends! 

  • luv_gardening
    luv_gardening Member Posts: 1,393
    edited April 2012

    I heard on the radio many months ago that the Japanese centenarians were in fact those who had died long ago and their deaths not noted in the longevity studies.  They had been hugely embarrassed about this lapse in their records.  I don't know if they were talking about Okinawa.  A search of key words might uncover the story.

  • candygurl
    candygurl Member Posts: 130
    edited April 2012

    Joy, all of Paul's recent humorous posts  have been deleted by a moderator. I guess someone really wants him banned, again. Wink

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2012

    I do not wish him banned, if we could only vote.  I find his information difficult to follow but still realize insights that I need to hear in everything.  I hope he is copy, saving everything.

  • cheery
    cheery Member Posts: 311
    edited April 2012

    Thanks Joy for the heads up. I did not reply earlier as I've been searching online without success thus far. Yes, I'm quite IT challenged! lol..

    I do recall, however, watching a doco where they'd interviewed an Okinawan centenarian and ending with a note saying the lifestyle of young Okinawans has since changed to be more Westernised these days. Hence, this longevity trait would probably cease in the coming years. 

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