Victims of the Canadian Healthcare system
Comments
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Ellemint, I was on Tamox for two years and I am on Aromaisin now. I have never been charged. In Alberta these drugs are free to all cancer patients. I have 80% coverage for ativan or other non cancer drugs. I didn't know that other provinces charge for cancer treatment drugs. Have you checked into getting Blue Cross Drug Coverage? You may find that would significantly reduce out of pocket costs. Low income and seniors in Alberta are automatically covered 80% for prescription meds.
Beth -
Also, you can contact the drug makers directly and they will pay the difference. I know of MANY Canadians that have gotten their drugs paid for that way.
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About those dang "death panels" that Palin conjured up to scare American folks away from universal healthcare and about which ellemint opines exist in Canada: surgeons must be extremely conscious of the age and condition of their patients before undergoing life-threatening surgery. It is certainly not true that they won't operate on anyone over 80. Rather, they must assess the odds of the patient (of any age, with any pre-existing conditions) surviving the operation. There are many factors upon which they make their judgment. It's highly probably that Ellemint's mother was denied surgery specifically because her surgeon determined she was unlikely to survive it.
I had thought the death panels myth had had an ignominious death already.....
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OH PLEASE! Give it a rest with the death panel BS!
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My mother was 74 and required a quadruple bypass. Due to other health conditions, the surgical team had to make a risk/reward decision. She did end up having the surgery and survived but they really had to give an overall assessment before going forward with the surgery. We don't have death panels here. I spoke to my doc about the side effects I have from Aromasin. He said if I was 80, there may be a risk/reward/QOL that I could consider but since I am only 50 he highly recommends continuing. If I was 80 I personally would decline it, if the side effects were affecting my QOL.
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My dad was not a victim of a "death panel", he was just a victim of incompetence and bureaucracy, I think. He did live in Ontario, though, the province that Ellemint mentioned. The other relative who had problems lived in British Columbia, and her problems were more quality of life issues than life-threatening ones. Neither of them were forced to pay for their own treatment because they were over 80, but I do suspect that they may have been bumped to the very bottom of the waiting lists that they were on to give somewhat younger people a better chance.
My own experience with the Canadian health care system has been good, so far anyway. Maybe I"m just lucky.
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Barbe, you are right that they have to take risk into account. Even when he finally got treatment, my dad's doctors were very reluctant to do amputation. They said a patient in his 80s couldn't survive such a drastic operation. They turned out to be right. They only did such drastic surgery when there was absolutely no alternative left. I think that if treatment had been started right away, he would never have reached a stage where such drastic surgery is the only alternative.
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Death panels ... WTF? pardon my language.
My dad died suddenly at home from heart failure, about six months after his heart was found to have about 30% function (and declining), due (we suspect) to damage from an MRSA infection sustained while in hospital for pneumonia. The cardiologist wouldn't offer him surgery because his health was seriously compromised by age, prior stroke, diabetes, disability etc. I suppose some might see this as shabby care, age discrmination, systemic failure or (cue the horror) death panels...but the reality was, he was a sick man and invasive action was not medically indicated nor responsible care. And I'm pretty damn certain a U.S. insurance company would have denied him coverage for the procedure too.
By the way, that's an anecdote (not evidence of systemic success or failure).
It is true that finding a primary care physician in Ontario is more difficult than it should be. That is a big problem that needs resolution.
But most of the other complaints I've read about here - while they may be disturbing -- have nothing whatsoever to do with the health care SYSTEM. There are bad doctors everywhere. But personally, I would rather be receiving care from a not-for-profit system that ultimately answers to me (as a citzen and taxpayer) than a for-profit system run by insurance companies, accountable to shareholders.
By the way, support is available through pharma companies here in Canada too - that's how I got neulasta paid for. But let's not confuse that with charity. The companies offset this "goodwill" with exhorbitantly high prices to others covered by insurance. And guess who pays those premiums...
Sorry for the rant, but I will defend to my death (which I hope is a long way away) the ability to get health care when I need it, without having to make painful financial choices, like giving up my home. 'nuf said.
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I can only speak from my own experience and will offer this and wonder how a family without universal health care coverage (Canadian medical care) would fare in the same situation.
Our family income is well south of the Canadian average. We own a small home, have a mortgage but no car payments. My wife worked in the arts and I work in the public school system which means being laid off with no salary for 6 weeks every year. We have two school aged children. We will leave off the table for a moment my children’s health and my own health and deal just with that of my wife.
In the summer of 2003 my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer (stage 3C), had a radical mastectomy with reconstruction, chemotherapy and radiation therapy plus recovery. Cost wise it would have looked roughly like this:
50 doctors visit
150 mammogram
12000 Radical mastectomy with reconstruction
18700 Radiation therapy
15500 Chemotheraphy
8580 Neupogen injections
4280 Recovery in hospital after surgery
So 58560 dollars later my wife could have come home – only we don’t actually have that kind of scratch. At the time the Neupogen was an experimental drug and the government did not cover the cost which drained our bank account but in the end Amgen the manufacturer came through heavily subsidizing the cost for us – yes I went begging. All the numbers (other than for the Neupogen) are ball parked – don’t quote me on them.
That was then. Four years later Lynn had a seizure at work and was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Whoops – not quite free and clear. This time out there was no chemo though which was a good thing. The costs would have also been lower.
2100 Multiple CT scans
1700 Multiple MRI
4800 2x PET/CT
16000 Crainiotomy
3852 Recovery in hospital
9600 Stereotactic radio surgery
The actual number of CT and MRI’s I have lost track of over time but roughly speaking to get over the little bit of nastiness at the end of 2007 and beginning of 2008 we would have been hit with a bill of a little over $38000. This doesn’t even begin to cover the bank of medications that she now has to take and the myriad of emergency room visits and doctors visits in recent months. In simple terms I cannot imagine having to deal with medical bills totaling in excess of 90K in a period of 5 years. We either would have been living on the street or hoping that things got better without medical involvement.
Since 2008 Lynn has had two more crainotomies, 2 rounds of WBRT, MRI's every 3 months, 2 months of intensive care and three months of acute care (physio, occupational and speech therapy) after a brain hemmorhage left her paralyzed and is currently in a palliative care residence all part of our medical care system. Through it all my Lynn received all of her treatment in a timely manner. We never had any complaints about care or treatment and we have kept our house. -
When I was going through diagnosis, surgery, chemo etc, I knew I was blessed to never be at the mercy of an insurance company deciding what I could and could not have. I have seen lots of stories of women worrying and waiting to find out if insurance will cover something. Also have seen many worry about co-pays, deductible etc. This is not to slam our southern neighbours system but I never had those worries and always felt so fortunate in that regard. Breast cancer is a big enough blow to deal with let alone job losses=insurance loss etc. We may not have a perfect system but I truly feel for the women that have been faced with financial challenges during their health care crisis. Every system needs improvement and we, as taxpayers, do get to voice our concerns. I am happy to note that i would have received the same treatment and care as my next door neighbour regardless of our differing socio/economic status.
This is a good Topic and something we can all learn from.
Hugs
Beth -
We live in Ontario. My father-in-law had hip replacement surgery last year and he was 93. My mother-in-law had the same surgery a few years earlier. With her they had to assess the risk vs rewards because she has a heart condition.
I can honestly say my experience with aging parents and the Canadian health care system has been nothing short of wonderful. Even when my own father was taken off life support when he was in his mid 80's, the care was unbelievable. They went out of their way to arrange for a private room for him so our large family could be there day and night. He was given sponge baths and kept clean shaven by the nurses. They checked on him constantly and made sure his final days were comfortable and pain free. We appreciated the care and dignity he was shown right up until his passing.
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As long as they cannot deny me medical care here in Canada should I have signs of a recurrance -- just because I don't have a family doctor or an oncologist.
I mean, even the walk-in clinics can refer you to an oncologist if you've already had aggressive breast cancer and are experiencing symptoms that could signal recurrance and need to be checked out?
Right?
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ellemint, I had my hysterectomy without a family doctor. My pre-op was done in a walk-in clinic and my referreal had been by a walk-in doc. It can be done.
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Setting up new doctors when you move to a new city is never easy, no matter where you live. When I moved to the States I made the decision to stick with most of my Canadian doctors, except for the one that I knew I'd need to see more frequently.
ellemint, I live a bit east of you so the facilities I'm familiar with probably aren't that convenient, but here's one that's not all that far for you and that you could use until you find a family doctor. The advantage is that they have all the testing facilities on-site and they have a quick and direct link to the doctors who work out of the other Trillium hospital locations:
http://www.trilliumhealthcentre.org/programs_services/emergency_services/14HourUrgentCareCentre.php
Or you might find something closer by searching on this site:
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/hco/options.aspx
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Ellemint, my apologies if you already looked into this web site, but there is a program called Health Care Connect where you fill out some basic information, and they work on setting you up with a family doctor in your area as soon as a one becomes available.
Good thing about the program is that they evaluate your health situation and your need for a family physician and prioritize based on that. I would assume that, based on your history, you would be high on their priority list.
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/ms/healthcareconnect/public/overview.aspx
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I got my permanent doc by that need for a pre-op check up. He said as long as I wasn't on Workmen's Comp he'd take me and my DH on. I was only on high blood pressure meds then. I got them through the walk in clinic as well. I'm glad I held out as he is a super doc! We moved cities last Fall, but we've kept our docs. I've been with him for about 9 years now.
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Thanks for those leads ladies---I will check out the possibilities.
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I probably should not have opened this thread. I should have backed away slowly... Turned around... And RUN.
I want to start by saying that the ONTARIO version of the medical system is a double edged sword. I have had some absolutely fantastic experiences and some that make me sick. Try having positive blood work for an uncommon bacterial illness that causes mulch-systemic failure and having more than one Dr insist we don't ave that here, and it must be a false positive.
Try having a Dr dismiss you having taken hours to type information for them, and insist that if blood work is to be done... A prompt time line is not important. "Blood can be kept in the fridge for a year, then tested... and it would still be the same!"... I said "You mean the freezer?" That Dr continued to insist the fridge would do it. It took everything I had to not offer to bring over a steak, put it in his fridge, and wait a year... Then see how it ws doing and the blood that ran off of it.
I got my diagnosis. I got it after being sent for a psych evaluation which lasted 22 minutes and resulted in being told it was normal to be a bit angry and frustrated with the limitations I was dealing with. I got it after sitting there bawling in a walk in clinic waiting to see my own GP. I got it and then 3 months later my GP told me I was wasting her time by dropping off copies of reports to the office. When all I wanted was to drop off the report, but her office staff wouldn't accept it, and insisted I stay... So she accused me of taking valuable time from her other patients. Mmmm yes... I must have been taking up more than my fair share. *eye roll* How dare I stop in after 3 months.
This all said... There are 2 Dr's during my adult years who stand out for me. One I've been with for 14 years. Who has gone through numerous surgeries, and who was more than willing to sit and just talk to me the other day about what is going on right now. To talk about the possibility of hormones causing what is happening. The other spent time with me every 4-8 weeks for 2 years. Put his own butt on the line, and saved my life. When I hobbled into his office my skin was grey, my hair was falling out, I had Bells Palsy, postural tremors, existential tremors, and was in so much pain I would pass in and out of consciousness. Neither of these men have EVER thought I was crazy. They listened to what I had to say, ran their tests, and got to the bottom of things.
There are some amazing and wonderful medical professionals. Just like there are some that need a proctologist to remove their own heads. Reality is... The system is bisaed when you have a cancer concern and are younger. It is an automatic slap down. ESPECIALLY if you dared have another illness previously.
Today... It was suggested that my having anxiety over a major unilateral breast size increase with slight pink discoloration occuring over 2 weeks and lasting 5 weeks now (they were not even going to do a new mammogram after this happened until I spoke up twice), swelling in my auxiliary lymph node, swelling in my left arm that has been slowly progressing for 23 days, and an additional swollen lymph node just above my elbow on the inside of my arm... is something I might need to be checked for. You know... because I must have ANXIETY issues to be concerned about this. I mean honestly... I must be all crazy in my head and I must either be a hypochondriac, or have Munchhausen Syndrome or whatever it is right? The fact that I have photographic evidence can't mean anything. The fact that I am 31 means I am TOO YOUNG to possibly have this caused by cancer. AND I am suppose to jump for joy when I get a... Well the pathology report came back b9 and I don't know what is causing your symptoms. Um ... Ok... So what do we do next? Nothing? Really? *head scratch* and I am suppose to be HAPPY they have NO CLUE what is causing this? *claps hands* Yay! Wait... Even happier that if I had not said something I was to be cut loose with no follow up. *draging out the pom poms I must need for this cheer* Thankfully I spoke up, some more tests will be run to try and figure this out... We'll see how it all turns out.While we wait how about we get some valium or prozac... With some narcotics to relieve the discomfort and pain from the building pressure in my arm. No worries... Once I have those I really won't CARE if I get any more tests, or to the bottom of things. I will be NUMB. From the neck up and the neck down.
I could have said this more kindly but regardless of how I said it. It is how I feel. Those who've only experienced 1 side will feel inclined to think it is one way or the other. I have seen both so I know it is a pot luck of personal issues clouding professional actions. I simply wish the best of luck to all and say... If they want to be that way... Change Doctors. -
Cutter, thank God that you do have a doctor that you like. In Ontario they do tend to "label" us and I once noticed that my file came up as a previous "Psych history". I asked what that was about and a nurse said "Did you have an anxiety attack on such and such a date?" Anxiety attack!!?!?!? Hell NO!! I had a nervous breakdown and came to the ER to have them save me from killing myself!! My Dad was dying of lung cancer, my DH had just been diagnosed with 3 brain tumours and I'd just been shot into instant menopause with a hysterectomy!!! I needed help!!!! I think I surprised the nurse and my OHIP file must have been adjusted because I never saw that come up again.
So, yep, we sometimes get labeled. It's hard to fight against a system that works harder to prove our illness not THERE, than to find something that IS there! Know what I mean???
You will have a tough row to hoe ahead of you, but you'll find as you get older you seem to gain credibility. Once out of child-bearing age, women tend to get pooh-poohed on medically. I saw it time and again. I do not think this is unique to Ontario, though, just the type-casting that the medical field tends to label us with.
I have a GP that I got from a walk-in clinic and just adore!!! Finally!!!! I took years of crap from another doc who used to phone me and tell me that I was lying about drinking because my liver panel was off the charts. I hadn't had any alcohol in 3 years at that point!! He "fired" me for lying!!! Took 2 years, but was worth the wait, to get a better doc.
Good luck to you, sweetie!!!
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Unfortunately people do not realize that anxiety attacks or even asking for the meds means it is a life long label on their file. Hell... I have copies of psych evals saying I am not crazy that I keep tucked away because of the past ones being ordered.
I think the hardest part for me is knowing I am dealing with anxiety right now over this all. Typically I would simply either get to the bottom of things, or do a life style change. Neither seem to be options right now and I was dumb enough to ask the hubby what he thought I should do if the hail mary pass that my one Dr is doing fails... and what he thought I should do about the anxiety crap I was told today. He said in his opinion it can't hurt (has no idea of side effects of those meds) and that I should do it (has no idea it will put me on crazy lady status more then I already am). A part of me knows now that he has said he thinks I should do it... That we'll either fight about it because I will resent him, or I willcave in... And it is the last thing I want to take.
It kills me that our system works the way it does. At this point I don't care what I have. I just want a cause so they can start treatment so I can be better. I am not at all ok with the slightly swollen arm, and "mondobooie" as my friends and I have coined my left one.
As far as the tough row to hoe... Tell me about it. I am already starting it out. The only ones I have credibility with is someone who knows I am not full of it, or nuts. I am not sure if or when that will ever end either. You'd think at this point in my life I wouldn't be considered nutty for speaking up if something is very wrong but I am.
As for type casting... Some of it is funny as all get out. Because I am younger... Over and over I get told I am so young or too young and before any imaging there is the "are you pregnant" question that I end up answering while in a fit of giggles followed by saying if I was it would be a miracle. Supra Cervical Laparoscopic Hysterectomy June 2010. Yet... Regardless of some of them having MET me before, and asked the same question. They ask it again and again because I am comsidered the right age to have children.
I am glad you got one you like from a walk in. I got mine the same way... And am locked in. Unfortunately I can't change as she is part of the largest local group of clinics so no internal switching typically.
Thanks for the wishes of good luck Barbe. I'll take any I can get...
Shell -
Shell, about the pregnant thing, don't take it personally. They HAVE to ask!! I'm 54 in May and they still ask me. I thank them!!!
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Oh I know... Just makes me laugh. It is always good for a doubled over, belly holding giggle.
I thank people when I get carded when I go out still so I totally get the thanking them. I thank places when they card me. ;-)
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My breast cancer experience has been ... well ... I hate to use the word "excellent" 'cause it honestly sucks the big one, but from the time I took my concern to my GP, it was BOOM-BOOM-BOOM. He was on it immediately. In less than two weeks I was mammogrammed, unltrasounded, bloodworked, biopsied and diagnosed. Within the month, I was in surgery (my breast surgeon actually came in on his holidays to do it because, "... you'll feel better and I'll feel better...) I love that man.
Within a month of surgery, I was chest xrayed, bone scanned, Mugga'd, abdominal ultrasounded, bloodworked a few more times. I started chemo within the prescribed time period, received my Neulasta shots on time, met with an RO to discuss treatment, and had an appointment set up with a genetic counsellor.
[And, each time, I was asked if I might be pregnant or thinking about becoming pregnant. I'm 51. Are you INSANE???]Prior to my breast cancer diagnosis, I had been receiving regular mammograms (every two years) since I was 40 years old. I was warned from the beginning that I had dense breast tissue and that this could be problematic. And it was. My last mammogram pre-diagnosis picked up nothing. My diagnostic mammogram was "inconclusive". My ultrasound was "suspicious, but not conclusive". It wasn't until the core biopsy - and good, old-fashioned microscope work - that I was diagnosed.
I can't imagine what the women in the US go through with a breast cancer diagnosis. I've read some of their experiences and my mind is just boggled. It's nerve wracking enough being diagnosed with breast cancer without the added stress of waiting to see if your HMO is going to approve needed tests or procedures. Or gamble with your future with an Oncotype test.
Sure. Our health care system has its weaknesses and its abuses, and its incompetent members, but - by-and-large - we are incredibly lucky to have access to everything we need when we need it. Do we pay for it through-the-nose with taxes? Yep. But I think I'd rather have it this way. The American model just sounds too scarey.
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Totally agree, SelenaWolf.
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I have a friend in Missouri who is a retired nurse. She used to work in a clinic that offered free screenings for cervical/ovarian cancer. She said that it was awful; these poor (quite literally) women would come in to be screened because they knew something was wrong, but didn't have insurance and couldn't afford the test. They would be diagnosed with cancer, then they wouldn't be able to get insurance (even if they managed to scrape together the money) because of a "... pre-existing condition..."
I cannot imagine.
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I am glad it worked so quickly for you Selena... And everyone else the system works for.
That said there are short comings with any system and ours is no exception. Stateside would cost me a fortune but I'd have answers, or the option of a second opinion. Here I am stuck in limbo with a lot of things going on and no answers.
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Cuter, you most certainly CAN have a second opinion!!! Just ask your GP. You have the right. Most Canadians are too polite to ask for second opinions in case we piss of our doc when we decide to stick with him! hehehehehehe
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barbe1958 is right. Ask your GP to refer you for a second opinion. It happens so often, he/she won't think anything of it.
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Nope. See here's the deal. I need copies of certain reports to take with me. I have effectively been stalled for nearly 3 weeks. As of today I was told I will get a call when I can come pick them up.
Trust me... I am really not nearly so polite as I was even 3-4 years ago. I learned my lesson... The problem is I know where I need to go but I also know WHAT I need to take with me. It is the WHAT that is causing the problem.
I am totally NOT going to hijack this thread but if you want to have a better idea of what is going on check my posts. The thread about LE has the list of things I am struggling with... Though not the entirety of the reports, tests, and being taken seriously drama. WARNING... If you look be prepared it is not a pretty list. Right now the only thing I am truly waiting on is Peau D'Orange to happen either right or left to complete the entire set of symptoms my bad girl and mondoboobie have given me. Let's put it that way.
Oh well... At the end of the day I am sure someone will figure it all out. Let's just hope that it's not as bad as it is starting to look. Who am I kidding... It's looked bad for a while and makes most very upset to know the details.
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