HER2 + no chemo

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dyekim1
dyekim1 Member Posts: 4

I am so confused. Last year at this time I was diagnosed with HER-2-NEU 3*Positive Breast cancer. It was invasive but only Stage 1 and no lymph node involvement. I was first told it was 1cm or less, but when sent to  breast cancer center it was found to be much larger. The surgery showed it to be 5-6cm in size. The invasive part was small. This was all in the left breast. At the time the surgeon also thought I had a spot on the right. MR guided biopsy said no. They recommended Lt mastectomy due to the size. I chose to have Bilateral. After surgery my surgeon said this was a good choice because the right showed rapidly changing cells and we would have been going back in later for this. My lymph nodes on the left were neg. They did not check the right.

 The confusion is the follow up treatment. No chemo and no herceptin. I know I should probably be thrilled with this, but I guess I just want to make sure that every thing that should have been done to fight this was done. The surgeon recommended delayed reconstruction because he really thought I would have chemo/radiation. I am afraid of a reoccurrance. I just wonder if I should have pressed for more aggressive treatment. I know you all probably think I am crazy. Not sure...have any of you had this same experience?

 I am now getting ready to have my 2nd reconstruction surgery and I know they say if it comes back it will most likely be on the skin and I will be able to see it. Will I ever not be afraid of it coming back.

Comments

  • AlaskaAngel
    AlaskaAngel Member Posts: 1,836
    edited March 2012

    What was the size of the invasive part and what were its characteristics for ER, PR, etc.?

    I think you should seek another opinion, especially If it is ER- and PR- IDC.

    AlaskaAngel

  • dyekim1
    dyekim1 Member Posts: 4
    edited March 2012

     The invasive part was small, less that 1 mm I think. Estrogen neg., Progesterone neg. (CERB B-2) 3+Pos. (3 of 3+ membranous cytoplasmic staining of greater than 30%, K9-67 Proliferation index unfavorable 23.66% of tumor, P-53 Unfavorable (46.62% of tumor cell nuclei)

  • lago
    lago Member Posts: 17,186
    edited March 2012

    I would get a 2nd opinion. This might be correct but HER2+ hormone negative is more aggressive and you don't have hormone therapy for 5 years like us triple positive folds have.

    Granted this is so small no chemo/herceptin might be the right course but you want to be sure.

  • AlaskaAngel
    AlaskaAngel Member Posts: 1,836
    edited March 2012

    The recommendation seems very reasonable, but I agree with lago that to get more of a comfort level for your own peace of mind, a second opinion would also be worthwhile.

  • Laura5133388
    Laura5133388 Member Posts: 577
    edited March 2012

    I agree with the others about a second opinion, as Her2+ is very aggresive.

  • LouLou40
    LouLou40 Member Posts: 180
    edited March 2012

    I think your dx would fall into DCIS with microvasion if your invasive compnent is less than 1mm.

    There is a forum thread where a lot of women have discussed DCIS with a her2 microvasion and what treatment was recommended for them, might be useful to have a read there.

  • lovehertons
    lovehertons Member Posts: 58
    edited March 2012

    Dyekim, we have your exact initial diagnosis.   Di's tumor was 6 cm with .1mm of microinvasion.  No nodes.  ER-/Pr-/Her2+.  We were put at Stage 1a.  93% chance of 5year survival.  81% of no recurrance in 5 years.  With Chemo the odds went to 94% and 88%.  We opted out of chemo.  We also didn't read a lot of stories.  Di had a bmx with Temp expanders.  Also note that Di had a previous history of Hodgkins(20 years ago).  This may relate in our story, the doctors can't answer that.

    We are the unlucky % as Di was diagnosed with extensive lung mets less than 6 months later.   We still don't know whether or not we would have had chemo.  We certainly don't know if it would have changed the outcome.  Life is funny that way I guess.  Chemo is not easy, to put it bluntly it sucks.  I would get a second opinion and from one of the upper tier cancer institutes.  It will cost but I believe it would be well worth the money.   I don't know if this helps or scares the h... out of you, but we felt you needed to hear it.  Feel free to PM us or we will follow this thread if you have any more questions.

    Pat and Diane.

  • Hindsfeet
    Hindsfeet Member Posts: 2,456
    edited March 2012

    lovehertons...I fine your story of interest in that Di had such a tiny invasive and 6 months later she is dx with lung cancer. Is the lung cancer a new cancer or breast cancer mets? I read that it takes a long time for cancer to grow so to have found such extensive cancer in her lungs makes me wonder if the cancer was in the lungs before he 6 months?

    I am also 1a although my surgical path report was 1.8 Cem. I'm only doing herceptin with the hopes it is enough to stop possible. micromets.

    dyekim1...I would get a second opinion as well.

  • lovehertons
    lovehertons Member Posts: 58
    edited March 2012

    Yeah, evebarry, its the breast cancer.  Di lights up a PET scan like a christmas tree.  I think the early radiation from the Hodgkins may have caused the cancer to move more aggressively.  My humble opinion, not a lot of research here.  We feel like we have been hit by a truck.  We definately are not the norm, just relaying our story.

    Keep vigilant all, Pat

  • orange1
    orange1 Member Posts: 930
    edited March 2012

    i would think the presence or absence of LVI (lympho-vascular invasion) may influence the recommendation.  Generally the presence of LVI adds risk approximately equivalent to one positive node.  No LVI - the risk is lower.

    I agree - get the second opinion to help put your mind at ease... the worry does diminish with time.

    Best of luck to you. 

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited March 2012

    It might be too late to commence chemo/herceptin - if you get a second opinion, they should be able to tell you this.

  • lago
    lago Member Posts: 17,186
    edited March 2012

    One thing to remember local recurrance is very different from distant recurrance. If it comes back in the skin/scar/breast areas (local) they can treat to cure.

  • Sassa
    Sassa Member Posts: 1,588
    edited March 2012

    Dyekim,

    What country are you in?  Sometimes that makes a difference in the medical treatment you receive.

    My diagnosis was the same as yours.  Luckily, I went in early for a mammogram as I wanted a breast reduction.  My IDC was not found by the mammogram or ultrasound but I was told to come back in for a followup mammogram in 6 months.  My primary care physician sent me instead to a surgeon who did an excisional biopsy of the area and an extremely aggressive tiny IDC was found.

    The tumor was so fast growing that if I had waited the additional three months for my yearly mammogram, I most likely would have been stage 4.  Unlike some poster's beliefs, not all breast cancer is slow growing.  Being hormone negative and HER2 positive ups the grow rate of the cells to very aggressive.

    We threw the book at the breast cancer: mastectomy, AC, and 1 year of herceptin.

    Five years later, I am still NED.  If possible get a second opinion.  Your life might depend on it.

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited March 2012

    dyekim1, it does sound as though your diagnosis is DCIS-Mi, i.e. DCIS with a microinvasion.  The following discussion threads about microinvasive HER2+ tumors, or very tiny HER2+ tumors, might be helpful to you:

    Micro-invasive DCIS that is her2+++

    calling all t1A (> 1 mm but < 6 mm) sisters who are HER2+ 

    < 5 mm HER2+ IDC...why NOT chemo???

    lovehertons, I am so sorry about your wife's diagnosis. I can't imagine the shock of going so quickly from Stage IA to Stage IV.  There's no question that HER2+ tumors are aggressive!  The one thing that has me scratching my head is the prognosis that your wife was originally given by her doctor. It doesn't seem right for the diagnosis that your wife had. I too had a microinvasion; mine was the largest that a microinvasion can be, at 1mm in size (anything larger than 1mm is no longer considered a microinvasion and moves up to being a t1a tumor). I've done a lot of reading on treatment and prognosis for those with microinvasions.  The information that you were given, "93% chance of 5 year survival.  81% of no recurrance in 5 years" is completely different than anything that I've ever read or heard. The overall survival rates for those who have DCIS-Mi is about 98%; at 5 years, I believe it is well over 99%.  That includes both HER2+ and HER2- microinvasions but often microinvasions aren't even tested for HER2 status because they are too small to be accurately tested (which also leads me to wonder how could your wife's tissue could be tested if the invasive component was only 0.1mm in size).  The numbers that you were given seem more consistent with an HER2+ tumor that is a larger; perhaps a T1b or T1c tumor (5mm to 2cm). I realize that even the very tiniest invasive cancer can lead to mets in rare cases, but the prognosis data that you were given suggested a risk that was much higher than seems logical for such a small tumor. Considering that your wife's cancer unfortunately did progress, I can't help but wonder if the oncologist knew that the diagnosis was more serious than just a tiny microinvasion but for some reason didn't give you the full story.

     

  • lovehertons
    lovehertons Member Posts: 58
    edited March 2012

    Its very possible that I have my figures incorrect.  I do know that it was a 6cm tumor of dcis with 1 of 13 cross sections showing 0.1 mm of microinvasion.  He may tweaked the numbers due to the previous history of Hodgkins or I just have them wrong.

    I realize that we are in the 1-2% of really unlucky people.  It has really been a shock to both of us.  I tell our story with much trepidation.  I know we are on the outlying area of the bell curve.  But let me tell you all that the statistics mean very little to us now.  I think we took the original dx to lightly, we didn't stay vigilant.  We didn't call the oncologist when we didn't get the Her2+ test results.(Got those about 2 weeks before Di developed a "cold") 

    What we know is we didn't do all we could to determine what our options were.  Would it have made any difference, I doubt it(at least that what I tell myself so that I can sleep at night).

    Good luck to you all, this disease has changed us drastically and a cure can never come soon enough.

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited March 2012

    lovehertons, thanks for the additional info. As terrible as your situation is, I think you can take comfort in the fact that it's almost certain that there's nothing that you or Di could have done that would have made a difference.  If the mets were smaller and were discovered after 18 months or a couple of years, then it's quite possible that a more aggressive treatment might have been successful.  But with extensive lung mets discovered after only 6 months, it suggests that the mets were probably pretty firmly entrenched right from the start - a situation where chemo and Herceptin wouldn't have made a difference. That's small comfort, I'm sure, but I honestly do think that's true.

    Di did have the misfortune of being one of the unlucky ones - most women with such a small tumor won't develop mets, even if the tumor is HER2+ - but her story is still an important one to tell so it's good that you are speaking up.  Everyone should realize that no matter how small the invasive tumor, there is a risk of mets.  And those who have HER2+ invasive tumors should realize that HER2+ is aggressive and presents a greater risk than an HER2- tumor, whatever size cancer you have. That doesn't mean living in fear or always waiting for the other shoe to drop, but whatever the diagnosis and whatever the treatment, we all have to be vigilant and continue to get our checks and tests and see our doctors. 

  • greenacres
    greenacres Member Posts: 144
    edited March 2012

    I would definately get a 2nd opinion on this.  Her2+++ is a very aggressive cancer and regardless of hormone status, you need to have Herceptin and Chemotherapy.  I went through six cycles of Taxol and Carboplatin and weekly Herceptin infusions.  I didn't have a choice.....because of the Her2, this is what I was told my treatment would be if I wanted any chance at beating this. I wish you the best of luck.

  • dyekim1
    dyekim1 Member Posts: 4
    edited March 2012

    I guess I just don't know what to do. My husband thinks I should just feel lucky and go with the odds. Maybe he is right. I just can't get rid of this sinking feeling that I didn't do enough to make sure. I know that the odds are in my favor. I just keep hearing the Oncologist saying..."It was a really nasty little buger and glad we found it when we did. A few months and things could have been much worse." Probably worrying about nothing. The fact that my dad was diagnosed with Pancreatic cancer shortly after my diagnosis...probably isn't helping anything either. They tried a whipple procedure...but he is now at stage 4. Maybe just too much going on to think clear...

  • SpecialK
    SpecialK Member Posts: 16,486
    edited March 2012

    dyekim - sorry about your diagnosis, and also sorry about your Dad and his pancreatic CA dx.  I can certainly relate - lost both my dad and brother to stage IV lung CA and stage IV bile duct CA, respectively.  It would be natural for you to be feeling somewhat vulnerable in light of your Dad's dx. If your surgery was last year at this time I don't know if there is any benefit to chemo/herceptin at this point, but a second opinion could provide that information.  Generally speaking, most MO don't like to have more than 12 weeks between surgery and the start of chemo.  If you are feeling unsure, I would talk to another MO, and at least get some additional clarification.  You might want to change your stats at the bottom of your signature line - right now it looks like you had IDC that measured 5cm, which would be inconsistent with a stage 1 dx.  You can change it to 5cm DCIS, with IDC microinvasion, which is more accurate.

  • Alicethecat
    Alicethecat Member Posts: 535
    edited March 2012

    Hi Kim

    You'll see from my signature that my diagnosis is very similar to yours.

    After a mastectomy on my right breast, I'm having 4 x FEC, 4 x Taxotere with Herceptin starting in round two of the Taxotere and 16 x radiation. Based in the UK, the NHS is funded by tax payers and treatment is 'free'.

    I am puzzled why your oncologist has suggested no chemo or radiation...

    Could you consider getting a second opinion?

    Warm wishes

    Alice

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