Is my surgeon undertreating?
Hi,
I had a lumpectomy with intraoperative radiation on 12/20/11, and my BS is of the opinion that that is all the radiation that is needed, though my RO (who is lovely) said that if I would feel more comfortable adding three weeks of external radiation to get the lowest possible recurrence risk, he'll be happy to do that. (My BS more or less said, "Why would you do that? The point of having intraoperative radiation is so you can skip the external radiation," though I know that certainly some people do add the external radiation, with the intraoperative radiation serving as the boost, so no need to have one at the end of treatment.)
Meanwhile, my BS also said he didn't see that much point in my taking tamoxifen--he said once you've had a lumpectomy and radiation, tamoxifen would lower your risk by about an additional 30%, but if your recurrence risk is, say, 6%, is it worth going through all of that to get it down to 4%? Which does make sense.
I have read here and there about DCIS being overtreated, but I also want to make sure mine doesn't get undertreated.
I will meet with my RO next week and my BS the week after that, and then I think I'm going to see the surgeon who seems to be considered the best breast surgeon in these parts and ask her for a second opinion on my course of treatment. I would have seen her already, but she was all booked up into January, and I sort of wanted to proceed sooner, in part because I have a whopping deductible starting in the new year. I interviewed three surgeons and am comfortable with the one I chose.
I'm hoping the second-opinion surgeon will concur that the intraoperative radiation was enough and also that tamoxifen wouldn't buy me that much more, but I thought I'd throw this out here in case any of you have any thoughts. This site is an incredible resource!
BTW, I had a surface-vein blood clot in my leg a year or so ago (not a deep-vein blot clot). Also, when I was on progesterone a couple of different times to deal with thickened uterine lining and/or dysfunctional uterine bleeding, I had dreadful side effects and had to stop in both cases after about five days. I'm thinking those might both be arguments against taking tamoxifen.
Thank you in advance!
Linda
Comments
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I think you should seek the opinion of a medical oncologist- regarding the Tamafoxin. Surgeons, Radiologists and oncologists all have different roles and perspectives.
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Linda,
Your signature line says that your DCIS was 1cm in size. Was it a single focus of DCIS or was it multi-focal? What was the actual pathology, i.e. was there any comedonecrosis present? And how large were the surgical margins?
What determines your recurrence risk is the size of the tumor, the grade and presence of comedonecrosis, whether there is a single tumor or whether the tumor is multifocal, and most importantly of all, the size of the surgical margins. Recurrence risk after a lumpectomy for DCIS can be as low as around 4% or as high as around 60% - it all depends on those factors. So what additional treatments you may require after surgery depends on the specific pathology of your DCIS.
As momof3boys suggested, you should see a medical oncologist. A surgeon's area of expertise is surgery - not post-surgery treatment. A radiation oncologist's area of expertise is radiation therapy - not other treatments. The role of the medical oncologist is to look at the pathology, assess your risk and then discuss with you the pros and cons, and the benefits and risks, of each possible post-surgical treatment. A MO is the person who can tell you if your current treatment path (surgery, intraoperative radiation only, no Tamox) is the appropriate treatment to get your recurrence risk down to a level that you can live with or if this might leave you with a recurrence risk that is higher than you would be comfortable with.
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Thanks, momof3boys; you're right. I will do that.
And, thanks, Beesie. After surgery, the tumor proved to be 1.5 cm (was interested to learn they say "tumor" even if there's no lump). It is a single focus. The report from my SNB says "nuclear high-grade with comedo necrosis." When my doctor gave me the report after surgery, he didn't have that pathology report in front of him, but he said the margins were plenty big enough for a 1 on the Van Nuys scale.
Sounds like it is unanimous on seeing a MO; will do. I have a couple of names from the nurse educator at the breast health center, where my mammograms and biopsy were done, and I will also ask my surgeon who he recommends; it might be one of the people whose names I already have.
Thanks again,
Linda -
Interesting that the RO is bringing up the idea now of addditional radiation.
It is my understanding that the effectiveness of IORT (as well as other forms of partial breast radiation) is based on the data that shows the majority of re-occurances are in the same general area of the breast as the original occurance. So if you had IORT to take care of that, why would you want additional radiation, unless they found something additional in your pathology that increased your risk to other parts of the breast. Is it because the tumor size is a bit larger than expected?
I had a lumpectmy and partial breast radiation. My tumor was very small (.3 cm) and had great margins. But my BS wanted me to take Tamox. I declined because according to my RO my reoccurance risk is around 5%, so the side effect risk to me did not seem worth a couple of percentage point.
You asked if your BS is undertreating? For some people, maybe, but for me I would say no. It could be argued that most other BS's error on the side of recommending overtreatment. But there is no question that tamox can reduce risk of reoccurance...lots of studies to back that up. I wish the doctors of this world would lay the data our for us patients a little more logically for us to make a choice, rather than just giving their recommendation and expecting that we will just agree. for some people the piece of mind that comes with doing everything they can do reduce risk of reoccurance is worth the side effects of tamox (even if only a 2% improvement), Others such as me think of it as overtreatment to take it and only get minimal improvement.
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I had DCIS and my breast surgeon wanted to put me on Tamoxifen even after having a mastectomy. The really good oncologist I saw said that given my current health problems, Tamoxifen benefits did not out weigh any good it would do.He also added that since DCIS is only contained within the milk ducts, and my milk ducts are gone, the cancer should be gone as well. The breast surgeon countered back with you never know if a stray cell got left behind or not. She clearly was willing to be more aggressive than the oncologist. However, another health problem popped up that made taking Tamoxifen impossible anyway.
I have an example of one area not knowing about the other....Oncologist prior to BMX, said, oh yes, you should get your ovaries out the same time as your BMX (I have other problems that necessitates the need for that). I met with the breast surgeon and she said oh, no, you do not want to do both at the same time! I deferred, just had my oopherectomy and hysterectomy, and boy am I glad I didn't get both at the same time.
In determining my treatments, I looked carefully at my pathology report, took in the opinions, took my current health issues into consideration, and did what felt like was right for me.
Good luck with your upcoming appts and making your decisions. Your oncologist should sit down, explain all the side effects of each medication or treatment, look at your pathology and health issues, explain it all to help you make a decision.
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Thank you, ej01 and cinnamonsmiles. Your thoughts were reassuring to me and I appreciate your sharing them.
It was not that my RO said, "You should think about having more radiation." It was that after I asked him a million questions about IORT and recurrence, he said that if I would feel more comfortable having some external radiation, we could certainly do that, but he didn't suggest it on his own or push it.
I also had a hysterectomy nine weeks ago and I would definitely not have wanted to have that plus even the lumpectomy and radiation at the same time! (But I sure do wish I'd had my ovaries out. My ovaries and cervix are still in place. If I had but known I'd be diagnosed with hormone-positive BC less than six weeks later ... )
Anyway, thanks again to you both, and happy new year!
(Or, as I have said to a friend or two, given my BC and hysterectomy plus my mother's cancer earlier this year, my sentiment at this point is really more "eff off, 2011." :-)
Linda
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