Risk question and visit to MO

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LWA
LWA Member Posts: 39

Hi, all--

My surgeon has mentioned a couple of times that he thinks my 10-year risk for DCIS recurrence is about 4%, that my risk of a new BC is about 6%, and that he therefore doesn't think tamoxifen would buy me much. It's my strong preference not to take tamoxifen, but I don't want to make an ill-considered decision there.

As discussed previously here, my surgeon isn't really the person to ask; this is an MO thing. My surgeon recommend an MO he said was "even handed," and when I said I might want to see two of them, he mentioned another name, but said the second MO would certainly pressure me to take tamoxifen, being more conservative.

To make a long story short, I thoroughly disliked the even-handed MO. For one thing, he hadn't even opened my chart before we had our $500 appointment, and he refused to give me a straight answer to one simple question. Very irritating.

But the thing that is bugging me most is that he said I have a 13% risk of a new BC (not a recurrence) over FIVE years, which is more or less quadruple what my surgeon said, and what I've seen here and other places online.

It has finally dawned on me that my risk of a whole new BC is probably higher than my risk of a recurrence per se, weirdly enough. And I got to wondering: Do you have to ADD those two numbers together? If you have a 4% recurrence risk over ten years plus a 6% risk of a new cancer over the same period, does that give you a 10% risk total, or does it not work that way?

The obvious thing to do here would be to see a second MO, but I do have a big deductible as of this year, which is a disincentive; besides, if this was the "even-handed" MO, I'm scared to see the not-even-handed one. :-)

I'm 49, with no relatives with breast cancer, and believe that my risk of a new cancer is double that of someone my age with no relatives with breast cancer who has never had BC, ergo, I come up with about a 5-6% risk of a new cancer over the next ten years, which also happens to be what my surgeon said.

Sorry so long! My questions:

--Do you add together your recurrence risk plus your risk of a new cancer, or just go with whichever is higher? (Beesie, are you here? :-)

--Is my MO crazy? Can anyone make sense of his number?

--Would I be crazy just to proceed per what my surgeon said?

Thanks!

Linda

Comments

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited January 2012

    Linda, I was 49 when I was diagnosed.  My oncologist told me that my risk to develop a new BC was about double that of the average woman my age.  A that time, the risk level of the 'average 49 year old woman' was estimated to be 11%.  So that put my risk at 22%.

    This 22% risk is spread over the rest of my expected lifetime - 41 years to age 90. So it works out to just over 0.54% (just over a 1/2 a percent) risk per year. However because the risk to develop BC increases as we age, I actually face more of that 22% risk when I'm older than I do now. Here's the data on risk by age:

    from age 20 through age 29 . . . . . . 0.05 percent (often expressed as "1 in 2000")
    from age 30 through age 39 . . . . . . 0.43 percent (often expressed as "1 in 233")
    from age 40 through age 49 . . . . . . 1.45 percent (often expressed as "1 in 69")
    from age 50 through age 59 . . . . . . 2.38 percent (often expressed as "1 in 42")
    from age 60 through age 69 . . . . . . 3.45 percent (often expressed as "1 in 29")
    from age 70 through age 89 . . . . . . 4.44 percent (often expressed as "1 in 23")

    TOTAL LIFETIME RISK: 12.2 percent (often expressed as "1 in 8")

    So this suggests that during the 10 years of my 50s (which I'm half way through now), my risk is 4.76%, during my 60s my risk will be 6.9% and from age 70 till 90, my risk will be 8.88%. (The total is a bit less than 11% because lifetime risk estimates have dropped from 12.8% to 12.2% in the 5 years since I was diagnosed.)  

    One important thing to know about risk is that we "leave risk behind". What that means is that once we are past our 20s, 30s, 40s, etc., we don't have to worry about the risk that we faced during those years. So although my annual risk goes up as I get older, my total risk goes down. Today, at age 55, my remaining lifetime risk is now in the range of 18% - 20% (depending on whether I use my original estimates from 6 years ago or the latest risk data).  

    My oncologist used "double the risk" as a rule of thumb; I've seen women here who've been told something similar, some who've been given lower numbers, and some who've been given higher numbers (3 or 4 times the risk, rather than double). It's important to also factor in any personal or family health issues that might increase one's risk.  Whatever you come up with, it's just an estimate. The truth is that it's impossible to know what any one individual's risk really is. The reason risk is thought to be higher than average is simply because we don't know what caused the BC to develop in the first place therefore we have to assume that the cause may still be a factor and might make it more likely for BC to develop again. There's not a lot of precision to that.  Having said that, a 13% risk to develop a new BC over the next 5 years seems pretty steep, no matter what assumptions one uses.

    As for recurrence risk, this is a separate and completely different calculation and a separate and completely different risk.  Recurrence risk affects only the breast that had BC, and the level of risk depends on the pathology of the cancer and the surgical margins. And while a recurrence can happen even years into the future, most recurrences happen within the first 5 years and certainly within the first 10 years.  So if you start with a 4% recurrence risk, after 10 years you'll like have only a fraction of a percent risk left.  Recurrence risk and the risk to develop a new primary BC are not additive. You have an X% risk that one thing will happen, and a Y% risk than another thing will happen.  Hopefully neither happen, but it's possible that both could happen. The two risks are independent of each other.

    Hope this all makes sense and helps! 

  • LWA
    LWA Member Posts: 39
    edited January 2012

    Thank you very much, Beesie.

    It does kind of sound like you have to add the two kinds of risk together--if I have a 5% risk of this plus a 4% risk of that over the same time period, I've got a 9% risk of SOME kind of breast event, right? (Wondering if that's where my MO was coming from.)

    No one seems to think of it that way, though?

    Linda

  • LWA
    LWA Member Posts: 39
    edited February 2012

    The verdict, finally! I swear, the hardest part of this whole thing has been deciding about tamoxifen or not.

    I spoke with my surgeon and ran the MO's numbers by him, and he said, "That's too high" and "I don't know where he got that from." I've decided to proceed based on my surgeon's numbers, which are closely in line with what I've seen anywhere else, and have decided to skip the tamoxifen--I am pretty sure I'd worry much more about what it might be doing to me than I would about a recurrence of BC, or new BC.

    I mentioned to my surgeon that the MO hadn't even opened my chart (as evidenced by the fact that he had no idea I'd had intraoperative radiation, a pretty fundamental fact regarding my treatment to date) and my surgeon said, "Really! I'm going to make a note of that and make use of that information in the future," which made me feel better. I'd been contemplating sending a letter to my MO saying what I objected to, but since my surgeon totally heard me on that point and evidently agreed, I probably won't bother.

    Hope all are doing and feeling well! Thanks again for all your help and support.

    Linda

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